Wisadins: am I breaking something by allowing WIS paladins?

[Magicspook]

Hello loremasters,

One of my players (lvl 5 nature cleric) has stated they would like to multiclass into ancients paladin soon. Their primary motivation for this would be to enhance their tanking and supporting abilities. However, it turns out that they made charisma their dump stat and they can't actually multiclass.

I am of a mind to allow the player to plas as a WIS paladin, aka using wisdom for the spellcasting, aura, and multiclass requirement. My question to you is: would that break anything?

NB: this player is famous for playing unoptimised characters like a rogue who only uses dual clubs. They are already happy if I just waive the multiclass requirements. I don't expect this player to come up with some broken-ass master build later on, but just in case, hit me with possible ways that the wisadin can break the game.

[noob]

Hello loremasters,

One of my players (lvl 5 nature cleric) has stated they would like to multiclass into ancients paladin soon. Their primary motivation for this would be to enhance their tanking and supporting abilities. However, it turns out that they made charisma their dump stat and they can't actually multiclass.

I am of a mind to allow the player to plas as a WIS paladin, aka using wisdom for the spellcasting, aura, and multiclass requirement. My question to you is: would that break anything?

NB: this player is famous for playing unoptimised characters like a rogue who only uses dual clubs. They are already happy if I just waive the multiclass requirements. I don't expect this player to come up with some broken-ass master build later on, but just in case, hit me with possible ways that the wisadin can break the game.

It is not broken: the best multiclassing stat is charisma because of the warlock being an extremely good class to dip into.
Paladin is not a very good dip class in itself because it takes a lot of levels to get the really good class features because it is less frontloaded than most other classes.
Now if it was about the cleric dipping in wisdom warlock it would be a different matter.

[Kane0]

Not at all. Ive been permitting Wis Paladin and Int Warlock for years and neither have caused a problem yet.

[Khrysaes]

It is not broken: the best multiclassing stat is charisma because of the warlock being an extremely good class to dip into.
Paladin is not a very good dip class in itself because it takes a lot of levels to get the really good class features because it is less frontloaded than most other classes.
Now if it was about the cleric dipping in wisdom warlock it would be a different matter.

I would argue that Paladin is a good dip for bards and sorcerers because smite pairs well with their higher level spell slots and earlier access to them. And MAYBE the heavy armor proficiency, although for sorcerer that is between the proficiency and con saves.

But otherwise, yeah. Not the greatest for dipping.

That said, a wisdom paladin would be the the same, but for cleric and druid instead. It would also pair well with ranger. Especially if all features that use charisma are now wisdom based. Many clerics get a "wisdom bonus to cantrip damage" so theoretically, an Arcane Cleric with booming blade could use wisdom for attack, damage, spellcasting, and if 6 paladin, saves. Which is effectively the same as a paladin/sorcerer/warlock/bard multiclass. Not all of them, but those classes.

[Hytheter]

I would argue that Paladin is a good dip for bards and sorcerers because smite pairs well with their higher level spell slots and earlier access to them.

Sorcadins are a noted multiclass combo for sure, and I've seen a devastating Swords Bardadin.

That said, a wisdom paladin would be the the same, but for cleric and druid instead.

Basically this. Clerics are decent in Melee already, so being able to smite would be a potent addition. A smiting moon druid would be pretty nasty as well. But I doubt they'd be any more problematic than the charisma combos that can already be achieved.

[Magicspook]

Thanks folks! I'll give my player the good news.

[Chronic]

Since when are clerics decent in melee? Oo
They have one good melee build basically, the rest is pretty much awful. I mean no multi attacks, Mad, either no riders or bad ones on attacks, feat starved when it comes to melee builds.
Wisdom paladin for someone who doesn't play optimized should be OK.

[da newt]

I'd bet if you gave a handful of optimizers a week to figure out how to build the most OP WIS based Cleric-Paladin they could come up with some great synergies that rival the power levels of the pali-lock and sorc-adin etc, but for a Player who doesn't power game, I don't see any red flags.

[Hytheter]

I do find myself wondering what can be done with it.

Slow burn, but Paladin 6/Cleric X would be a strong melee hitter with a nice aura and eventually 7th level spells in slots up to 9th. War Cleric for bonus attacks?

Paladin 6/Monk 14 gets proficiency in all saves and adds Wisdom to them all. That's a distant goal, of course, but in the meantime you get a flurry of smites (gm willing) with eventual stuns, good mobility, some support spells, and good saves with evasion. Unfortunately paladin requires 13 str to multiclass. Hardly optimal but fun.

Paladin 2/Moon Druid X. You can't cast in wild shape so you might as well be smiting with those slots. Again may require a DM who is permissive about what you can and can't smite with. The smite dip sounds fun for a melee ranger too.

[RogueJK]

Paladin 2/Moon Druid X. You can't cast in wild shape so you might as well be smiting with those slots. Again may require a DM who is permissive about what you can and can't smite with.

That's doable as-is, without any homebrew WIS-based Paladins or DM discretion. Divine Smite requires a melee weapon attack, and all Wild Shapes have the ability to make melee weapon attacks.

Point Buy would look something like:
STR 13
DEX 13+1
CON 13
INT 8
WIS 14+2
CHA 13
Start Druid 1 relying on Cantrip, Medium Armor, and Shield. Take Druid 2 next for Moon Druid Combat Wild Shape. Go Paladin 2 next, picking up Smite and the Blind Fighting style, and then back to Druid for the remainder. Resilient CON at Druid 4, then +2 WIS at 8 and 12.

The main issue is that Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape capability scales based on Druid level, and even on a single-classed Moon Druid already barely keeps up with the enemy power scaling starting in Tier 2+. So being 2 levels behind in Wild Shape options will hurt, with you being noticeably behind the power curve. Extra nova damage output from Smite won't completely make up for that. (Even a 1 level dip into Monk/Barbarian is noticeable on a Moon Druid, though the added Wild Shape AC helps to cover the gap better than Smite damage would.)

[loki_ragnarock]

The best answer I can give you is going to be based on where they're starting from.

Ranger/Paladin? Not going to break your game. The two classes don't play well enough together to really jive.

Wizard/Paladin? Probably not going to break your game. Spellcasting is accelerated, you could theoretically run a paladin two/bladesinger X or something and wind up with a smitey sucker, but that maintains the classic MADness that discourages such to begin with.

Cleric/Paladin?
Knowledge Cleric/Paladin? Probably not breaking your game. Anti-synergy with potent spellcasting, unless you expect to be forced to function at range primarily. Would serve to diversify the character significantly, as it lends itself to fill in the gaps in the paladin; at will ranged combat options, exploration options in the form of knowledge and skill checks. This would make for a fun character, would probably still fall a bit shy of the bardadin in those aspects, but not too far off the mark.
Trickery Cleric/Paladin? Probably not breaking your game. Divine Strike is a synergy, but the damage type is often ignored/resisted. Serves to diversify the Paladin by - once again - filling in the gaps, this time in the stealth department. The spell list has some low hanging defensive fruit in the form of mirror image as a zero concentration get out of hits free card, but that's nothing you couldn't simulate with a sorcerer or warlock before. And the stealth boosts are less impactful if taking paladin second; no heavy armor means you don't need as much help in that department.
Nature Cleric/Paladin: Probably not game breaking, but potentially strong. Shillelagh + shield + staff + PAM = very high AC, aggressive paladin build that doesn't have to rely on strength for melee. Add in heavy armor and you'll need a little strength (no more than you'd need to multi-class, really), but can dump dexterity. Synergy in the form of a very versatile divine strike. So an effective combat build for sure, that doesn't really need (much) strength or dexterity to achieve it, freeing one to focus on constitution for added durability.
War Cleric/Paladin? Might break your game. Simulates polearm master without the feat wis mod per day, more attacks in a round is more single target burst damage on a paladin chassis, a channel divinity (x2 short rest eventually) that ensures you land that GWM attack, divine strike slotting in as a substitute for Improved Divine Smite and easing the multiclass burden, heavy armor regardless of starting class*and* the normal accelerated spell slot acquisition?
That's rivaling Sorcadin into Wardincerer territory. Which is to say, probably not unprecedented, but stronk; niche of really being very good at killing something when it needs killed, it'll burn down enemies with efficiency. Bossbreaker, right there. That can unbalance a game pretty easily, and most of those concerning abilities are front loaded. As a counter to Nature Cleric, you can almost dump wis to the multi-class floor and still wreck face.

And of course, all clerics get Spirit Guardians as an aura effect that's made all the better with melee proximity. It's not a bad package at all; just some of the subclasses pump it up to eye watering levels.

Druid/Paladin? Depends.
Land Druid? Not going to break anything. Wildshape mostly adds some exploration potential in this case. Spell lists, while interesting, largely aren't doing much meaningfully different than a paladin/sorcerer/warlock. Shillelagh can remove the strength element from attacks, I suppose, and lends itself to a shield, staff, and PAM build. But the "no metal armor" restriction serves as a pretty harsh cap to chasing AC. The nature cleric is probably better.
Moon Druid? Gonna break something, because moon druids are already pretty broken. Adding nigh infinite hp to the paladin package of high as a kite saves and astronomical damage output? I mean... I guess if the goal is to tank, you can't do much better than that? Turn into something like a bear with relatively low AC, hit like a truck, enemies attack you and *feel* like they're doing something while you chuckle behind your pool of phantom hp.


Mostly it's not going to be any worse than what's already possible, with the exception of the moon druid.

[CheddarChampion]

It's not broken, but it is a buff to an already powerful class.

A higher Wisdom save more than makes up for a lower Charisma save.

[Frogreaver]

I'd bet if you gave a handful of optimizers a week to figure out how to build the most OP WIS based Cleric-Paladin they could come up with some great synergies that rival the power levels of the pali-lock and sorc-adin etc, but for a Player who doesn't power game, I don't see any red flags.

When you realize why the charisma caster multiclasses are strong, you realize it's mostly because they add either bonus action or reaction spells. (Shield, Absorb elements, Quicken Spell, Bardic Inspiration, Hex, Hexblade curse, etc). They can add an action free way to key your attacks off your casting/aura stat, sword bard can use bardic inspiration dice to buff damage and ac with no action required.

Clerics don't get any of that. They get spiritual weapon and spirit guardians and some channel divinity options (and an extra channel divinity use at level 6). So IMO, a cleric is just never going to synergize as well.

[Tanarii]

Nope. I'd say you're fixing something that is slightly 'broken' in 5e (Paladins MC options based on Cha), but was based on a sacred cow carried over from previous editions (Paladins need high Cha).

The only thing I can think of is that Wis saves seem more common than Cha saves. But I'd say that's balanced out by Wis skills not lining up, only Insight and the commonly viewed as useless Mediicie are class skills. On the plus side regarding skills, they'll be better at riding!

[strangebloke]

Nope. I'd say you're fixing something that is slightly 'broken' in 5e (Paladins MC options based on Cha), but was based on a sacred cow carried over from previous editions (Paladins need high Cha).

The only thing I can think of is that Wis saves seem more common than Cha saves. But I'd say that's balanced out by Wis skills not lining up, only Insight and the commonly viewed as useless Mediicie are class skills. On the plus side regarding skills, they'll be better at riding!

yeah IMO if you ignore multiclassing, switching from CHA to WIS is a buff because of how much better WIS saves are than CHA saves, and because of how important skills like survival and perception are. There's also the fact that there will almost always be another charisma character in a party of five, while there often won't be another wisdom character, at least IME.

But the problem with incestuous CHA multiclassing isn't just warlock dips, its also that sorcerer is basically built for multiclassing.

[Frogreaver]

yeah IMO if you ignore multiclassing, switching from CHA to WIS is a buff because of how much better WIS saves are than CHA saves, and because of how important skills like survival and perception are. There's also the fact that there will almost always be another charisma character in a party of five, while there often won't be another wisdom character, at least IME.

But the problem with incestuous CHA multiclassing isn't just warlock dips, its also that sorcerer is basically built for multiclassing.

I'd push back there a bit. I would say Wisdom has the better saves and Charisma has the better skills.

Perception is usually a check multiple party members make (makes it almost like super advantage -> which makes losing some bonus on it much less consequential). Survival is often similar in that multiple characters often participate in the check.

Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception is usually a only a single PC ever rolling the check and so the bonus tends to be much more impactful.

[Magicspook]

Hold up they're playing a life cleric, not nature. Oops.

Anyway, thanks for all your suggestions!

[DwarfFighter]

It is not broken: the best multiclassing stat is charisma because of the warlock being an extremely good class to dip into.
Paladin is not a very good dip class in itself because it takes a lot of levels to get the really good class features because it is less frontloaded than most other classes.
Now if it was about the cleric dipping in wisdom warlock it would be a different matter.

But multi classing is an optional rule, though.

[Witty Username]

No, Paladins used wisdom in the previous editions, and it didn't break the game then.
As for 5e the only issue would be in the effectiveness between the scores, in the case of Cha and Wis they are pretty comparable, it is mostly about what areas of the game you want to effect.

[strangebloke]

I'd push back there a bit. I would say Wisdom has the better saves and Charisma has the better skills.

Perception is usually a check multiple party members make (makes it almost like super advantage -> which makes losing some bonus on it much less consequential). Survival is often similar in that multiple characters often participate in the check.

Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception is usually a only a single PC ever rolling the check and so the bonus tends to be much more impactful.

Skills always come down to how things are handled at the table. At my table passive perception is what determines surprise so its very important, especially if you're the only person on watch at the camp. A party where the best perception score is a WIS-focused class with proficiency will have 17-19 PP, a party whereas the best perception score is just someone with proficiency will only have 12-14. It's a pretty major difference, mathematically.

Persuasion, conversely, might have only one person "on point" but I'll frequently see help/guidance/bardic inspiration contribute.

[noob]

But multi classing is an optional rule, though.

And the gm in this thread is speaking about wis paladins in the context of multiclassing a cleric.

[Tanarii]

And the gm in this thread is speaking about wis paladins in the context of multiclassing a cleric.

MC Paladin is far more useful for warlock or sorcerer than for a Cleric, because of Heavy Armor alone. The other way around is kind of funky. Since it was "ancients Paladin" in the OP, I'm assuming at least 3 levels is intended.

Or, yknow, the entire purpose could just be thematic reasons.

[Kuulvheysoon]

No, Paladins used wisdom in the previous editions, and it didn't break the game then.
As for 5e the only issue would be in the effectiveness between the scores, in the case of Cha and Wis they are pretty comparable, it is mostly about what areas of the game you want to effect.

Paladins only used Wisdom for spells in 2E and 3.5E (I'm not familiar with 4E, so I can't speak to it). Their iconic class features (divine grace, lay on hands, smite evil, turn undead) were all Charisma-based.

The biggest issue that I see is that a (former) full caster, you're going to be seeing the full +5 bonus to saves through aura of protection (if they get that far). You'll be looking at a nerfed sorcadin, basically. If they tend to not optimize and are taking it more for thematic reasons, you should be fine.

[DwarfFighter]

And the gm in this thread is speaking about wis paladins in the context of multiclassing a cleric.

Can't break what's already broken, then.

[LordShade]

Paladin 6 / Twilight 14 FTW

[sithlordnergal]

Moon Druid? Gonna break something, because moon druids are already pretty broken. Adding nigh infinite hp to the paladin package of high as a kite saves and astronomical damage output? I mean... I guess if the goal is to tank, you can't do much better than that? Turn into something like a bear with relatively low AC, hit like a truck, enemies attack you and *feel* like they're doing something while you chuckle behind your pool of phantom hp.


Mostly it's not going to be any worse than what's already possible, with the exception of the moon druid.

Mmmm, I actually don't think the Moon Druid would actually be that bad for multuclassing. Moon Druids tank via HP from Wild Shape, and their Wild Shape scales at 1/3rd their Druid level. You also only get 2 Wild Shapes per short rest. Now, when you're single classed its OP, simply because you're generally getting stronger forms every time the party hits a significant milestone, and at level 20 you just get infinite Wild Shapes mixed with permanent Subtle Spell and more.

But once you multiclass you start to lose out. Being able to turn into a Giant Constrictor Snake with 60 hp but 1 attack twice per short rest is amazing at levels 6 and 7, but falls short at around level 8, and by level 9 you generally want to be a Giant Scorpion. Same goes with all the other milestones when your Wild Shape improves.

By taking 2 levels of Paladin, you have put off your Wild Shape advancment, which ends up with you having to use forms that may not be very useful at your levels.

Now, if you want a Druid that does cause trouble when you take levels of Paladin, you should look at:

Wildfire Druid

Spores Druid

Dreams Druid.

Mixing any of those with 6 levels of Paladin can really improve a Paladin's abilities. The Wildfire Druid gets an ally that they command with a Bonus Action, something Paladins rarely use, that can make Ranged attacks or use a teleport that targets themselves and allies, and damages enemies at the same time.

Spore Druids gain temp HP, their melee attacks deal bonus Necrotic damage, and you gain a pretty handy battlefield control ability at level 10.

Dream Druids let you essentially become the party Cleric, letting you have Lay on Hands plus Balm of the Summer Court. Balm of the Summer Court has a 120ft range, uses a Bonus Action, and heals for 1d6 plus 1 temp hp per die used to heal. And at level 10 you basically get improved Misty Step, letting you teleport up to 60 feet as a Bonus Action, or letting you teleport an ally up to 30 feet as an action.


Edit: I forgot, Shepard Druid also causes problems, but that's less to do with Paladin abilities mixing with Druid abilities, and more to do with "Conjure Animal is already an insanely OP spell, and letting the summons do magical damage while also giving them higher HP and letting the Druid have the ability to heal everyone in a 30ft radius sphere with one spell is nuts"

[Man_Over_Game]

You'll be looking at a nerfed sorcadin, basically.

Everything between "The Best" and "The Worst" is balanced. Considering Warlock/Sorcerer Paladin hybrids are still very strong, with their extra spell slots, metamagic, Shield spell and/or invocations, an optimized Cleric/Paladin hybrid is not going to be a problem.

If anything, Paladin/Cleric has an antisynergy, something that's weaker with them combined. You get a new way to spend your Channel Divinity, but you don't get another use of it, which is like if a Wizard leveled up to get a new spell but no new spell slots.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Everything between "The Best" and "The Worst" is balanced. Considering Warlock/Sorcerer Paladin hybrids are still very strong, with their extra spell slots, metamagic, Shield spell and/or invocations, an optimized Cleric/Paladin hybrid is not going to be a problem.

If anything, Paladin/Cleric has an antisynergy, something that's weaker with them combined. You get a new way to spend your Channel Divinity, but you don't get another use of it, which is like if a Wizard leveled up to get a new spell but no new spell slots.

If the player takes just one more cleric level, they'd get access to CD twice per SR (and they'd be wise to - the 6th level ability for nature clerics is great).

Versatility can be its own power; if the aforementioned nature cleric ran into a situation with no undead, plants or animals, they'd have zero use for their CD, whereas Nature's Wrath can be used in every fight.

[strangebloke]

Everything between "The Best" and "The Worst" is balanced. Considering Warlock/Sorcerer Paladin hybrids are still very strong, with their extra spell slots, metamagic, Shield spell and/or invocations, an optimized Cleric/Paladin hybrid is not going to be a problem.

If anything, Paladin/Cleric has an antisynergy, something that's weaker with them combined. You get a new way to spend your Channel Divinity, but you don't get another use of it, which is like if a Wizard leveled up to get a new spell but no new spell slots.

Druid is a way better multiclass overall.

smoky the bear, conquest paladin and moon druid, looking to spread his forests over the plains.

[Man_Over_Game]

Versatility can be its own power; if the aforementioned nature cleric ran into a situation with no undead, plants or animals, they'd have zero use for their CD, whereas Nature's Wrath can be used in every fight.

If I remember correctly, Tasha's adds a way for Clerics to spend their CD on spell slots. Although, after just realizing this, that would be a decent-enough boon for Paladins to be worth it in my book.