Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Form smells a Random Banter #235

[halfeye]

For what it's worth, wikipedia backs Rater.

That's apparently one mathematical study, with no genetic aspect to it. I am highly sceptical. I am strongly in favour of mixed marriages of all sorts, I just don't find this probable.

Also, I don't remember where I read that, but weren't there some contact between Native South Americans and people living in the pacific while the Americas were "undiscovered"?

The pacific is very big. and pretty empty. I am all for it, but very doubtful that it is true, in Britain we had villages where marrying outside the local area was rare until steam trains took off.

We also need people to be very careful not to catch or transmit STIs.

[Anonymouswizard]

Install is underway, if the system boss sheer this the rest is just Drivers and Steam(/GoG). I will need to pick up a drive bay adapter, but just verifying that I can get decent framerates will soon be in my grasp!

Side note: need to buy more USB sticks. At least the machine booted straight from one.

[Fyraltari]

That's apparently one mathematical study, with no genetic aspect to it. I am highly sceptical. I am strongly in favour of mixed marriages of all sorts, I just don't find this probable.

Duly noted.

The pacific is very big. and pretty empty. I am all for it, but very doubtful that it is true, in Britain we had villages where marrying outside the local area was rare until steam trains took off.

It doesn't need to happen a lot. One couple with child is enough to move the most recent common ancestor centuries or millennia depending on the circumstances.

This model took into account that people do not truly mate randomly, but that, particularly in the past, people almost always mated with people who lived nearby, and usually with people who lived in their own town or village. It would have been especially rare to mate with somebody who lived in another country. However, Chang et al. found that a rare person who mates with a person far away will in time connect the worldwide family tree, and that no population is truly completely isolated

We also need people to be very careful not to catch or transmit STIs.

I mean true, but what does it have to do with anything?

[Anonymouswizard]

I got Steam working, but it required messing around with the video drivers and now my screen is stuck at 800x600 I'm giving up for the day, maybe I'll be able to deal with these 'add a resolution' tutorials in the morning.

Like, it's a solvable problem, and I think I know what step I was missing, but when I'm looking up how mounting external storage works just to not be doing this it's time to go to bed

[Beeftank]

I have the better part of a year before the offer expires.

I’m sure you’ve had more than enough people offer you words of encouragement but I’ll still give it a go. If job is truly what you want to do, don’t give up. If the physical stuff is what got you, focus on your training, and go back into the program having given yourself the best possible chance to succeed. If it’s the mental stuff, do what you have to do to get yourself in the right headspace and go for it again. If it doesn’t work out, oh well, at least you won’t be thinking “what if I did something different” down the road.

Hopefully, 5 years from now you will look back at this as a small bump in the road you took to become a successful whatever it is.

[DataNinja]

The universe does not want me to take this exam. Every computer I try has technical difficulties, and the nearby testing center is only open Monday and Wednesday until a little after 12 noon.

Just gonna move on. I have until April to take it again, and moving on will help me keep pace mentally.

Applying for more jobs tonight. I'm about in the mindset of "Any place is better."

There's a few places I'm qualified for, it looks like.

I can commiserate. I was removed from the training program for the DC job due to not being medically cleared for duty after some emotional issues cropped up. I was both devastated (this would have been a huge upward mobility step for me and without it we don't know what we're going to do), but also relieved (all I wanted in life near the end was to be able to go back to my wife, who I wouldn't have been able to see until the new year). I'm scrambling trying to find something else, but seriously considering training myself to try to get back into the program - the way it was written up, I should be able to try again without needing to reapply and jump through the year's worth of hoops, so long as the original offer hasn't passed the expiration date. I'm more than a little traumatized by it but it was a lifechanging opportunity for my family, not to mention me, but I'm significantly more trepidatious about going back through.

On a related note, Rater, I would now change my answer about taking that Captain America serum.

Oh, my sympathies to you both. I know that these were things that you were really excited for, and... it sucks when things happen. Whether in your control or out of them. :(

[Rater202]

So, a few weeks ago I did a wiki-binge on the dragon ball wiki, because that's a thing I do sometimes, and learned that expanded universe materials, mostly Heroes, aha established that pretty much all of the "create an artificial lifeform/body" stuff from across the franchise was compatible with each other and the wheels in my head started turning about the optimal way to the mix things together... Which turned to how I could hypothetically use that for my own benefit

Then a few days ago TVtropes had a new trope article about custom building/breeding/whathaveyou "host" bodies for a disembodied consciousness/spirit, a brain in a jar, an AI, or someone who has a body ut it's failing them(as opposed to just taking one that already existed, or creating a general-purpose host) and now the thoughts won't leave me alone.

Spoiler

Show

My main problem with certain forms of immortality, relating to consciousness uploading or transferal is philosophical in nature. Is the upload really "me" or just a copy? Which gets especially iffy if the original me is still there in my still-living original body... But one of the technologies involved here is able to, among other things, rip souls straight out of the afterlife and put them in new bodies composed of an element that turns negative emotions into raw power. Another can pluck souls out of their existing bodies, which survive the process, and put them in other people which buries the original consciousness of the host body. there's an adjustment period of getting used to the host body and its powers but seemingly no dysphoria.

Two of the technologies are able to create artificial lifeforms that are capable of acting autonomously but don't possess a true consciousness of their own. They just.. do things whiles storing information, and should another consciousness inhabit the body it just becomes the new guy's body.

So my issue just doesn't exist in this case. Make an empty shell with the preferred specs and preprogrammed skills, plop myself into it, and then take the time to get used to the new digs.

With access to the tech, I could just... Make my ideal body using a mixture of machinery so advanced that it has its own cells and DNA and life force and can upgrade itself by cannibalizing other machinery, biomechanics, genetic engineering, cloning, perpetual energy, energy absorption, adaptive computers(by which I mean "computer is seemingly able to spontaneously upgrade both its hardware and software without any apparent need for external resources on an as-needed basis, including twice in quick succession.")

I could even create multiple forms that the body could shift through. Assuming that I was stuck in the Dragon World as opposed to going there, making the body, and then coming back here, making my "base" form small and externally childlike to conserve energy and avoid suspicion* while my "battle form" that's obviously an adult and also built like a tank can be used when trouble can't be dodged or I'd otherwise need to cut loose would not only be totally viable but, depending on what samples I could get my hands on, be trivially easy.

(If I was coming back then obviously something that could easily pass for my orignal body, given enough diet, exercise, and cosmetic surgery, would be preferable.)

And depending on what kind of biological samples I had access to, it'd be trivially easy to make a body that's as close to immortal you could reasonably get.

It's not being a dragon, but...

And then depending on what I can get access to, I might then be able to absorb my orignal, comatose but still living body and integrate it into my new one, which might sidestep the issue of having to get used to the new one while also leaving me not having to figure out what to do with the old body.
If I'd be coming back here, then cells from any given Saiyan, namekian, Frieza race, Majin, and core person and/or demon realm race would work fine. I'd be more or less impossible to harm physically and I'd be guaranteed to survive and come back stronger from anything that did, so...

On the other hand, if I'm stuck in the dragon world I'd want to be as powerful as posisble to begin with. And I kind of like to stick to a theme, so I'd probably go with characters introduced n the Dragon Ball Heroes series so... Ultimate Fin, Fused Sealas, Cumber, Ultimate Kamioren, and the various "Avatars" with the posisble exception of the God of Destruction Avatars, becuase I don't know what their "Ultimate" class is gonna be yet and if it turns out to be Ultra Ego that could bite me in the ass.

Between then I would have access to almost every transformed state in the franchise, Divine Ki, powerful magic, a massive laundry list of mastered techniques, and a perfectly balanced fighting style that contains overwhelming speed, power, and durability, infinite potential to grow... And the ability to travel between universes and timelines at will, giving me options on where to settle down.

Ultimate Fin, Fused Sealas, and Ultimate Kamioren in particular because the first two respectively have the ability to fully copy the abilities and power level of anyone they get the energy or genetic material of and the ability to grow stronger by observing combat data, they both between them have the power and abilities of seventeen of the most notable fighters in the franchise and the third has archived the energy and biological information of a literal planet full of born and bred warriors. Honestly, the Avatars and Cumber are mostly just rounding things out and covering bases. Skills and techniques rather than raw power.

I put way too much frickin thought into these things.

Does this sound good to anyone else? Not necessarily the specific details or the virtual immortality but the "with advanced technology that blurs the lines between machine and fresh to the point that it's legitimately impossible to tell the difference, create a new, idealized body for yourself that is better than your current one and then fully transfer everything that is you—consciousness, memories, emotions, and if it exists the soul into the new body with absolutely no question that it's really you" part.

[halfeye]

I mean true, but what does it have to do with anything?

We were talking about reproduction, and that's one time when STIs can be passed around. STIs can be anything from a mild irritant to lethal, they are never good news.

[Anonymouswizard]

Will in the end I decided just to give up and install Windows. It's less hassle, I'll set up a Linux partition later.

But after a lot of hassle I got to spend my evening posting Devil May Cry 5 with a CPU that's actually fast enough for it. Guess I can finally play all those major games everybody's been talking about these last few years, and hey I won't have to pay as much for most of them.

Besides, the graphics push hard gotten silly. Games on low graphics these days look amazing, I'm not really don't the need for more graphical power (although I'm glad stylisation is back in for some games, note everything benefits from photorealism).


I know that I can't speak for everybody, but I don't associate STIs with reproduction. I tend to society them with encounters where it is pretty explicitly not the goal.

[Form]

Will in the end I decided just to give up and install Windows. It's less hassle, I'll set up a Linux partition later.

But after a lot of hassle I got to spend my evening posting Devil May Cry 5 with a CPU that's actually fast enough for it. Guess I can finally play all those major games everybody's been talking about these last few years, and hey I won't have to pay as much for most of them.

Besides, the graphics push hard gotten silly. Games on low graphics these days look amazing, I'm not really don't the need for more graphical power (although I'm glad stylisation is back in for some games, note everything benefits from photorealism).

There are still plenty of solid, new games that don't require a high end machine as well. Lots of 2d games that look good, but don't tax your GPU that much.

[factotum]

There are still plenty of solid, new games that don't require a high end machine as well. Lots of 2d games that look good, but don't tax your GPU that much.

TBH, with a 1050Ti (which is what he says he has) he ought to be good for 1080p in even some quite recent games. Heck, I've been able to (barely) run Fallout 4 at playable frame rates on a machine with a GT1030, which is way less powerful.

[Anonymouswizard]

There are still plenty of solid, new games that don't require a high end machine as well. Lots of 2d games that look good, but don't tax your GPU that much.

Witch were things I was playing when I knew of them on my laptop (alongside older 3D games). But considering I'm getting good framerates on Devil May Cry 5 (and might try seeing if that holds when I bump up the graphics) I should be golden.

[Rater202]

The Comic says: The magical dimension literally invited the protagonists to come and settle there, some of them are blood descendants of the natives of the magical world, and the only reason they deposed on of the magical worlds monarchs and replaced her—with someone who ha da legitimate claim to the throne mind you—was becuase she was 1: a usurper and 2: went out of her wy to throw bitch fit attempting genocide of the race of our protagonists becuase she didn't like that th eland her stolen kingdom is in wants such people to have a presence within it. Since then, the protagonists have 1: Been doing a good job ruling the country, better than it's been in generations, and 2: Just trying to peacefully coexist with everyone else who lives in the magical kingdom. Despite this, this doesn't stop people from being jackasses for no reason but racism or treating them like evil invaders.

What the so called fans see: "Oh, so you're saying that imperialism is okay and if the privileged elite isn't allowed to take over your country it's racism?" (note, "the privileged elite" are all survivors of multiple attempted genocides, hare almost universally hated in their home reality though no fault of their own, were fricking invited and the ones who actually have started living in the magical world are descended from the magical world's natives.)

There are people who just unilaterally decide they hate something and they'll just twist the facts to support their position and I just fricking hate those people.

[HalfTangible]

Welcome to the internet, where *not* saying something is equal to saying its polar opposite.

[Jasdoif]

Does this sound good to anyone else? Not necessarily the specific details or the virtual immortality but the "with advanced technology that blurs the lines between machine and fresh to the point that it's legitimately impossible to tell the difference, create a new, idealized body for yourself that is better than your current one and then fully transfer everything that is you—consciousness, memories, emotions, and if it exists the soul into the new body with absolutely no question that it's really you" part.

I've discovered this horrifying pattern that any statement that calls for saying "absolutely no question" should absolutely have been questioned; and before that discovery I didn't care enough about the state of my body to have thought replacement was worthwhile. I guess there's a couple years where I'd have liked to not have to take insulin shots because it was inconvenient; but the specific approach you're talking about would be a lot of overhead for that and it'd have made me nervous.

[dafrca]

Welcome to the internet, where *not* saying something is equal to saying its polar opposite.

Oh man have I felt this sting a few times over the last few months.

[dafrca]

Something random: I have been reading my 5e D&D books cover to cover recently. Read the 5e Monster Manual over a couple nights. Interesting how different the books feel when read this way rather than as a reference like a dictionary or encyclopedia.

[Rater202]

I've discovered this horrifying pattern that any statement that calls for saying "absolutely no question" should absolutely have been questioned; and before that discovery I didn't care enough about the state of my body to have thought replacement was worthwhile. I guess there's a couple years where I'd have liked to not have to take insulin shots because it was inconvenient; but the specific approach you're talking about would be a lot of overhead for that and it'd have made me nervous.

...Okay, when I say "absolutely no question' about something I mean...

Like I said, my problem with brain uploading or consciousness transferal is existential-philosophical. "Am I the real Rater, or am I just a duplicate." I don't want to spend eternity having the existential crisis of whether I'm actually immortal or if the real me is long dead and I'm just a dupe.

Especially since even the most "exact and flawless" copy is going to be imperceptibly inferior to the orignal in some capacity, and so with every copy that becomes exponential until eventually, it becomes noticeable, then concerning, and eventually, there's no argument.

This is a specific form of transferal that doesn't have that issue: For the purposes of this scenario, the immortal soul exists and can be transferred between vessels. Transfering the soul into another vessel brings with it the memories, emotions, and consciousness of the "donor" of the soul with it. fundamentally, it is you.

In that scenario, would you(the proverbial "you", anyone who wants to answer) be interested in such a transfer, into a custom-made body.

My convoluted process is more the thoughts that got me on this train of thought.

When I say "no drawbacks" or "there's no question about X," I am not trying to trick people by giving them incomplete infomration. I might forget something, but I'm not going to deliberately propose "trap" hypotheticals when trying to starr a discussion.

[Peelee]

...Okay, when I say "absolutely no question' about something I mean...

Like I said, my problem with brain uploading or consciousness transferal is existential-philosophical. "Am I the real Rater, or am I just a duplicate." I don't want to spend eternity having the existential crisis of whether I'm actually immortal or if the real me is long dead and I'm just a dupe.

Functionally, what's the difference?

[HalfTangible]

Functionally, what's the difference?

It's the difference between you and your twin who never leaves your side. You may be incredibly similar, most of your experiences are the same (probably), and you started from the same place (same DNA and all) but you're not the same person. It's a sort of ship-of-Theseus scenario. At what point are there enough changes to a thing that it's no longer the original?

[Rater202]

Functionally, what's the difference?

Functionally, nothing.

However, I believe I have established that I am of the mind that our memories and identities are the most important part of us. "Rater202" is a fundamentally different being than "a copy of Rater202" because those are different identities and I am anxious by nature and already experience periodic existential dread, as would presumably any accurate copy of myself.

I would not want the added stress of constantly wondering whether or not I was who I thought I was and I believe that I would be a colossal bastard to saddle any potential successor with that baggage in my place.

Beyond that... I believe I have established that I don't want to live forever through any works I might make, or in the memory of the people I leave behind. I want to live forever by not dying.

A process of immortality that involves permanent death, be it either my orignal self being destroyed in the process of making the copy, or the copy being placed in storage and activated upon my death by other means, would defeat the purpose.

[Jasdoif]

In that scenario, would you(the proverbial "you", anyone who wants to answer) be interested in such a transfer, into a custom-made body.
....
When I say "no drawbacks" or "there's no question about X," I am not trying to trick people by giving them incomplete infomration. I might forget something, but I'm not going to deliberately propose "trap" hypotheticals when trying to starr a discussion.

I've been that supremely confident about things myself and still been horribly wrong. I would still second-guess myself in a situation complicated enough to call for saying "absolutely no question" because the topic is too intricate for the answer to be obvious, even if objectively there is absolutely no question...particularly in a scenario like this, which is rather critical to the idea of who I am (by design and intent, obviously) and also seems spectacularly ill-suited to performing as a series of small changes that can be tested at multiple points to maintain confidence.

---

...Okay, when I say "absolutely no question' about something I mean...

Like I said, my problem with brain uploading or consciousness transferal is existential-philosophical. "Am I the real Rater, or am I just a duplicate." I don't want to spend eternity having the existential crisis of whether I'm actually immortal or if the real me is long dead and I'm just a dupe.

Functionally, what's the difference?

It's like backups.

[Form]

Functionally, nothing.

However, I believe I have established that I am of the mind that our memories and identities are the most important part of us. "Rater202" is a fundamentally different being than "a copy of Rater202" because those are different identities and I am anxious by nature and already experience periodic existential dread, as would presumably any accurate copy of myself.

I would not want the added stress of constantly wondering whether or not I was who I thought I was and I believe that I would be a colossal bastard to saddle any potential successor with that baggage in my place.

Beyond that... I believe I have established that I don't want to live forever through any works I might make, or in the memory of the people I leave behind. I want to live forever by not dying.

A process of immortality that involves permanent death, be it either my orignal self being destroyed in the process of making the copy, or the copy being placed in storage and activated upon my death by other means, would defeat the purpose.

Consider the concept of the exocortex: An external, artificial device that gradually takes over tasks from your original brain as it starts to fail. Transfer of consciousness would be slow enough that you wouldn't really notice and the original you 'dies' as the new you is 'born'. I think that would solve the problem.

[Rater202]

Consider the concept of the exocortex: An external, artificial device that gradually takes over tasks from your original brain as it starts to fail. Transfer of consciousness would be slow enough that you wouldn't really notice and the original you 'dies' as the new you is 'born'. I think that would solve the problem.

I can understand why you'd think that, since there's a degree of continuity, but no.

Rather from my perspective, it becomes a guarantee that you're just a copy, albeit a copy that was acting in symbiosis with the original for a time.

[Fyraltari]

The conscious self is an illusion anyway. We're just a collection of mental mecanisms.

[Anonymouswizard]

The conscious self is an illusion anyway. We're just a collection of mental mecanisms.

I'm not 100% certain we aren't just a bunch of physical processes that have deluded themselves into thinking there's a mental part.

[Form]

I can understand why you'd think that, since there's a degree of continuity, but no.

Rather from my perspective, it becomes a guarantee that you're just a copy, albeit a copy that was acting in symbiosis with the original for a time.

Does it matter if you don't notice?

Your brain is not the same as it was when you were 5, or 10 or 15. Would you say you have died between now and then? Suppose that instead of an exocortex gradually taking over brain functions you'd have a brain that constantly regenerates itself, continually replacing old brain cells with new ones. Would you accept that as a solution?

[Rater202]

The conscious self is an illusion anyway. We're just a collection of mental mecanisms.

...if consciousness is merely an illusion then how are any of us having this conversation right now?

No, seriously. Thought and perception are both a function of a conscious mind. Without consciousness, we would be automatons performing instinctive actions by rote with no understanding of what we were doing nor any real ability to know what stimuli are. No ability to deviate from the predetermined pattern.

The philosophical conceit that consciousness is an illusion is inherently self-contradictory: Someone must possess a consciousness before they can perceive anything, and illusion is by definition the act of fooling perception. No consciousness, no perception. No perception, no illusion.

Does it matter if you don't notice?

Your brain is not the same as it was when you were 5, or 10 or 15. Would you say you have died between now and then? Suppose that instead of an exocortex gradually taking over brain functions you'd have a brain that constantly regenerates itself, continually replacing old brain cells with new ones. Would you accept that as a solution?

Strictly speaking, we do that now, just not very efficiently.

Yes, my brain is structurally different now than it was when I was a child, but that is an internal process with strict continuity of self.

While there's a degree of continuity in what you suggest, the "copy" is created prior to the destruction of the conscious mind. It exists and grows in parrel to the deterioration of the orignal entity.

This coexistence breaks continuity of self even though continuity of memory is retained. The exocortex is thus a distinct indvidiual, not a continuation.

The ability to perfectly regenerate my neural connections to retain full memory and functionality, however, would be an internal process, there is no duplicate of myself developing in parallel, it would just be me.

[Lord Raziere]

...if consciousness is merely an illusion then how are any of us having this conversation right now?

No, seriously. Thought and perception are both a function of a conscious mind. Without consciousness, we would be automatons performing instinctive actions by rote with no understanding of what we were doing nor any real ability to know what stimuli are. No ability to deviate from the predetermined pattern.

The philosophical conceit that consciousness is an illusion is inherently self-contradictory: Someone must possess a consciousness before they can perceive anything, and illusion is by definition the act of fooling perception. No consciousness, no perception. No perception, no illusion.

Yeah, I just ignore any philosophical conundrums about this sort thing and just say that I'm conscious. its one of "gaze into the abyss and the abyss gazes into you" things, all it leads to is needless depression. I'm conscious, free will exists, hope is not dead, don't ask questions that lead to questioning the foundations of my own being, nothing good comes of it.

[Fyraltari]

...if consciousness is merely an illusion then how are any of us having this conversation right now?

Consciousness isn't, the self is.

Also, Imma drop this.