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    Default Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    It’s finally coming! Not Silksong, but I’m super excited.

    deltarune.com
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    wow that's great news!

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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Currently playing it now, got through most of the story, now going through I think the optional area of chapter 2....
    Spoiler: Spoilers for those who haven't played yet
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    I've hit this incredibly hard rising teacup course you seem to need lightning-fast reflexes to get past in the mansion basement. I keep dying to it even though I want to get past it to see what Spamton's thing is all about. don't tell me what I'm going to find, just tell me what I'm supposed to do to get past it once I shut off the force field.

    EDIT: Nevermind I got past it the EXACT run after I posted this, just beware, this optional teacup course is stupidly hard and not for people with bad reflexes, you need to focus on it. and even then you might only get out with 5 hp.

    Edit 2: was fighting the optional boss last night and quit because my arm was getting tired from playing, and I was getting frustrated at this boss's hardness. it is the only reason I haven't beaten this chapter in one sitting.

    Edit 3: I've beaten chapter 2 but saved on a different file to make sure I can go back to beat the optional boss. the ending is......0_0.
    Spoiler: spoilers for those who haven't beaten it yet
    Show
    yeah the Chapter 1 ending with someone tearing the heart out? that wasn't a just a jump scare. that happened. and it was done again, turns out Heartless Kris is the one causing the dark worlds to spring up out of nowhere with a knife. and they just did it to their own house while Toriel and Susie were inside after slashing the tires. and they didn't put the Heart back in this time....they kept it out to be consumed by the darkness.

    the Queen being Lancer's Mom makes a lot of sense actually. Guess the queen card of that deck got lost in the library one day.

    I'm liking the Susie/Noelle romance here though. its actually pretty cute and well done.

    also Ralsei outright stating how the world is going to end if your open too much dark fountains despite the all the cool wonder worlds that result was a bit of a reveal. the Roaring sounds a bit creepier than most darkness based apocalypses for some reason.

    though there is some weirdness: Ralsei says that Darkners can't last long outside their own dark worlds....yet he and his fountain are somehow an exception due to being "pure darkness"? what? and if too many dark fountains are opened, why is he not closing his own? they seem to literally revert back to being inanimate objects and are completely aware of it to some extent. he could just be dealing straight and making a Darkner refuge where they can all live without screwing up the Lightner's world.....or there could be something else going on. after all. Ralsei's own Dark World would have to been opened somehow to and if not by Heartless Kris.....who else? and why now? maybe Ralsei is being straight with us, but he is only a pawn in someone else's plan. and Determination returns as a force in this world, but not playing the same role as it did in Undertale with any Lightner being able to use it and it being the key to expand the dark fountains somehow.

    also Heartless Kris is probably the person who cut the internet last night then caused the dark world to open in the library computer room.

    Sans continues to have offhand meta-knowledge. while also having a flirty relationship with Toriel while he and Asgore.....have maybe passive-aggressive/snarky back and forth about plants? it seems like Sans is aware of whats going with this relationship triangle but Asgore isn't. I'm watching you "janitor". I doubt you'll have anything to do with the main plot, but you still know something of what is going on.

    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-09-18 at 12:32 PM.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    When I first fired it up, I got hit with an error code and crashed in the first room of the Dark World... and considering this series, I didn't know if that was intended or not.

    I knew I was going to like this one mechanically when the tutorial told us about the many quality of life changes since Chapter 1... and the discovery that Ch 2 brought in a mechanic from one of my all time favorite RPGs, Suikoden. And damn, it felt good to get as many answers about what was going on as we did. Things we'd been speculating on for years being cleared up was great, especially when our theories turned out to be right. Honestly, I was not going to be happy if we kept being strung along for however long... Especially since the chapter select screen has seven slots.

    Sadly, like my Chapter 1 playthrough, I missed several things, including not being able to reach the secret boss, and I'm not sure about replaying for that... I feel like I should treat Deltarune like I did Undertale, and my first run going in blind is my canon playthrough. Looking at vids of the bonus boss, he's no Jevil, but it looks like there's already an established theme for hidden bosses: People who went world-shakingly insane due to learning things Darkners Were Not Meant to Know about the way their world really works.

    Also, when we got our first hints to the identity of the Knight, I immediately jumped to a conclusion I thought was crazy, but then turned out to be even more right than I expected. I was more disturbed than gratified at being correct, though...
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Oof hard to not click that spoiler tag.

    And heck ya Suikoden.

    My intent is to play through like you would a normal RPG. Then do a full murder hobo run of chapters 1 and 2, then go full pacifist.

    Currently I’m… a few hours in. Don’t wanna post details.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoVid View Post
    When I first fired it up, I got hit with an error code and crashed in the first room of the Dark World... and considering this series, I didn't know if that was intended or not.

    I knew I was going to like this one mechanically when the tutorial told us about the many quality of life changes since Chapter 1... and the discovery that Ch 2 brought in a mechanic from one of my all time favorite RPGs, Suikoden. And damn, it felt good to get as many answers about what was going on as we did. Things we'd been speculating on for years being cleared up was great, especially when our theories turned out to be right. Honestly, I was not going to be happy if we kept being strung along for however long... Especially since the chapter select screen has seven slots.

    Sadly, like my Chapter 1 playthrough, I missed several things, including not being able to reach the secret boss, and I'm not sure about replaying for that... I feel like I should treat Deltarune like I did Undertale, and my first run going in blind is my canon playthrough. Looking at vids of the bonus boss, he's no Jevil, but it looks like there's already an established theme for hidden bosses: People who went world-shakingly insane due to learning things Darkners Were Not Meant to Know about the way their world really works.

    Also, when we got our first hints to the identity of the Knight, I immediately jumped to a conclusion I thought was crazy, but then turned out to be even more right than I expected. I was more disturbed than gratified at being correct, though...
    I didn't get the crash or the error code. its not intended.

    Spoiler: spoilers for those who haven't beaten the chapter
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    I've spoken with Seam after beating Spamton NEO. apparently as long as you beat an optional boss in the past you can somehow get a dark crystal in the present/show up somehow. I think its implying that as long as you beat the optional bosses on any save file, later chapters will make sure you get the dark crystal in some manner.

    also I like how Susie keeps avoiding mentioning her parents and looks surprised at Toriel and her home, which implies to me that Susie doesn't have the best home life. she gives off abused-child-turned teenager vibes and its just more obvious now that she is actually getting friendship and love from others.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-09-18 at 11:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    I just saw some clips of what sort of things get altered in a genocide route, and damn. Some of it is just plain disturbing enough that I wouldn't have believed it was in the game if I hadn't seen the footage myself.

    If you want an example
    Spoiler
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    Here's what happens if you force Noelle to gain a bunch of levels. https://youtu.be/lz_1uVYDhBA?t=385


    For a game that says straight out "Your choices don't matter," there's some major things that can go differently over the course of Chapter 2. I'm honestly a little worried to look into what a full geno run is like.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    I'm going to speculate about a few things regarding Deltarune here. People are saying a lot of things about whether or not this or that is going to happen and I thought to weigh in now that there is a second chapter out, and a clearer pattern has been established. Be warned, I'm taking EVERYTHING into account into speculation/analysis like this, so its heavy spoilers for a lot of stuff.

    Spoiler: Deltarune chp2 speculation
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    The Heart: Hero or Villain?
    First must address, are we the players who control the Heart-not Kris, this is an incredibly important distinction-the Hero or the Villain of this story? This is a more complicated question to answer than it seems. The default assumption is that we're the Hero but the only reason we have to think that is because Ralsei explains that we need to save the world by closing the Dark Fountains. Except....we only have his word for that. Neither the Chaos King or the Queen seem to know or care about what the Fountains actually do, only caring what it does for them. Why does this one little fluffy goat boy know this when these two rulers didn't? We don't know where he came from or why he is an exception to the very rules he states. And we're railroaded into doing his agenda, no matter how merciless or merciful we are. For all we know, he is lying to accomplish some other objective.

    At the same time, Villain doesn't really work unless we're playing genocide- which is much harder to do than in Undertale. To get the chapter 2 genocide you really need to work to derail things. Unless you do things very specifically and violently, your saving Darkners and putting them in Castletown.

    Now there is the thing about the Heart possessing Kris and controlling their actions. Except Kris can seemingly pull out the Heart at any time and take back control without us being able to do anything about it. Then for some reason, Kris puts us back in once they are done doing whatever it is they want to do, even if all the things they do are incredibly creepy and with a zombie like gait. So is Kris really being controlled, or the Heart just forced into them and they keep it around for some reason when they need to do something without it and they allow us to control their actions to a degree? Because there are things that we don't control about Kris even if the Heart is inside them. Things we don't tell them to say, that turn to look at the camera after a cut scene is over, little things like that.

    Like we didn't choose to possess Kris, someone else did that. We wanted to be put in some custom body of our own making. If we're doing something villainous its because we're a pawn of someone who has rigged the game in their favor- and Ralsei might be a pawn as well. Y'know, aside from the genocide route cruelty we can do for its own sake. But at the same time, the genocide run of Chapter 2 reveals that Ralsei may be aware that the Heart is controlling Kris, as well as that the Heart can control others to kill for you instead of Kris.

    Kris: Troubled Teen or Villain?
    Now we look at Kris. Are they simply a troubled teen who got unfairly possessed, or a villain actually orchestrating all this while we are not controlling them? I can see and make arguments for both and also the problems with those arguments. I will start with the troubled teen interpretation.

    If Kris is nothing but a troubled teen who got unfairly possessed, then all they've done is eaten some cake during the night, slashed some tires and cause one Dark World to form because they agree with Susie about staying in one. Understandable, if unwise. The problem with saying Kris is a troubled teen or whatever... is that it makes no sense. They were raised in a good environment, with a good family and while there was a divorce its not as if Toriel or Asgore became any less loving or caring towards Kris. They still seem to be living a relatively good life. Even if Kris feels something about that, is it really enough to want to change the world and risk the apocalypse? Kris apparently was a troublemaker in their youth and did something at some point but its never elaborated on. Yet they are talked about as if they're this creepy silent child whose sudden interest in going around talking to people is out of character for them. Now you could say its just introversion, but even introverted people have some measure of talking to people. The way some people talk about Kris makes them seem like some husk or zombie that is just there for some reason. And I don't think normal teens no matter how troubled keep a birdcage around to tear out the soul inside their body and throw into whenever they need to. If Kris is nothing a but a troubled teen caught up in all this, we need a compelling reason for why they are this way. Also the way they walk and are presented is deliberately creepy and unsettling with no actual dialogue from them and the kind of plan to trap your own friend and family in a Dark World seems...a bit out there for an ordinary teen to do.

    On the Villain interpretation side of things, it doesn't get any less murky. Chapter 2 ending implies that Kris is at least capable of causing the first two Dark Worlds at school and the library. In this interpretation, they ARE the Roaring Knight and for some reason are working to open the Dark Fountains for some purpose. Why the Roaring Knight wants the world to end- if that is indeed something that will actually happen- is a mystery. The problem with this is well...how does Kris know to do all this? In the chapter 2 ending it could plausibly be explained by them just doing it after hearing Ralsei or the Queens explanation of how Determination works to open this stuff up. If they were doing this since the beginning, they would somehow need to know beforehand to open up the other Dark Worlds before the third one. So where would they learn how to do it? Well for that we must ask: how did Ralsei learn all this in the first place? We know its very likely that Ralsei is a Darkner formed from Kris's own desires about Asriel and that Kris has studied the occult according to Catti. Ralsei might just be a pawn in Kris's plans, created to be this naive exposition figure to lie about Kris's real goals for why they close off other Dark Fountains and gather them all at Castle Town. However another problem with this possibility is if Kris is the Roaring Knight, how does the Chaos King and the Queen not recognize Kris when they come back a second time to close the fountain seemingly having switched sides? Now Kris could disguise themselves, Queen wasn't able to read Noelle's face and thus didn't recognize her at all because computer but that doesn't explain Chaos King not recognizing them.

    The World: Saved or Doomed?
    Another question to consider is whether the world of Deltarune is doomed or not. We only have two people knowledgeable and sane enough to tell us: Ralsei and Seam. Ralsei seems to think the world's destruction can be averted as long as you keep closing Dark Fountains. Seam seems to think that the end of the world is inevitable and has resigned himself to it. Now it could just be Seam being a pessimist. Would not be out of character for Toby Fox to use that old chestnut. But neither would I put it past Ralsei to be a liar or pawn who is somehow CAUSING the end of the world by empowering a single fountain.

    There is however some evidence against the world being doomed: namely its only when you give up you get a dark start/title menu because you gave up after a death leading to a timeline where the world ended. If the world was doomed no matter what, why bother with any other background for the start screen? You may be on rails, but it seems as long as you don't give up those rails carry you to a timeline where the world does not end. Maybe.

    But if the world was doomed anyways, it would explain a lot about Deltarune: your choices don't matter not because of any railroading, but because its all going to be destroyed at the end of the game, no matter how many you befriend or many levels you gain, the end of the world can't be averted and its all about the journey to get there. It would explain why there is only “one ending” despite the things you can do to change things to a degree. Either that or Toby Fox is operating on a very strange definition of “one ending”.

    The other other possibility is that this is all leading to the world being saved no matter what we do, in which case the genocide run thing may be “sure you saved the world, but at what cost?”

    How Far Off the Rails Can We Go?
    Continuing from the last question, I will now ask: How far off the rails can we truly go before we get rerailed? Because if there is only one ending, but stuff like the Chapter 2 genocide route has things like Berdley dying/going unconscious and Noelle being turned into a icy magical weapon of doom that can one shot bosses, that implies there is an ending so strong that it can force it all back to one conclusion. Or that Berdley wasn't important to the plot at all and not required for how anything turns out, so we can do what we want to him. Whether Berdley lives or dies isn't important for the ending, so he doesn't matter in terms of plot. But this also means the mental state of Noelle isn't truly important for the end either- just that she lives. Which is interesting.

    Like thats the only way I can find to square this circle of the game insisting you have no choice but can alter this or that. The changes you CAN make aren't actually vital to whatever will happen at the very end. So if the state of Berdley doesn't matter, it means that whatever the ending involves, killing Berdley doesn't change it. But somehow Queen knowing what Ralsei told her does because that happens no matter what. Spamton can either die on either route or just languish as a salesman among garbage if you decide to ignore him, so his story never mattered to the main plot. Similarly you can either ignore Jevil or fight him so whatever you do with him doesn't matter which is why you have options.

    Another optional thing? How many darkners you recruit. So they don't really matter to the main plot. In short, the only things that mattered to Chapter 2 were: the Queen is informed of her plan not working and thus defecting and Noelle getting out of the dark world alive along with the main three. Just like the only things that mattered in Chapter 1 was Chaos King being defeated and the main three being victorious, it didn't HOW they were victorious so long as the condition was fulfilled.

    So I think we can assume that for the next four chapters, the vital conditions will consist some form of defeating the final boss/leader of a Dark World and Kris, Ralsei and Susie getting out alive, with Noelle probably also living in each. Chapter 7 is when all bets are off. So in all probability there will be ways to go off script and no-mercy run it enough, but they will always result in the certain few conditions that actually matter for the next chapter to work. Chapter 7 is when anything can happen and be done because it will all lead to the same ending regardless.

    So its less that your completely powerless, and more that anything can happen as long as certain required conditions are fulfilled at the end- you just don't know what those conditions are until you've played it. It also implies the five other kids are not important to the ending and can be killed in the five other chapters, if the pattern is followed, but the way the next Dark World was made implies this may not be how it unfolds, as unless one of the five remaining kids comes to check out why Kris's house is dark or whatever, the only people in this new Dark World are: Kris, Susie and Toriel.

    Hero/Villain Pair Possibilities:
    Heart Good, Kris Good:
    In this possibility, both Kris and the Heart are good, just working at cross purposes because Kris understandably doesn't like being controlled and is a teenager with their own desires and feelings

    Heart Good, Kris Bad:
    In this possibility, Kris is the villain trying to do something bad and the Heart is placed in them by Gaster to stop them. It would Kris is probably the Roaring Knight somehow manipulating all these events to some end desirable to them.

    Heart Bad, Kris Good:
    If we're the villain of the story and Kris is good or neutral, then we're probably doing the bidding of Ralsei who is working towards some goal that involves the Dark Fountains but not the end of the world, or some entity that has made Ralsei THINK that the world is going to end, but is being manipulated into doing something else.

    Heart Bad, Kris Bad:
    In this, Ralsei and Kris both have some agenda beyond saving the world, but are working at cross purposes, this could be why there is only one end and Seam says the world is doomed: no matter who you side with it brings the Roaring anyways.

    The Second Possessor:
    Another possibility of course, is that Kris is controlled not only by us, but by a different entity when they tear out the Heart and there is actually three beings vying for control of the same body. Time will tell if this is true.

    Ralsei: The Enigma?
    A scene in the chapter 2 Genocide route implies that Ralsei knows when we imagine Susie doing something and thinks that kind of scene is supposed to happen and when. This adds further credence to the fact that Ralsei knows more than they are letting on, as it implies some level of future knowledge. Meaning him being ignorant or a pawn is less plausible as it implies that Ralsei knows enough about events to expect a certain cut scene to happen.

    There is also the fact that Ralsei just....appeared in the Cyber World, showing up on his own. Without any help from Kris or Susie. How did he get there? Not exactly right next to his own Dark World like the first one. Also HOW did he know to get here? Again, the future knowledge seems to be happening with this one.

    His claim of being a prince of darkness is as always, suspect. There is nothing backing this up and is only heightened by the fact that each Dark World's “monarchy” system is kind of arbitrary and fake? Queen and Chaos King just seem to take over because they're powerful not because they're actually meant to rule anything.

    Also if we keep closing the Dark Fountains, we can't actually know if what Ralsei says about the Roaring is true or not, can we? Because each time its only two fountains opened for the first two chapters. For there to be danger of it actually happening, it has to be multiple fountains opening at once. So either we keep only closing one fountain at a time thus not being able to prove Ralsei's warnings...or the ante is going to get upped in later chapters. And things will get interesting if a lot of fountains are opened and the Roaring just doesn't happen now won't it? Because the question becomes: what actually happens then?

    As well as “what happens when we succeed in Ralsei's plan?”
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    I’m going with the Kris bad/heart neutral scenario. I think Kris is a psychopath or something, and has negative side effects of possession.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Spoiler: Ralsei Discussion
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    Some other interesting things about Ralsei: He did the "Don't you wonder what Susie is up to?" thing in Chapter 1, as well. A theory I've seen floating around is that Ralsei somehow knows about us, and is using these opportunities to get us away from Kris, allowing Ralsei to talk to Kris without our influence. When we return to Kris both times, Ralsei appears to have been having a conversation.

    Another interesting, though less substantiative, thing is that the "Prince from the Dark" in the prophecy from Chapter 1 has some kind of fire magic around them, while Ralsei doesn't appear to have anything like that.

    There is definitely something going on with Ralsei, but I don't think he's going to be outright evil.

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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Spoiler: Ralsei discussion
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    I dunno man.

    Ralsei's plan of sparing all the monsters so that he have them all at his fountain is a bit similar to Flowey's plan of sparing all the monsters so he can absorb them, he makes rooms for Susie and Kris despite fully knowing they already have homes in the Light World, and speaking with Kris while we're not around is something suspect in of itself given that Kris is proven to be able and willing to open a Dark World and we're the one controlling Kris to close the Dark Worlds. he specifically calls out the silver save point for no reason to make sure we save after the Chapter 2 fountain so we can't go back to the Cyber World, and he claims to have no friends before but he somehow knows all this stuff about the Roaring and whatnot? and his intro sequence in chp 1 is pretty much a nice version of the Flowey tutorial.

    he might be good.....or he might be just be a more competent villain because he can fake niceness better.

    but again, more likely he might be a pawn. he might not know why he is doing all this and someone else told him all this and him being this sweet naive goatboy, is following it believing he is doing something good. just because Ralsei believes things to be true doesn't mean they are true. the best lie is something you actually believe, so if someone made Ralsei actually believe in all this, thats the best way to manipulate anyone he talks to because he believes it and will act like it is true, because he doesn't know better. its not as if Queen knows any better about this after all, so what source does Ralsei have that makes him so sure that this is what will happen and what he is doing is the best course of events? its not as if he would have first-hand knowledge of the Roaring, because the world is still working, so someone would have to have TOLD him all this, so who taught Ralsei all this and why? thats the questions that I feel are important.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Spoiler: Knight identity
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    I'm replaying chapter 1 (full pacifist this time, in order for full pacifist chapter 2), and I realized...

    During the fight with King, he talks a good bit about "my Knight." The fact that Kris is right in front of him makes me think those theories on Reddit about Kris being the Knight are wrong.

    Also, totally unrelated, bit of a bummer you can't keep the hot cocoa or the not-Sans phone number, going from ch 1 to 2.
    Last edited by danzibr; 2021-10-14 at 12:14 PM.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Spoiler: Knight identity
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    Indeed you are correct, Queen and Chaos King not recognizing Kris is a big wrench in that theory, as I've said before.

    At the same time, there are other things to consider: namely what "Determination" is in Deltarune. We don't know if its the same thing as it is in Undertale. Because if it is, using Determination would make the monsters melt. Which would severely limit the amount of people who can repeatedly make Dark Worlds. There would have to be another human in town somehow unknown to everyone living there making things happen if its not Kris when they take out the heart.

    But Deltarune is a different universe with seemingly rules so.....if its not Kris then it has to be one of the monster lightners doing all this. We can only then narrow down our suspects through logical elimination of means, motive and opportunity.
    -it can't be Toriel, she arrives at school the same time as Kris, so she wouldn't have the opportunity.
    -Alphys does seem have to a motive: make Dark Worlds and get cool videogame stuff, but then why not go to her own room of videogame stuff and go dark world that? makes no sense. Can't be Alphys
    -Its not Susie, Berdley or Noelle as they are all surprised by the Dark Worlds and have genuine reactions to their existence.
    -it can't be Mettaton, they don't go out of their home ever in this world, and would've been in the computer Dark World if they knew.
    -Undyne? Hm. we have two opportunities to inform Undyne about the Dark World and each time she doesn't believe us. she is a cop so she can plausibly move more freely about than most. despite Toriel calling her, she doesn't show up at the end of Chapter 2. She is an incredibly determined person and doesn't like it that nothing happens in this town. is Undyne the Roaring Knight? she has the means, she has the motive, and more opportunity than most, unless we think she is too busy with her police job?
    -Papyrus doesn't seem to come out of his home either
    -Goth Catti seems interested in the occult but she works a diner when would she have the time?
    -the snowguy and monster kid seem scared and curious about the southern door, so it can't be either of them why be curious about that when you got the power to make Dark Worlds?
    -Jockington? no is always around Goth Catti, so there would be two Knights in that case, makes no sense
    -Asgore......Asgore......lets see.....his flower shop is failing, and he is divorced....so both motive and opportunity. its means that I'm not sure about, its a small town anyone can reach the school or library during the night, kris sure can by just walking around, so it comes down to whether he knows enough about the Dark World to do it, which we can't say for sure, but....his back flower room with the seven flowers arrayed? thats begging to be a Dark World, so same problem as Alphys: why not go into that back room and make a Dark World there?
    -the next suspect.....is Sans. He certainly knows more than he is saying, has knowledge of Dark Worlds and the doors and such, but there is a problem with that, and a wholly unique one: he might be a Darkner, which makes him unable to open a fountain because only Lightners can do that. (the reasoning why Sans might be a Darkner are: he has blood but also casts magic, which Undertale monsters don't have they just fall to dust....but Deltarune Darkners do know what blood is since Lancer threatens the Fun Gang with a blood-based threat, and Sans uses a magic door to his room that is similar to the ones we use to traverse other dark worlds.) meaning Sans is potentially eliminated because he is TOO involved in a way.
    -The Mayor? maybe. we haven't seen her yet. she is supposedly very effective and busy but.....
    -It can't be Pizzapants, he'd want to Dark World Pezza's to screw over his coworkers, like immediately.
    -the rest of the townsfolk are too minor to really suspect them.

    So current Roaring Knight suspects are: Asgore, Undyne, Mayor if we're discounting Kris.

    now another theory might be that its simply that Goner we made at the beginning of the game, but thats a bit of a copout since that Goner doesn't really have anyone controlling it, and some Goner just phasing in and out of reality to do all this feels cheap, because there is no other way to really guess that.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    I watched Jacksepticeye's let's play of it, and the story is nicely set up, but the original genius of Undertale is lacking a bit to be honest. It is still a fun game, and a great RPG parody, but it's not THAT levels of geniality.

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    The game's overreliance on Queen as a comedic relief is very noticable. Plus she/it is very one dimensional. Undertale had King Asgore and Flowey as sympathetic villains. Deltarune Ch. 1 had Lancer which was no villain at all, but at least his father had a unique stance on Lightners (if you cease to play, we cease to exist). But Queen is just....weird, man. Berdley is a much more sympathetic and well written character, who would have made a great "dark lord" or however the masters of the Dark Fountains are called. I could have seen a twist in which he enjoys his position as "knight in glow-in-the-dark armor" and controls Queen to be a front for his power fantasies. Similar to King of Spades, he would want Kris to remain in the game because this allows him to stay in his RPG persona.


    Deltarune has had its share of lolrandom events and happenings, but they should at least be framed by a somewhat consistent narrative and most importantly characters.

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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I watched Jacksepticeye's let's play of it, and the story is nicely set up, but the original genius of Undertale is lacking a bit to be honest. It is still a fun game, and a great RPG parody, but it's not THAT levels of geniality.

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    The game's overreliance on Queen as a comedic relief is very noticable. Plus she/it is very one dimensional. Undertale had King Asgore and Flowey as sympathetic villains. Deltarune Ch. 1 had Lancer which was no villain at all, but at least his father had a unique stance on Lightners (if you cease to play, we cease to exist). But Queen is just....weird, man. Berdley is a much more sympathetic and well written character, who would have made a great "dark lord" or however the masters of the Dark Fountains are called. I could have seen a twist in which he enjoys his position as "knight in glow-in-the-dark armor" and controls Queen to be a front for his power fantasies. Similar to King of Spades, he would want Kris to remain in the game because this allows him to stay in his RPG persona.


    Deltarune has had its share of lolrandom events and happenings, but they should at least be framed by a somewhat consistent narrative and most importantly characters.
    On the one hand, fair...

    On the other hand, I'll hold back such judgments until the whole game is out.

    EDIT: @Lord Raziere, nice write-up! I'm a fan of the first of your candidates.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    I agree that while Chapter 2 was delightful, it lacked either the deep narrative character/party drive of Chapter 1's story or the recurring themes and crescendo buildup of Undertale.

    Seemed to rely a lot on
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    The fact that Queen is hilarious as a pseudovillain to half-pass the main story and provide a space to bring in Noelle and Berd Boy as characters for the future, along with a much stronger secret boss story thats clearly gonna be important beyond the optional dialogue later on.


    But even if the first act was too slow, it was fun when it was going! Just, hard to believe that Chapter 2 is only an hour shorter than the whole of UNDERTALE given what actually happens in it.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    It’s finally coming! Not Silksong, but I’m super excited.

    deltarune.com
    Finally. Very excited about this one. Played Undertale and Deltarune a few times each.

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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    So finished Chapter 2. For the record, I'm going full Pacifist.

    My thoughts on what's going on
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    Put me in the camp of Heart good, Kris bad.

    Kris seems to be the only human around, and he is bullied for it. He also can remove his(?) Heart which changes how he acts. We hear from other NPCs that Kris is awkward, a loner, and pretty creepy. And in general seems to be at least someone who actively creates mischief and might be a full blown sociopath.

    So why does Kris use the Heart at all? Well I think it is used as a power source. Without the Heart, Kris staggers around, struggling to move. It might also be why we can do things like flirt with opponents or talk them down when Kris is supposed to be anti-social. But that power comes with influence. While the Heart is in, we can somewhat control his actions, thus why he forcibly removes it (it is NOT a gentle process) in order to do things like slashing Toriel's tires.

    My longshot prediction? I think Kris lost his soul somehow (maybe in the incident that got Asgore fired as Chief of Police?), and somehow gained the Heart instead. And now he's on a mission to bring about the Roaring. I'm guessing he is either working for the Knight, or is the Knight himself. While he is lacking the Heart, he can create Dark Fountains. But while he doesn't have the Heart he doesn't count as a Lightner. So Kris needs us or one of his companions to destroy the world for him.

    He may be even doing this as an attempt to save Humanity. If this is a world where Humanity was sealed away or wiped out, Kris may be on a mission to wipe out monsterkind, so that humans can take over instead.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So finished Chapter 2. For the record, I'm going full Pacifist.

    My thoughts on what's going on
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    Put me in the camp of Heart good, Kris bad.

    Kris seems to be the only human around, and he is bullied for it. He also can remove his(?) Heart which changes how he acts. We hear from other NPCs that Kris is awkward, a loner, and pretty creepy. And in general seems to be at least someone who actively creates mischief and might be a full blown sociopath.

    So why does Kris use the Heart at all? Well I think it is used as a power source. Without the Heart, Kris staggers around, struggling to move. It might also be why we can do things like flirt with opponents or talk them down when Kris is supposed to be anti-social. But that power comes with influence. While the Heart is in, we can somewhat control his actions, thus why he forcibly removes it (it is NOT a gentle process) in order to do things like slashing Toriel's tires.

    My longshot prediction? I think Kris lost his soul somehow (maybe in the incident that got Asgore fired as Chief of Police?), and somehow gained the Heart instead. And now he's on a mission to bring about the Roaring. I'm guessing he is either working for the Knight, or is the Knight himself. While he is lacking the Heart, he can create Dark Fountains. But while he doesn't have the Heart he doesn't count as a Lightner. So Kris needs us or one of his companions to destroy the world for him.

    He may be even doing this as an attempt to save Humanity. If this is a world where Humanity was sealed away or wiped out, Kris may be on a mission to wipe out monsterkind, so that humans can take over instead.
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    I like it!

    Me, I think Kris is Kris, and we play as the heart. Kris is a... regularish kid (emo/disturbed/loner/nerd/whatever), but has some weird/messed up stuff going on, creating dark fountains. I think the first time he was controlled by the heart was in Deltarune chapter 1. At the end, he was peeved he was being controlled, managed to rip the heart out to go about his own business. I'd guess the creation of the first (?) dark fountain triggered us controlling the heart.

    Still at a loss for how the character creation -> discard at the beginning ties in. It's *gotta* be important.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So finished Chapter 2. For the record, I'm going full Pacifist.

    My thoughts on what's going on
    Spoiler
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    Put me in the camp of Heart good, Kris bad.

    Kris seems to be the only human around, and he is bullied for it. He also can remove his(?) Heart which changes how he acts. We hear from other NPCs that Kris is awkward, a loner, and pretty creepy. And in general seems to be at least someone who actively creates mischief and might be a full blown sociopath.

    So why does Kris use the Heart at all? Well I think it is used as a power source. Without the Heart, Kris staggers around, struggling to move. It might also be why we can do things like flirt with opponents or talk them down when Kris is supposed to be anti-social. But that power comes with influence. While the Heart is in, we can somewhat control his actions, thus why he forcibly removes it (it is NOT a gentle process) in order to do things like slashing Toriel's tires.

    My longshot prediction? I think Kris lost his soul somehow (maybe in the incident that got Asgore fired as Chief of Police?), and somehow gained the Heart instead. And now he's on a mission to bring about the Roaring. I'm guessing he is either working for the Knight, or is the Knight himself. While he is lacking the Heart, he can create Dark Fountains. But while he doesn't have the Heart he doesn't count as a Lightner. So Kris needs us or one of his companions to destroy the world for him.

    He may be even doing this as an attempt to save Humanity. If this is a world where Humanity was sealed away or wiped out, Kris may be on a mission to wipe out monsterkind, so that humans can take over instead.
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    Eh, some of this contradicts known canon.

    Ralsei for one has said that humans are Lightners and Lightners will die if the Roaring happens. if Kris is trying to save humanity, they are not achieving that in slightest if Ralsei is to be believed.

    meanwhile Queen has explicitly said that Darkners can't create Fountains. you need a Lightner with determination for that. its why she didn't just stab the ground herself and wanted Berdley or Noelle to do it. so whatever Kris is, they count as Lightner enough to create a Fountain.

    while Kris can view a book about raising humans in the library in chapter 2.....and immediately shut it when looking at pictures of other humans. odd reaction for someone who wants to save humanity, especially since they're canonically the only human in town. its implied that Kris has never MET another human in their life. and given how they put on devil horns and asked when their horns will grow to their adopted family at one point, signs point to the opposite conclusion: that they HATE being human because it ostracizes them from an entirely monster-filled town and would rather be born as one of the monsters. I don't see Kris wanting to save humanity at all.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

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    And remember, the birdcage was described as heavily used, there's almost no possibility that Chapter 1 was the first time Kris removed the Heart. ...Which brings up a question so blindingly obvious I can't believe I didn't think of it til now: We've only been in control of the Heart since Chapter 1, who or what was directing it before then?
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
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    Still at a loss for how the character creation -> discard at the beginning ties in. It's *gotta* be important.
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    I think that's the name the Heart will get. But it doesn't matter. It won't change the story or plot in any way, and may not be directly referenced either (like the name will come up if we search out a specific gravestone or something. The characters will never talk about it)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
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    Eh, some of this contradicts known canon.

    Ralsei for one has said that humans are Lightners and Lightners will die if the Roaring happens. if Kris is trying to save humanity, they are not achieving that in slightest if Ralsei is to be believed.

    meanwhile Queen has explicitly said that Darkners can't create Fountains. you need a Lightner with determination for that. its why she didn't just stab the ground herself and wanted Berdley or Noelle to do it. so whatever Kris is, they count as Lightner enough to create a Fountain.

    while Kris can view a book about raising humans in the library in chapter 2.....and immediately shut it when looking at pictures of other humans. odd reaction for someone who wants to save humanity, especially since they're canonically the only human in town. its implied that Kris has never MET another human in their life. and given how they put on devil horns and asked when their horns will grow to their adopted family at one point, signs point to the opposite conclusion: that they HATE being human because it ostracizes them from an entirely monster-filled town and would rather be born as one of the monsters. I don't see Kris wanting to save humanity at all.
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    Fair enough, Kri's motives about humanity are the biggest stretch of my prediction. It may still work if Kris believes humanity will be safe in their bunker, and is lashing out because he can't become a monster and in response to humanity being treated as the 'bad guys' in monster media. But I'll agree that that motive is unlikely.

    Queen also doesn't actually know much about the Fountains. It may be as simple as 'you can't amplify a Fountain if you were created by a Fountain.' My problem with the 'Kris counts as a Lightner', is why would he shut a Fountain down, just to create another one?
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    Fair enough, Kri's motives about humanity are the biggest stretch of my prediction. It may still work if Kris believes humanity will be safe in their bunker, and is lashing out because he can't become a monster and in response to humanity being treated as the 'bad guys' in monster media. But I'll agree that that motive is unlikely.

    Queen also doesn't actually know much about the Fountains. It may be as simple as 'you can't amplify a Fountain if you were created by a Fountain.' My problem with the 'Kris counts as a Lightner', is why would he shut a Fountain down, just to create another one?
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    No, The Heart is shutting down fountains. Thats what WE are doing. Kris has had very little say in that, if at all.

    at the very minimum, Kris saw the events of Chapter 2 and probably decided: "no screw the heart, and screw this Asriel lookalike trying to replace my big brother who I'm pretty sure the Heart is trying to make me have a romance with, which y'know EW he looks like my brother, I want to live in this cool fantasy world with my Mom and Susie because reality sucks" or something. We don't see or hear Kris putting the heart back into themselves at the end of Chapter just.....holding it out into the darkness. which is why I don't believe Kris needs the heart to power themselves, else why get rid of the Heart?
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-11-25 at 02:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
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    No, The Heart is shutting down fountains. Thats what WE are doing. Kris has had very little say in that, if at all.

    at the very minimum, Kris saw the events of Chapter 2 and probably decided: "no screw the heart, and screw this Asriel lookalike trying to replace my big brother who I'm pretty sure the Heart is trying to make me have a romance with, which y'know EW he looks like my brother, I want to live in this cool fantasy world with my Mom and Susie because reality sucks" or something. We don't see or hear Kris putting the heart back into themselves at the end of Chapter just.....holding it out into the darkness. which is why I don't believe Kris needs the heart to power themselves, else why get rid of the Heart?
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    Except we see him be able to remove the Heart whenever he apparently wants to. He could've shut down the Heart before the Fountain was sealed, and then amplified it instead if he had wanted to. Though perhaps he can't remove the Heart when in the Dark World at all. That is certainly a possibility.

    Which would explain why he got rid of the Heart. If he views the Heart as the reason the Fountains keep getting sealed then he is removing it and possibly himself from the equation. (At the last second you see Kris move before the darkness falls. It's hard to tell what he's doing, but he might be falling over. I originally thought he was actually putting the Heart back, but it does lack the sound effect from earlier.)

    Also if he doesn't need the Heart to power himself, and the Heart grants us control over him, why would he ever put the Heart back in his body?

    Speaking of Ralsei, I'm still not 100% convinced he isn't Asriel. I mean, obviously, Ralsei is just a mixed up version of Asriel's name. And they are lookalikes. And seem to have similar personalities. So have any of the characters besides Kris met both Asriel and Ralsei?
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    Except we see him be able to remove the Heart whenever he apparently wants to. He could've shut down the Heart before the Fountain was sealed, and then amplified it instead if he had wanted to. Though perhaps he can't remove the Heart when in the Dark World at all. That is certainly a possibility.

    Which would explain why he got rid of the Heart. If he views the Heart as the reason the Fountains keep getting sealed then he is removing it and possibly himself from the equation. (At the last second you see Kris move before the darkness falls. It's hard to tell what he's doing, but he might be falling over. I originally thought he was actually putting the Heart back, but it does lack the sound effect from earlier.)

    Also if he doesn't need the Heart to power himself, and the Heart grants us control over him, why would he ever put the Heart back in his body?

    Speaking of Ralsei, I'm still not 100% convinced he isn't Asriel. I mean, obviously, Ralsei is just a mixed up version of Asriel's name. And they are lookalikes. And seem to have similar personalities. So have any of the characters besides Kris met both Asriel and Ralsei?
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    That is good points about the heart-tearing out and I'm not sure what is up with that.

    Problem with that:
    Kris doesn't like Ralsei. there is a tea that restores differing amounts of health depending on the flavor you drink and they seem to roughly correspond to how much the person likes the other person- y'know the "choose your flavor" guy. and Ralsei Tea restores the least amount of health to Kris, only 60 hp, while all the other teas restore more.

    as for Ralsei, he literally cannot be Asriel. Asgore or Toriel said it themselves: Asriel is coming over for the dinner they are going to have at the end of the week, aka when Chapter 7 arrives. Asgore or Toriel doesn't know about Dark World and they have phones to call him, and phones don't work in Dark Worlds (as we know whenever we try to use our phone in one it just gets gaster noise) so if they have contact with him he can't be IN ONE, and Ralsei never leaves the Dark World- we never see him outside one. like why would Asriel, a person older than Kris in college be hanging around in a Dark world closet at his old school claiming to be prince of darkness and acting like he's never had a friend before? Why stay away from his family for a week if he is in town? doesn't make sense. furthermore, Queen has search history on Asriel and was able to recognize Suzie, Noelle and Kris from theirs, but doesn't recognize Ralsei, so if Ralsei is Asriel how does that work?

    and sure Ralsei somehow got to the Cyberworld without our knowledge, but we don't know if thats actually him being able to traverse light world somehow or if he can somehow just sense when dark fountains spring up or something and he just teleports there or uses a special door to them like we do when we return to previous areas. magic is involved there can be ways around obstacles like that.


    Some unrelated theories I've come up with:
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    A possible thing that could help connect Deltarune and Undertale is the Core from Undertale. we know that Gaster is involved in Dark world stuff, and we know that for some reason the Undertale underground is strange. so what if Gaster to help the monsters of Undertale survive, opened a Dark Fountain but not in a usual way, but scientifically in a way that the Core uses the dark fountains energy to power the Underground so that instead of creating this new pocket dimension of new made up people, it instead infuses with the environment with darkness to make it a wonderworld without spawning Darkners. it would explain Hotland and Snowdin I think.


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    Basically:
    The Sans we meet in Undertale is from the Deltarune universe

    The Sans we meet in Deltarune is from the Undertale universe.

    the Sans we meet in Undertale can both bleed and use magic which is a Darkner trait and said that he "gave up trying to go back long ago." while a shopkeep said that the two skeletons just showed one day and asserted themselves in Snowdin.

    meanwhile the Sans we meet in Deltarune has both Grillby's and his house transported here as if he just took them and plopped them down in a completely different world and claims they've never met us before. what if he isn't lying?

    basically, somehow the two Sanses either at the same time or at separate times switched their places. for the Sans we meet in Undertale the switch clearly wasn't willing and made them trapped in a world that is similar but not quite like his own. what if Undertale-Originated Sans intentionally did something to make himself switch with Deltarune-originated Sans so as to escape Flowey or the Underground?

    it would also explain why the Sans we meet in Undertale has one of those Darkner-doors and why they can work there, tying into my Core powered by a Dark Fountain theory: the Underground might be the only place where those doors CAN work in that world.

    it would also line up with all the other monsters having parallel universe versions of each other. we're still meeting a different Sans, its just we were mistaken about which one is from which.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  26. - Top - End - #26
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
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    That is good points about the heart-tearing out and I'm not sure what is up with that.

    Problem with that:
    Kris doesn't like Ralsei. there is a tea that restores differing amounts of health depending on the flavor you drink and they seem to roughly correspond to how much the person likes the other person- y'know the "choose your flavor" guy. and Ralsei Tea restores the least amount of health to Kris, only 60 hp, while all the other teas restore more.

    as for Ralsei, he literally cannot be Asriel. Asgore or Toriel said it themselves: Asriel is coming over for the dinner they are going to have at the end of the week, aka when Chapter 7 arrives. Asgore or Toriel doesn't know about Dark World and they have phones to call him, and phones don't work in Dark Worlds (as we know whenever we try to use our phone in one it just gets gaster noise) so if they have contact with him he can't be IN ONE, and Ralsei never leaves the Dark World- we never see him outside one. like why would Asriel, a person older than Kris in college be hanging around in a Dark world closet at his old school claiming to be prince of darkness and acting like he's never had a friend before? Why stay away from his family for a week if he is in town? doesn't make sense. furthermore, Queen has search history on Asriel and was able to recognize Suzie, Noelle and Kris from theirs, but doesn't recognize Ralsei, so if Ralsei is Asriel how does that work?

    and sure Ralsei somehow got to the Cyberworld without our knowledge, but we don't know if thats actually him being able to traverse light world somehow or if he can somehow just sense when dark fountains spring up or something and he just teleports there or uses a special door to them like we do when we return to previous areas. magic is involved there can be ways around obstacles like that.


    Some unrelated theories I've come up with:
    Spoiler: Dark Fountains and the Core
    Show

    A possible thing that could help connect Deltarune and Undertale is the Core from Undertale. we know that Gaster is involved in Dark world stuff, and we know that for some reason the Undertale underground is strange. so what if Gaster to help the monsters of Undertale survive, opened a Dark Fountain but not in a usual way, but scientifically in a way that the Core uses the dark fountains energy to power the Underground so that instead of creating this new pocket dimension of new made up people, it instead infuses with the environment with darkness to make it a wonderworld without spawning Darkners. it would explain Hotland and Snowdin I think.


    Spoiler: The Sans Swap Theory
    Show

    Basically:
    The Sans we meet in Undertale is from the Deltarune universe

    The Sans we meet in Deltarune is from the Undertale universe.

    the Sans we meet in Undertale can both bleed and use magic which is a Darkner trait and said that he "gave up trying to go back long ago." while a shopkeep said that the two skeletons just showed one day and asserted themselves in Snowdin.

    meanwhile the Sans we meet in Deltarune has both Grillby's and his house transported here as if he just took them and plopped them down in a completely different world and claims they've never met us before. what if he isn't lying?

    basically, somehow the two Sanses either at the same time or at separate times switched their places. for the Sans we meet in Undertale the switch clearly wasn't willing and made them trapped in a world that is similar but not quite like his own. what if Undertale-Originated Sans intentionally did something to make himself switch with Deltarune-originated Sans so as to escape Flowey or the Underground?

    it would also explain why the Sans we meet in Undertale has one of those Darkner-doors and why they can work there, tying into my Core powered by a Dark Fountain theory: the Underground might be the only place where those doors CAN work in that world.

    it would also line up with all the other monsters having parallel universe versions of each other. we're still meeting a different Sans, its just we were mistaken about which one is from which.
    Spoiler: Asriel is Ralsei theory
    Show
    Admittedly this is an absolute screwball of a theory. But just for the sake of argument:

    1. We don't really know if Kris likes Asriel either. The fact that he opened Asriel's room with his eyes closed kinda points to that.

    2. Sure, it is possible. He's officially coming over in a week, but he could have arrived a week early in order to be Ralsei. While we only see him in the Dark World, that doesn't mean he can only exist in the Dark World. And we know he isn't an ordinary Darkner, he isn't affected by traveling from world to world at all. So his conversations with his parents could happen outside the Dark World, particularly if Asriel is the one phoning them, and thus avoiding Toriel and Asgore getting dropped calls.

    3. Queen doesn't recognize Asriel because he is in disguise. Asriel might actually be holding 7 human souls, and that's why monsterkind is free now, and the world has no humans about. It might even be the source of the Heart. After *THE INCIDENT* (may not have actually happened), Kris was dying (or lost his soul) so Asriel gave him the Heart, actually one of the 7 original souls. And now in order to play along, he has (temporarily) relinquished the souls in order to transform into Ralsei.

    4. Why he is doing this is an interesting question. My original theory was as a gift to Kris. A place where Kris could be the hero, save the day, and have an adventure. Where he could gather and play with all his friends in his own town. Where instead of Asriel being the older brother with amazing cosmic powers, he is Ralsei, nothing more than a helpful minion/friend. I'm not sure how true that holds with the revelation that there is an actual danger to the world now, but I could see it as a possibility that Asriel could draw in his full power and step in to save the day, but is giving Kris the chance instead, and just coming along as Ralsei to make sure nothing goes wrong.



    Spoiler: Dark Core
    Show
    I'm honestly not a fan of theories that connect Undertale and Deltarune that much, so I'm biased. I don't think that works though. The monsters discovered Snowdin as Snowdin before they ever built the CORE and Gaster went missing.


    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show
    That's possible but I don't think so. The Sans in Deltarune doesn't seem to be a Darkner. From what we can see, he is just an ordinary monster, so that part doesn't apply. And while Sans' door has the same visual effects as the Darkner doors, it operates like a normal door when we use it.
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Spoiler: Asriel is Ralsei theory
    Show
    Admittedly this is an absolute screwball of a theory. But just for the sake of argument:

    1. We don't really know if Kris likes Asriel either. The fact that he opened Asriel's room with his eyes closed kinda points to that.

    2. Sure, it is possible. He's officially coming over in a week, but he could have arrived a week early in order to be Ralsei. While we only see him in the Dark World, that doesn't mean he can only exist in the Dark World. And we know he isn't an ordinary Darkner, he isn't affected by traveling from world to world at all. So his conversations with his parents could happen outside the Dark World, particularly if Asriel is the one phoning them, and thus avoiding Toriel and Asgore getting dropped calls.

    3. Queen doesn't recognize Asriel because he is in disguise. Asriel might actually be holding 7 human souls, and that's why monsterkind is free now, and the world has no humans about. It might even be the source of the Heart. After *THE INCIDENT* (may not have actually happened), Kris was dying (or lost his soul) so Asriel gave him the Heart, actually one of the 7 original souls. And now in order to play along, he has (temporarily) relinquished the souls in order to transform into Ralsei.

    4. Why he is doing this is an interesting question. My original theory was as a gift to Kris. A place where Kris could be the hero, save the day, and have an adventure. Where he could gather and play with all his friends in his own town. Where instead of Asriel being the older brother with amazing cosmic powers, he is Ralsei, nothing more than a helpful minion/friend. I'm not sure how true that holds with the revelation that there is an actual danger to the world now, but I could see it as a possibility that Asriel could draw in his full power and step in to save the day, but is giving Kris the chance instead, and just coming along as Ralsei to make sure nothing goes wrong.



    Spoiler: Dark Core
    Show
    I'm honestly not a fan of theories that connect Undertale and Deltarune that much, so I'm biased. I don't think that works though. The monsters discovered Snowdin as Snowdin before they ever built the CORE and Gaster went missing.


    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show
    That's possible but I don't think so. The Sans in Deltarune doesn't seem to be a Darkner. From what we can see, he is just an ordinary monster, so that part doesn't apply. And while Sans' door has the same visual effects as the Darkner doors, it operates like a normal door when we use it.
    Spoiler: Asriel is Ralsei theory
    Show
    1. Or he respects his older brothers privacy? there is no evidence for him hating Asriel.

    3. Except Kris and Suzie change their appearances a bit every time they go into a Dark World: Kris goes from green shirted to blue/pink colored and Suzie acquires a cooler outfit, and Noelle gets a white dress. she has enough facial recognition software to recognize them as them in different clothes but not when a box is over Noelle's face, and ralsei shows his face enough to be recognizable as an aSriel lookalike by us- he isn't wearing that hat anymore, and Ralsei being a disguise for Asriel has a critical flaw: he is too short. we know that just by looking at Toriel and Asgore that a college kid would be taller.

    4. there is no evidence that asriel has cosmic powers. from what we gather from all the information in town, he lived a normal town life, playing mario bros and super smash bros, even crying and confessing to a priest that he sacrificed a yoshi for a jump. if he had cosmic powers, wouldn't he fix this minor thing just so he wouldn't HAVE to sacrifice the Yoshi? wouldn't he care about his parents breaking up and constantly reset the day they did until they didn't divorce? and the room, his side is full of trophies and such while Kris's side is.....empty, why wait until Kris is a moody teenager to do this, wouldn't make it more sense to try and do this when they're a child and could probably more easily fool them, give them confidence to do things and socialize instead of right now? your right your theory is screwball, because it doesn't seem plausible to me.


    Spoiler: Dark Core
    Show
    Then it could be that the Dark Fountain was there before, how else do you explain snow being underground and a lava place without anyone dying of convection?


    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show
    Well yeah the Sans in Deltarune is not a Darkner, they're from Undertale. the Darkner Sans is in Undertale.

    as for the Sans door....does it? you don't know that. you don't know where San's room is located. It could be anywhere and just connected to the house through that door. it could also be that only Sans knows how to use it to go anywhere else. could be apart of his "shortcuts".
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Asriel is Ralsei theory
    Show
    1. Or he respects his older brothers privacy? there is no evidence for him hating Asriel.

    3. Except Kris and Suzie change their appearances a bit every time they go into a Dark World: Kris goes from green shirted to blue/pink colored and Suzie acquires a cooler outfit, and Noelle gets a white dress. she has enough facial recognition software to recognize them as them in different clothes but not when a box is over Noelle's face, and ralsei shows his face enough to be recognizable as an aSriel lookalike by us- he isn't wearing that hat anymore, and Ralsei being a disguise for Asriel has a critical flaw: he is too short. we know that just by looking at Toriel and Asgore that a college kid would be taller.

    4. there is no evidence that asriel has cosmic powers. from what we gather from all the information in town, he lived a normal town life, playing mario bros and super smash bros, even crying and confessing to a priest that he sacrificed a yoshi for a jump. if he had cosmic powers, wouldn't he fix this minor thing just so he wouldn't HAVE to sacrifice the Yoshi? wouldn't he care about his parents breaking up and constantly reset the day they did until they didn't divorce? and the room, his side is full of trophies and such while Kris's side is.....empty, why wait until Kris is a moody teenager to do this, wouldn't make it more sense to try and do this when they're a child and could probably more easily fool them, give them confidence to do things and socialize instead of right now? your right your theory is screwball, because it doesn't seem plausible to me.


    Spoiler: Dark Core
    Show
    Then it could be that the Dark Fountain was there before, how else do you explain snow being underground and a lava place without anyone dying of convection?


    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show
    Well yeah the Sans in Deltarune is not a Darkner, they're from Undertale. the Darkner Sans is in Undertale.

    as for the Sans door....does it? you don't know that. you don't know where San's room is located. It could be anywhere and just connected to the house through that door. it could also be that only Sans knows how to use it to go anywhere else. could be apart of his "shortcuts".
    Spoiler: Asriel is Ralsei
    Show
    1. It isn't confirmed, but many tropes for 'Kris is jealous of Asriel' have happened. Enough for the possibility to exist anyways. Or to put it another way, it isn't falsified. Yet.

    3. Ah, but Asriel is going from college adult like form to the child like Ralsei. That's a massive difference in appearance, and could throw off even close relatives. We know he's an Asriel lookalike because we see the two together in a short timespan. Presumably, it has been years since Asriel has looked like Ralsei

    4. That's true. There is no evidence of Asriel having cosmic powers. We don't know how or why Deltarune's timeline differs from Undertale's yet, and why the monsters are running free. I'm more suspecting he has them (or could have them) based off of him having them in Undertale. As for why he didn't use them for minor things, well I imagine he stopped using them in order to live a relatively normal life and so he could have a relatively equal relationship with those around him.

    Why he is helping Kris right now, is likely because he's been away for a while and wants to do something for his brother.

    I don't really think this theory is all that likely, and Chapter 2 made it even more unlikely. But it is an answer for the mystery of Ralsei.


    Spoiler: Dark Core
    Show
    Magic from the barrier to make it a place that is actually habitable. Which fits into my theory that the human mages who sealed away the monsters actually did so to protect the remaining monsters from being wiped out by humanity.


    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show
    No, I mean why is Sans the only monster who is actually a Darkner? Everyone else we talk to in Deltarune is a normal monster. Why would Sans secretly be a Darkner before he was swapped with the Undertale Sans? I'm not sure that's even actually possible. The other Darkners we see turn into objects when brought into the Lightners world.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Spoiler: Sans Swap
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    No, I mean why is Sans the only monster who is actually a Darkner? Everyone else we talk to in Deltarune is a normal monster. Why would Sans secretly be a Darkner before he was swapped with the Undertale Sans? I'm not sure that's even actually possible. The other Darkners we see turn into objects when brought into the Lightners world.
    Spoiler: Sans Swap
    Show

    Let counter with another question:
    If Sans ISN'T a Darkner, how can he bleed in Undertale? because monsters in Undertale are made of dust and break down as dust when they die, as well as absorb any food they eat into them magically. So Sans in Undertale can't have drank ketchup to fake blood, and some blood comes out of his mouth when he gets slashed, so it can't just be ketchup bottle in his coat. we know that Darkners do bleed and have blood however from on the conversations with Lancer in Chapter 1 where he makes a threat involving buckets of blood, which undertale monsters wouldn't know about they fall to dust instead.

    Undertale monsters can use magic and fall to dust.
    Deltarune darkner monsters can use magic and bleed.
    Lightner monsters can't use magic in normal world and bleed.

    so what is Sans, if not a Darkner? he can't be a Lightner, they can't use magic unless in a dark world.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: Deltarune Chapter 2 release 17 Sep

    My theory on Ralsei (and Dark World's as a whole), since I figure I may as well throw my hat in the ring.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Darkner's can only be made by the things around you. Everyone's outfits are made of their clothing, all the residents and environment are made of the items and objects within the room, etc etc.

    So what is Ralsei made of?

    Well, given Kris's home life and their duel nature as both Knight and Lightner, due to being both the Heart (ie you) and themself... your Determination becomes their armour and sword, and Kris's hand-me down clothes (and the dust from around the room, ever present and soft and definitely not dangerous except when it suddenly is) become Ralsei- a younger version of Asriel that allows Kris to be the older, cooler sibling.

    Some evidence and explanation for this;

    - Darkners exist, per Ralsei, only to make you feel better. Kris has identity issues and feels a weird distorted bond with their brother. Friendless, always the little baby, and not a monster so must be protected. In the Dark World, they become a hero, and Ralsei exists for them, basically. He's just so nice he extends his help to others as well.

    - Taking the taste tea into perspective; Noelle, who does not know who Ralsei is, but DOES know Asriel... sees Ralsei's cup as just empty. There's nothing in there. He exists purely for Kris, made of Kris's worn clothing and dust and feelings about Asriel.

    - When Ralsei is KO'd, in either game, he just poofs into clothing, as if his body has just poofed away like dust. He's also very fluffy and cute, like a dust bunny (or goat, if you will)

    - Again, Darkners can only exist in a world made from the room tthey exist in... or Ralsei's. Ralsei is the one exception, able to live everywhere. This suggests that something about what he is made of is different or intrinsic to darkness... like dust, which is Everywhere and Unavoidable.

    - Every dark world so far has taken on aspects of the people involved and focused itself towards helping them. The first world featured an abusive **** heel dad who gets to be beaten up. Susie, we know from stuff in Chapter 2, has a pretty bad home life. We also know Kris has issues with their dad as well given... everything, really. The second world was far more focused on Noelle (and to a lesser degree Berdly, because his trauma while important isn't actually that Big compared to Noelle's) and was about an overbearing but unattentive mother who wants What Is Best and will disregard your own feelings... which is exactly how her hard ass mayor mom sounds like in real life. The "hub" that Ralsei is from is clearly meant to be a ideal town for Kris (and friends) and is more closely linked to Kris's desires. Note how Kris's room is only their own bed, but they get all the trophies and stuff.

    obviously, with only three dark worlds and two chapters to go on this is all subjective reasoning. Once Chapter 3 is out we'll see if there is more support.

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