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    Default What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Unfortunately, I feel like the answer is that D&D just isn't built for anything not completely combat oriented, and an academic that isn't also a mage isn't combat oriented. A more boring answer might be "rogue with INT skills", which isn't satisfying, either.

    I do think something could be worked out, though. A couple thoughts I have are to draw on things like the ranger's Favored Enemy, where the scholar gets a bonus against specific types of monsters thanks to knowing obscure lore that points out their weaknesses, and adds more creature types as they level up. Another one is the artificer's ability to use any magic item. A scholar might not be able to cast spells or create magic items, but they'd probably know a lot about them, being able to identify and make use of them easier. Bardic Inspiration could also be another mechanic that could we could use for inspiration, no pun intended. Another possibility is using INT for attack and damage rolls with a crossbow (or firearm).

    Really, I don't know that you need a lot of combat-specific abilities to make a class viable. You generally have damage bumps at 5th and 11th level for every class, which we can reason out a justification for. Add in a few other combat abilities, such as granting advantage to allies or imposing vulnerability on an enemy, and it should be sufficient. I'd expect a scholar to lean much more heavily on out-of-combat utility type stuff, not unlike a rogue, really.

    What do you think? What sorts of features would put on a scholar class? What core mechanic would you build them around? What subclasses would you have? Maybe I should take a stab at writing something up...

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I think Grod The Giant made some classes along this vein. Can't find them at the moment, but check his stuff-if I recall correctly, he's already taken a stab at this.
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I don't see why you'd need anything other than Battlemaster/Samurai Fighter with a small dip into Mastermind Rogue, take the Cloistered Scholar background.

    Now you have in and out of combat uses for your book smarts.

    I know this is exactly the boring answer you expected but I just don't see how you'd make a 1-20 class focused purely on scholarly things

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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?
    Thief. Rogue. Sage Background. Proficiencies in History and Arcana, and expertise in one of those (history), with expertise in arcana added at sixth level. Your other two expertise will be Stealth at level 1, Thieve's Tools at level 6.

    Make sure to bump Int a bit to keep it consistent, maybe up to 14.

    There you go. Enjoy.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-16 at 08:10 PM.
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Unfortunately, I feel like the answer is that D&D just isn't built for anything not completely combat oriented, and an academic that isn't also a mage isn't combat oriented.
    Yep. In D&D, every class is given a combat role from the get-go, and that's the chassis that exploration/social items are tacked onto. Wizards are the de facto scholar class of the D&D world, because if you had a scholar that DIDN'T use magic, it would just feel like a wizard with pieces taken out. Even the rogue, which you're using as an example of utility over combat, has a class ability list that's mostly combat stuff. You're right - with things like Expertise and Reliable Talent, they stand head and shoulder over the other classes in terms of out-of-combat utility, but that's only because the bar isn't set very high. Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Slippery Mind, Elusive - combat, combat, combat.

    "Non-magical scholar" feels a bit like an NPC class, or like one of those TCE sidekick classes. Granted, they'd probably have very good bonuses to all the knowledge skills, some academic tool proficiencies, and some nifty utility abilities for the purposes of translating languages or knowing flavor info on everything you encounter, but that might be the size of it. Plus there are a lot of different ways that you could use background in conjunction with certain classes that already exist to make a scholarly type.

    If someone told me I had to make a legit character class that was a non-magical scholar or else I wouldn't get the million dollars, I'd start with the core fantasy of why a player would want to be a non-magical scholar, and work from there. The nice thing about wizards (and really, spellcasters in general) is that their knowledge is their power. Knowing things isn't just an occupation for them - with magic, their knowledge is a tangible, measurable force capable of imposing their will on the world. So if I had great knowledge but DIDN'T have magic, I'd be working off of the idea that I'm not so much a mover-and-shaker, as I am a support character. I lend my expertise to my allies, to help inform their decisions, guide their courses of action, and generally be an all-around repository of useful data. But unlike the bard, who can use a touch of magic to support anything and everything (i.e. even Stealth or Sleight of Hand), my focus would be more on a) combat things (or else what's the scholar's point of being around) and b) direct knowledge things, such as Arcana, Medicine, and so on.

    So I suppose the best I could come up with would be something like Scholar's Lore, where the scholar uses their tactical know-how and/or knowledge of the enemy's weak points to do a ranged version of the Help action. Which is pretty much like that one ability the Mastermind subclass already has, except maybe you'd expand this. Like at higher levels, you could use it as a reaction to give a friend advantage on a saving throw? Or something? And then subclasses could refine the field of knowledge and things you could use Scholar's Lore on, like the Tactician, the Naturalist, and so on.

    But see, even then, Tactician sounds like a fighter sub, Naturalist sounds like a watered-down druid, and so on. This is a tough puzzle, and I think the solution might be non-magical scholars are better as NPCs than as PCs. Unless you're playing one of those campaigns where everyone's playing an NPC class.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Is your scholar an adventurer? If they spend their time on scholarly pursuits then where do they learn the survival and combat skills suitable to an adventurer?

    A world, even D&D, is full of far more people, backgrounds, careers, pursuits, hobbies than the adventurers that make up the bulk of those willing (and trained) to risk life and limb for the rewards of knowledge, treasure, magic items or whatever takes their fancy.

    There are possibly many researchers and scholars, you just don't usually find them traipsing around dungeons and when they do, they hire adventurers to protect them. A scholar who WANTS to be self sufficient learns the combat and survival skills needed to adventure along with their academic skills. Such a character could be represented by a fighter or rogue depending on training with the sage or researcher background and with the prodigy and skilled feats combined with a reasonable intelligence.

    Does it make sense that there would be a group of scholars with special training in identifying weaknesses in monsters? In pointing these out to other adventurers so as to affect their attacks? Or some other mechanism to try to give a character who has spent their career studying and who suddenly finds themselves in a dangerous situation - something to do that might contribute to combat? To me, not really. The scholar spends their time learning things, not trying to point out weaknesses to other characters in combat. Weaknesses that once identified really don't need to be pointed out every time, thus more or less invalidating the concept as a class ability.

    Anyway, in my opinion, "scholarly" either describes a skilled character without combat skills or an adventuring character whose background and feat choices create a character that can effectively role play a scholarly background.

    Knowledge cleric is one of the best choices for a scholar adventurer. If someone wanted to homebrew a scholar adventurer class - starting with knowledge cleric and removing the spellcasting feature and replace it with something more knowledge and skills related might work. However, the problem remains that "scholar" is primarily based on skills so adventurer archetypes with a skills focus tend to be good choices for a "scholar" adventurer.
    Last edited by Keravath; 2021-09-16 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    D&D classes are heavily focused on combat, so a non-combat character wouldn't fit.

    You could do something like a Lazy Warlord build from 4e, where they give their allies large combat bonuses (extra attacks, reroll saves, temporary hp) through advice and encouragement.
    Some of the Bard abilities are like that.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I do think something could be worked out, though. A couple thoughts I have are to draw on things like the ranger's Favored Enemy, where the scholar gets a bonus against specific types of monsters thanks to knowing obscure lore that points out their weaknesses, and adds more creature types as they level up. Another one is the artificer's ability to use any magic item. A scholar might not be able to cast spells or create magic items, but they'd probably know a lot about them, being able to identify and make use of them easier. Bardic Inspiration could also be another mechanic that could we could use for inspiration, no pun intended. Another possibility is using INT for attack and damage rolls with a crossbow (or firearm).

    Really, I don't know that you need a lot of combat-specific abilities to make a class viable. You generally have damage bumps at 5th and 11th level for every class, which we can reason out a justification for. Add in a few other combat abilities, such as granting advantage to allies or imposing vulnerability on an enemy, and it should be sufficient. I'd expect a scholar to lean much more heavily on out-of-combat utility type stuff, not unlike a rogue, really.

    What do you think? What sorts of features would put on a scholar class? What core mechanic would you build them around? What subclasses would you have? Maybe I should take a stab at writing something up...
    I think there have been a few tries already, but some features that I think of:

    - Expertise/Reliable in INT skills
    - Bonus action Help, Search, Bardic Inspiration-style buff
    - Successful INT or Insight check against a creature grants you extra attack/damage/AC
    - Using a reaction when an ally makes an attack to add attack/damage
    - Being able to ID spells without using your reaction (If you use the Xan's rule)
    - Being able to foil magic with a successful Arcana check, like a mundane counterspell/dispel
    - Being able to 'read' items (identification, who used it last, where it was made, etc)
    - Being able to use any sort of scroll and a fair number of other wondrous items even if they normally need a caster to use/attune.
    - An assortment of languages including nonverbal means of communication
    - Something like Evasion or Danger Sense, but for Int/Wis/Cha attacks
    - Being able to use INT or WIS for ranged weapon attacks
    - Research/Information gathering downtime at faster rate, at reduced cost, at advantage, etc. Perhaps also apply to buying/selling magic items.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Thief. Rogue. Sage Background. Proficiencies in History and Arcana, and expertise in one of those (history), with expertise in arcana added at sixth level. Your other two expertise will be Stealth at level 1, Thieve's Tools at level 6.

    Make sure to bump Int a bit to keep it consistent, maybe up to 14.

    There you go. Enjoy.
    Thief rogue seems like a great starting point, we can pull from a couple other ones too.

    Level 3
    Replace Fast hands with something like Inquisitives insightful fighting, only tied to making an appropriate knowledge check about the creature (History: Orcs tend to over extend on their swings due to the heavy nature of their weapons, Nature: Owlbears can't look up, Arcana: Every Gibbering Mouther has one mouth that closes slower than the others, Religion: Devas are less likely to swing to the left since they are champions of the right, etc.)

    Instead of Second Story work gain the ability to add your Int to your thief tools checks and be unable to roll below 8 on investigation due to your analytical mind.

    Level 9
    Instead of Supreme sneak, you gain advantage on knowledge checks to recall information if you have access to your notes and some time to think. In addition you gain the benefits of an active Detect Magic spell when investigating magical objects or features

    Level 13
    Keep Use Magic Device just as it is

    Level 17
    Instead of Thief's reflexes, creatures affected by your Knowledgeable Fighting are Vulnerable to the first attack you make against them that combat.

    Still combat focused but more flavored towards an Int-y rogue without building out a full on new class.

    Alternatively could mix it into a knowledge monk and replace all the Wis based features with int. (or replace Dex with Int for a full non physical scholar type, may want to change fast movement and step of the wind up though)
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I think I'd like to see this most as a first round selection on a new class chassis built around high survivability, low DPR.

    This chassis should also support a pure grappler, and probably some sort of hapless damage sponge archetype, as well.

    I see the non-caster scholar as covering characters like Indiana Jones, where cleverness and relentlessness fuel success.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Unfortunately, I feel like the answer is that D&D just isn't built for anything not completely combat oriented, and an academic that isn't also a mage isn't combat oriented. A more boring answer might be "rogue with INT skills", which isn't satisfying, either.

    I do think something could be worked out, though. A couple thoughts I have are to draw on things like the ranger's Favored Enemy, where the scholar gets a bonus against specific types of monsters thanks to knowing obscure lore that points out their weaknesses, and adds more creature types as they level up. Another one is the artificer's ability to use any magic item. A scholar might not be able to cast spells or create magic items, but they'd probably know a lot about them, being able to identify and make use of them easier. Bardic Inspiration could also be another mechanic that could we could use for inspiration, no pun intended. Another possibility is using INT for attack and damage rolls with a crossbow (or firearm).

    Really, I don't know that you need a lot of combat-specific abilities to make a class viable. You generally have damage bumps at 5th and 11th level for every class, which we can reason out a justification for. Add in a few other combat abilities, such as granting advantage to allies or imposing vulnerability on an enemy, and it should be sufficient. I'd expect a scholar to lean much more heavily on out-of-combat utility type stuff, not unlike a rogue, really.

    What do you think? What sorts of features would put on a scholar class? What core mechanic would you build them around? What subclasses would you have? Maybe I should take a stab at writing something up...
    I think you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Any character or any class in 5e can be a scholar. Much like any can be a soldier, etc. Being a Scholar is tied more to background and character disposition than class and creating a scholar class necessarily implies that Fighters, Wizards, Artificers, etc. are not and cannot be scholars and that seems just a little odd to me.

    If you wanted a Scholar Class I think he'd have to function on being able to establish fiction about monsters etc. Which is generally viewed as a no-no by D&D players. I don't see the class ever working for D&D. Could work as a subclass though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reach Weapon View Post
    I see the non-caster scholar as covering characters like Indiana Jones, where cleverness and relentlessness fuel success.
    Scholar is fairly low on my list of things that come first to mind when thinking about Indiana Jones. Yes he was a scholar literally. In D&D terms he had that background and the DM built the story around his background. But he was more of a rogue archetype if i had to pick from current D&D classes - cunning, lucky, not necessarily a trained fighter. 5e rogues have a bit too much baggage though with sneak attack and thieves cant and the like.

    5e could probably use a generic adventurer class, which would fit great for Indiana Jones - modeled somewhat after the rogue but with extra attack instead of sneak attack. A focus on skills - with subclasses like scholar focusing on particular skills.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-09-16 at 10:30 PM.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Since D&D has a combat pillar, this Sage class is probably going to have significant subclasses that answer "How do we apply knowledge to overcome combats" in different ways. The subclasses might be big enough to be worth splitting the class into multiples.


    1) I know you and thus you will lose
    The Sage pulls on their vast knowledge and quick insight (yes Int and Wis) to learn about the enemies. The Sage has multiple features that represent this knowledge by making allies better at effecting this/these enemies and make this/these enemies less effective at effecting the party. Advantage and Disadvantage would be handed out like popcorn. Other features might include the Sage spending Action/Bonus Action/Reaction to grant an ally a Reaction to do XYZ.

    2) Ranger done right
    A Nature Lore Sage that specializes in a type of nature lore and has features for applying that knowledge. The packmaster has trained companions that will tear you asunder. The wanderer knows how to take advantage of terrain to its fullest as you suddenly find yourself being guided into potholes ravines and other hazards while their allies dance across the grass. The Hunter has studied the vulnerably of all prey, you are no exception. Not content with quantitative improvement, they get qualitative bonuses against each type of enemy.

    3) I know my minions/team, this is time for formation gamma.
    A marshal/warlord adapted to the current edition.

    Of course, since the Sage is about knowledge and understanding, they will have plenty of out of combat features to expand on the same or other knowledge bases. I expect something like Reliable Talent and Expertise combined with details about how high DC skill checks have level appropriate out of combat effects for high level.


    So the main class is focused on level appropriate skilled based out of combat utility. The subclasses will start at 1st and provide a combat application of specific knowledge. This means at minimum there would be subclass features at 1st, 5th, 11th, and 17th, however I expect 6 levels of subclass features might be reasonable. Oh and because warlock had a good idea, let the Sage have a smaller 2nd type of subclass that elaborates on a type of out of combat utility.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-09-16 at 10:40 PM.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Unfortunately, I feel like the answer is that D&D just isn't built for anything not completely combat oriented, and an academic that isn't also a mage isn't combat oriented. A more boring answer might be "rogue with INT skills", which isn't satisfying, either.
    An academic that isn't a mage can be combat oriented, but if you aren't satisfied by X with int skills, I don't know what you actually want. In general, anyone smart enough to be directly using int for combat is also going to be smart enough to figure out some magic unless you have some pressing reason why they wouldn't be able to do so.

    As for D&D not being built for anything not combat oriented, that's completely true. D&D is a tactical battle game with other elements tacked onto it. If combat isn't high on your (or your group's) priority list, a different game would probably suit you better. That's not to say that you can't use D&D for non-combat stuff, it just isn't built for it.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I'm thinking back to older editions where Int got you more proficiency slots that could be used effectively for a fighter. It's a shame there isn't some benefit like that in 5e, so Int is just a dump stat. I know one of my players (running a 20 Int Wizard) often said, 'Why the heck would I be hanging around with these guys?' referring to the rest of the group where every other character was 8 Int. I don't think he was all wrong.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    You all know there's only one proper answer:
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    What about a utility fighter? Healer, inspiring leader, ritual caster. He can fight well enough he supposes, but it's just a hobby.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    I'm thinking back to older editions where Int got you more proficiency slots that could be used effectively for a fighter. It's a shame there isn't some benefit like that in 5e, so Int is just a dump stat. I know one of my players (running a 20 Int Wizard) often said, 'Why the heck would I be hanging around with these guys?' referring to the rest of the group where every other character was 8 Int. I don't think he was all wrong.
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    What about a utility fighter? Healer, inspiring leader, ritual caster. He can fight well enough he supposes, but it's just a hobby.
    You could patchwork together Fighter and Rogue into something, plus a bit of bard and ranger even, but at the end of the day 'Sage' is a Background and thus secondary to Class which I think is what Greywander is getting at.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Late 3.5 had a class like this, the Factotum - while it got some divine and arcane spells at later levels (by being smart and picking stuff up along the way), essentially it was a non-casting explorer class, based on int.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I don't think this is anywhere near as difficult as people claim. Of course any D&D class needs combat abilities, but a "scholar" class can have features based on studying enemies and supporting their allies well enough. Plus, you know, just using a weapon, even if it won't be as effective as a fighter. The game just seems stuck in thinking that rogues need to be the be-all, end-all of characters who aren't warriors but also don't cast magic.
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    There's a class in 3.5 called the Archivist which is about 50% of the way there. They get a feature called "Dark Knowledge", which lets them provide buffs to the party and debuffs to the enemy a few times per day, based on their Knowledge check result. (They also get casting from every Divine list (with shenanigans), which is the meat of the class)

    Using that as inspiration, you could increase the number of times they could do it (perhaps make some at will, some per encounter, etc.) and the range of things that they can do. To make it non-caster, you could make its direct combat capabilities martial.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Hmm, if I was building one?

    Alright the Scholar. Skill monkey, like the Rogue. Maybe use that as a basis. But I'd have their main combat function being more around support abilities than Sneak Attack.

    Perhaps various abilities about pointing out weak points in the enemy, providing others damage bonuses. Or using persuasion and deception like features to control them. Honestly, I'd probably raid Star Wars Saga Edition for their abilities that were given to the Scoundrel and Noble classes and the Officer, Corporate Agent, Medic, Saboteur, Improviser, and Charlatan prestige classes.

    Subclasses would be something like:

    Commander: Focuses more on providing actions and boosts to allies in combat
    Medic: Non-magical healing
    Orator: Really hone in on providing area wide debuffs and confusing the enemy
    Conservationist: More like a scout/wild life focused subclass with a lot of monster knowledge

    Followed by your more generic:
    Warrior-Poet: Which acts as just giving them a bit more of a martial feel.
    Sage: Which gives them 1/3 casting.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Unfortunately, I feel like the answer is that D&D just isn't built for anything not completely combat oriented, and an academic that isn't also a mage isn't combat oriented. A more boring answer might be "rogue with INT skills", which isn't satisfying, either.

    I do think something could be worked out, though. A couple thoughts I have are to draw on things like the ranger's Favored Enemy, where the scholar gets a bonus against specific types of monsters thanks to knowing obscure lore that points out their weaknesses, and adds more creature types as they level up. Another one is the artificer's ability to use any magic item. A scholar might not be able to cast spells or create magic items, but they'd probably know a lot about them, being able to identify and make use of them easier. Bardic Inspiration could also be another mechanic that could we could use for inspiration, no pun intended. Another possibility is using INT for attack and damage rolls with a crossbow (or firearm).

    Really, I don't know that you need a lot of combat-specific abilities to make a class viable. You generally have damage bumps at 5th and 11th level for every class, which we can reason out a justification for. Add in a few other combat abilities, such as granting advantage to allies or imposing vulnerability on an enemy, and it should be sufficient. I'd expect a scholar to lean much more heavily on out-of-combat utility type stuff, not unlike a rogue, really.

    What do you think? What sorts of features would put on a scholar class? What core mechanic would you build them around? What subclasses would you have? Maybe I should take a stab at writing something up...
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    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-09-17 at 10:29 AM.
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    A homebrew Scholar class could easily be made using the Expert sidekick class from Tasha's as a starting point.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Honestly, you could do it with Rogue. Make a new subclass that has a mechanic like the Ambush feats of old - giving up SA damage for a variety of debuffs on the opponent, but add some abilities that buff you/your allies. Give a free Int skill or two, maybe allow attacks with Intelligence instead of Dexterity (to keep with the theme of attack-replacing abilities having some limit on them).

    Maybe an ability called Hampering Strike or something that made you give up 2d6 SA until the start of your next turn (so no RXN SA), but every creature has advantage on attacks against the selected oppponent.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I despise any rule whose outcome is buffing wizards.
    That's probably the single reason why we haven't made a house rule to give some benefit to getting at least an average int. Would it be enough to actually encourage players to do it, or would it just buff Wizards? At best we figured such a rule might provide ATs and EKs a bit more incentive to invest.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Late 3.5 had a class like this, the Factotum - while it got some divine and arcane spells at later levels (by being smart and picking stuff up along the way), essentially it was a non-casting explorer class, based on int.
    That's what I was thinking of too when I read the title. Now I want to see if I can port Factotum to 5E... shouldn't be too hard, outside of the fact I haven't looked at the class in probably 15 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    That's probably the single reason why we haven't made a house rule to give some benefit to getting at least an average int. Would it be enough to actually encourage players to do it, or would it just buff Wizards? At best we figured such a rule might provide ATs and EKs a bit more incentive to invest.
    I'm seriously thinking of dropping class skills and granting 1 skill associated with the attribute per attribute mod point. Of course, this would require an expansion of the skills set. I'm currently looking at the following:

    Acrobatics Dexterity As per 5E
    Animal Handling Wisdom As per 5E
    Arcane Lore Intelligence As per 5E
    Axes Strength Weapon Group
    Bargaining Charisma Obtaining a better deal
    Black Powder Dexterity Weapon Group
    Bludgeons Strength Weapon Group
    Bows Dexterity Weapon Group
    Brawling Strength Weapon Group
    Calligraphy Dexterity (Tool) pens
    Cartography Intelligence (Tool) maps, sextant
    Climbing Strength As per 5E Athletics
    Courage Wisdom Bolsters saves vs fear
    Crafting Dexterity (Tool) basic crafting
    Cryptography Intelligence Creating and solving cyphers
    Cultural Lore Intelligence Knowing about cultures
    Deception Charisma As per 5E
    Disguise Charisma (Tool) disguise kit
    Driving Strength (Tool) Cart, wagon
    Dueling Dexterity Weapon Group
    Empathy Wisdom Replaces Insight
    Engineering Intelligence Practical construction
    Etiquette Charisma Social niceties
    Evaluation Intelligence Appraisal
    Faith Wisdom Bolsters saves vs religious adversity
    Forgery Dexterity (Tool) Forgery kit
    Gambling Dexterity Making money through games of chance
    Hearing Wisdom Noticing sounds
    Heavy Blades Strength Weapon Group
    Heraldry Intelligence Knowing about royalty
    Historical Lore Intelligence Knowing the history of places
    Initiative Dexterity Acting quickly in tense situations
    Intimidation Strength As per 5E
    Investigation Charisma As per 5E
    Jumping Strength As per 5E Athletics
    Lances Strength Weapon Group
    Leadership Charisma Guiding and directing others
    Light Blades Dexterity Weapon Group
    Medicine Wisdom As per 5E
    Might Strength Feats of strength
    Military Lore Intelligence Knowing about military tactics and personnel
    Natural Lore Intelligence Knowing about the natural world
    Navigation Wisdom (Tool) maps, sextant
    Performance Charisma As per 5E
    Persuasion Charisma As per 5E
    Polearms Strength Weapon Group
    Propelling Constitution (Tool) Self-powered propulsion: bicycle or rowboat
    Religious Lore Intelligence Knowing the various religions, their offshoots and their gods
    Research Intelligence Finding answers by using objects/books
    Riding Dexterity Basic ability to ride an animal
    Running Constitution Moving quickly
    Sabotage Dexterity (Tool) Sappers equipment
    Sailing Dexterity Knowing how to use the wind to propel a watercraft
    Searching Wisdom Finding hidden or obscured objects
    Seduction Charisma Making winning moves in the game of love
    Seeing Wisdom Noticing sights
    Self-Discipline Wisdom Focusing your mental energy or controlling your motives
    Sleight of Hand Dexterity As per 5E
    Smelling Wisdom Noticing smells
    Smithing Strength (Tool) Blacksmithing, Armor crafting, Weapon smithing
    Spears Strength Weapon Group
    Stamina Constitution Enduring fatigue / resisting exhaustion
    Staves Strength Weapon Group
    Stealth Dexterity As per 5E
    Survival Wisdom As per 5E
    Swimming Constitution As per 5E Athletics
    Tolerance Constitution Drinking, Drugs, Poison
    Tracking Wisdom How to follow a critter

    This would decouple skills from Intelligence specifically that boosts Artificers and Wizards, while granting skills, weapons and tools to the classes who would get the most out of them.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

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    Lord Raziere's Avatar

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I don't think this is anywhere near as difficult as people claim. Of course any D&D class needs combat abilities, but a "scholar" class can have features based on studying enemies and supporting their allies well enough. Plus, you know, just using a weapon, even if it won't be as effective as a fighter. The game just seems stuck in thinking that rogues need to be the be-all, end-all of characters who aren't warriors but also don't cast magic.
    Exactly I've seen a bunch of Scholar class homebrew pull it off. just because you read a lot of books and know stuff doesn't you can't also know how to stab that monster- and if you read the right books, you know exactly where to stab so that it goes down quicker. We really need to expand non-magic classes beyond rogue.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-09-17 at 08:29 PM.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere". Hate is a chain, free yourself.



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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    I would find an scholarly adventurer as inspiration and build from there. Indiana Jones is a typical example getting back to the rogue with a sage background.

    Other scholarly backgrounds include anthropologist, archeologist, or cloistered scholar. Or make a custom back ground to cover it thematically.

    If a person wants a less roguish scholar then I might go with a fighter. Fighters are practically a blank canvas for making a standard everyday adventurer with whatever them a person might want for a flavor build. Go battle master and include tactical assessment, ambush, commanding presence, and maneuvering attack.. Add other maneuvers that do not require saves and a lower STR or DEX will not be negatively impacting in using them. For example, precision attack would be suitable to the intelligent theme.

    Take the skill expertise, skilled, dungeon delver, keen mind, linguist, or ritual caster for thematic feats.

    Skills like history, arcana, religion, nature, and medicine are thematic.

    A fighter who does not optimize for combat is built on a strong enough chassis to support playing with options like that. It also prevent such a fighter from stepping on toes because the knowledge or skill versatility added means a bit lower combat ability for a trade off in the concept.

    If a person wants to make INT more prominent in the concept then that means making another subclass or class. A class would be more work and be looking at multiple subclasses. Expertise, bonus skill proficiencies, tool expertise, and flash of genius are similarly applicable abilities that might be used. The Next playtest bardic knowledge would work as well. It was like reliable talent but only worked for lore checks.

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    Default Re: What would a scholarly, non-caster class look like?

    Scholar, WIP.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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