Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Form smells a Random Banter #235

[Lord Raziere]

And that would be fair... If it wasn't specifically complaints about Bardock's character that I've been seeing regarding how Bardock is "worse" now, rather than story quality.

I've seen people even say that Dragon Ball Minus is a bad story because it "retcons" Bardock

I guess some people liked the fact that there was no redeeming qualities to a protagonists father then. or that Bardock was so alien he didn't have any traits we'd considered humanly redeemable. perhaps they don't even know that Z movies aren't canon, a lot of this knowledge of what is or isn't canon only comes from going beyond the surface of whatever iceberg the show is sitting on.

[Anonymouswizard]

Getting ready for NaNoWriMo, resurrecting an old idea. Going for an 'end of Steampunk' setting, where technology has started to outpace the power steam can provide and idealism is threatened by conspiracy...

Hoping I can spin this to novel length, but if not I'll return to my Alchemy stuff soon.

[Bartmanhomer]

Getting ready for NaNoWriMo, resurrecting an old idea. Going for an 'end of Steampunk' setting, where technology has started to outpace the power steam can provide and idealism is threatened by conspiracy...

Hoping I can spin this to novel length, but if not I'll return to my Alchemy stuff soon.

Cool. I want to read your story.

[Anonymouswizard]

Cool. I want to read your story.

Wait until I've written it, it might come out terrible. But I've had the broad idea for years, just never quite felt like I got the right mix of whimsy , pulp, and drama before.

Plus I still need a name for my main character. Probably Baron something or other.

[Bartmanhomer]

Wait until I've written it, it might come out terrible. But I've had the broad idea for years, just never quite felt like I got the right mix of whimsy , pulp, and drama before.

Plus I still need a name for my main character. Probably Baron something or other.

I'm sure your story isn't that terrible. I'll be looking forward to It.

[LaZodiac]

And that would be fair... If it wasn't specifically complaints about Bardock's character that I've been seeing regarding how Bardock is "worse" now, rather than story quality.

I've seen people even say that Dragon Ball Minus is a bad story because it "retcons" Bardock

I mean Dragon Ball Minus is a bad story but not for that reason.

Getting ready for NaNoWriMo, resurrecting an old idea. Going for an 'end of Steampunk' setting, where technology has started to outpace the power steam can provide and idealism is threatened by conspiracy...

Hoping I can spin this to novel length, but if not I'll return to my Alchemy stuff soon.

I completely forgot Nanowrimo was soon! I've been rewriting the book I did for my first one to bring it up to code and give myself some easy good good brain chemicals, so I likely won't be participating, but I could, maybe, if I wanted.

[Rater202]

I mean Dragon Ball Minus is a bad story but not for that reason.

The other complaints I mostly see about it are about Gine.

And not even her role in the manga, but what Toriyama said about her in an interview.

"Soldier chose to retire after her first term was up becuase she didn't think a life as a career soldier was the right fit for her, becomes a butcher at an industrial meat processing plant" is not the same as "women realizes that she's bad at fighting so she goes home to stay in the kitchen."

Yeah, Toriyama doesn't right women all that well. But harping on every woman who used to be a fighter but isn't a fighter anymore...

I mean, Buma really only dropped out of the field in Buu Saga. She was active in the 'adventuring" aspect of the series all throughout and only stopped being present for fight scenes becuase it got to the point where she couldn't consistently be in the presence of the fight, realistically.

Chichi retired from fighting... After seeing the person she'd been obsessively crushing on the last six years get the crap beat out of him and have a hole blasted clean through his chest., only surviving becuase the blast miraculously missed all of his internal organs. And even then, once her oldest son was on a fast track to becoming a wealthy scholar, she trained her youngest son in martial arts herself becuase he wanted to learn, so...

Android 18... Wasn't a fighter in the first place. She was a teenager who was given godlike power and virtual immortality by a mad man and went around using it for fun before she got scared straight by being vored by a bug man. And she apparently trains in martial arts as a hobby and/or to win prize money despite not being an active fighter

Videl... Okay yeah, Videl retiring from fighting is kind of weird, but it should be noted that for most of Dragon Ball Super she's either pregnant or the mother of an infant that can fly, use advanced ki control, and enhance her strength to superhuman levels by instinct so fighting was either unreasonable dangerous or something she wouldn't have time for. The next movie seems to be time-skipping to The End of Z era so maybe Videl goes back to fighting when Pan is old enough to not accidentally destroy the house while having a tantrum.

More female fighters in the franchise would be nice—I'd really like to see more of how Kale develops as a character and how she grows into her power—but for all of the ones who retired it made sense for them to retire.

[LaZodiac]

My issues with it was the very strange traveling back in time to fight Frieza's ancestor and set up the legend of the Legendary Super Saiyen thing, which is like... the meat of it? At least in the manga anyway.

[Lord Raziere]

My issues with it was the very strange traveling back in time to fight Frieza's ancestor and set up the legend of the Legendary Super Saiyen thing, which is like... the meat of it? At least in the manga anyway.

Wait what?

Did.....Dragonball Minus do that too? *checks* no, your confusing Minus with Episode of Bardock

Thats an Episode of Bardock thing, way before DB Super. episode of Bardock isn't considered canon, its just a what if story.

[LaZodiac]

Wait what?

Did.....Dragonball Minus do that too? *checks* no, your confusing Minus with Episode of Bardock

Thats an Episode of Bardock thing, way before DB Super. episode of Bardock isn't considered canon, its just a what if story.

I thought they were connected though? Huh, never mind then.

[Anonymouswizard]

I completely forgot Nanowrimo was soon! I've been rewriting the book I did for my first one to bring it up to code and give myself some easy good good brain chemicals, so I likely won't be participating, but I could, maybe, if I wanted.

Do it. Sell it. This forum will one again give you it's monies.

Meanwhile I still have to finish a book. I'm thinking of doing a Foundation-style short story collection next year.

[Lord Raziere]

I thought they were connected though? Huh, never mind then.

Explanation time:
well the original movie, Bardock Father of Goku is connected.

Episode of Bardock is set when Bardock wakes up in the past after Freeza kills him with the death ball. there is no explanation for how or why he is back in time. He just is, he encounters ancient saiyans, kills Freeza's ancestor and goes Super saiyan, because DBZ marketing. there is a reason why TFS just made it a story Goku decides to tell Gohan before bedtime when abridging it.

none of which has anything to do with Dragonball Minus. Which is a separate story, a different version of the events that led to Vegeta being blown up and bardock sending Goku to Earth. A canonical version of it. those two movies above? Not canon, never were. DB Minus was literally written just to canonize Bardock as an actual character even if technically his story isn't exactly the same (for one the non-canon Bardock has future vision powers, canon Bardock does not). because uuuum.....DB Super marketing.

[Rater202]

My issues with it was the very strange traveling back in time to fight Frieza's ancestor and set up the legend of the Legendary Super Saiyen thing, which is like... the meat of it? At least in the manga anyway.

What Raz said. That's a non-canon what-if story.

and the only good thing to come of that was TFS lampooning it.

According to Interviews, and if you accept things like Xenoverse, Legends, and Heroes as supplemental sources, the canonical origin of the Super Saiyan Legend was a Saiyan named Yamoshi.

This is a composite based on multiple sources.

The Ancient Saiyans(who have a ki that feels different from modern ones and black tails instead of brown) were split into two factions, referred to as the "Evil Saiyans" who were malevolent and had the power to channel their malice into energy which let them do things like create giants hands or infect people driving them into berserk rages and the benevolent Saiyans.

Yamoshi was the leader of the good Saiyans, who were losing the fight, and transformed into a Super Saiyan during the final battle for the fate of Planet Sadala, the orignal homeworld of the Saiyan race.

He lost, and Sadala was destroyed as collateral damage with the surviving Saiyans, dominated by the evil Saiyan faction, settled on Planet Plant which eventually became Planet Vegeta.

Over the next thousand years the story was garbled until eventually, all that was left were tales of a powerful warrior who appeared a thousand year ago, undefeatable by anyone else, able to surpass barriers insurmountable to other warriors, but who lost control of his power and explode, taking the orignal Saiyan homeworld with him.

...Though, the Namekians had some, admittedly sparse, information about Super Saiyans in their own book of Legends.

Yamoshi died in the battle but persisted in the living world as an invisible spirit who searched the universe for six pure-hearted Saiyans to take up his crusade, which eventually resulted in 1: Beeru' Oracle telling him to go to Earth to fight a "Super Saiyan God" and a story about a ritual of Six Pure HEarted Saiyans combining their spirits to elevate one of their number to the divinity that was detailed to the heroes by Shenron when they wished for an answer to what this whole "Sper Saiyan God" thing was about.

Yamoshi's spirit may have been present during the ritual to turn Goku into a Super Saiyan God, it's ambiguous.

However: InThe Tournament of Power Arc, Kale's berserk state, inspired by Broly's "Legendary" from the Z-Movies, is, once mastered, referred to by Goku and Vegeta as the "True" Legendary Super Saiyan(thoug officially the state is just Kale's version of Super Saiyan 2) and in Dragon Ball Super: Broly, it's stated that it's been a thousand years sinc a Saiyan with mutations like Broly's, which eventually escalate to the point that he's identity to Kale's initial berserk form and Broly's non-canonical Z counterpart, which together strongly suggest that Yamaoshi's Super Saiyan Form was the "Legendary" variant rather than the form that is now commonly called Super Saiyan.

However, it's also suggested that the Ancient Saiyans were commonly able to become Super Saiyans in some side materials. Cumber, an Evil Ancient Saiyan who appears in Heroes, is able to casually assume not only all three Super Saiyan Forms, but a "Super Saiyan 3 Full Power" form that is presented in a way that makes it clear that if there wasn't already a Super Saiyan 4 that this would be Super Saiyan 4.

Legends says that the "good" faction of Saiyans were called Super Saiyan Gods, and in some versions of the Heroes Story Line Cumber freaks out upon seeing "A Saiyan with Red Hair"(referring to the Super Saiyan God form) suggesting that the form existed before the ritual was used to empower Goku, which further muddies the issue.

Dragon Ball Minus was a bonus chapter added to Jacco The Galactic Patrolmen when it was bundled up for th collected edition, showing Toriyama's canonical take on how Goku was sent to Earth: Bardock got done committing genocide for a living and on his way home got a call saying that Frieza had cancled all missions and was giving orders for all Saiyans to return to Planet Vegeta for an announcement.

Bardock got suspicious, so he went to visit his wife Gine at the meat dispensary where she worked as a butcher, told her his suspicions, and then they stole a battle pod, grabbed their youngest son out of his gestation tank(Saiyans are kept in tubes until they're old enough to fend for themselves for... Some reason) and sent home to earth saying that if they were wrong they'd come and get him.

Knowing that their elder son Raditz would be safe becuase he was partnered with Vegeta, who apparently had a reputation for ignoring retreat orders, they contacted him and told him that his brother had been sent to a backwater planet as a child invader.

and then Goku hit his head and forgot all about this(Saiyan children apparently have very good memories. Reminder: Raditz was surprised that Goku didn't remember things from when he was a literal toddler.)

[Bartmanhomer]

Hello everyone. I just thought of something which annoys me. If a man likes the color pink then that means you're gay. Like what? Seriously not all men who like the color pink are gay. Some straight men like the color pink. I wish people need to stop over-generalizing and stereotyping people's sexual orientation based on color.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hello everyone. I just thought of something which annoys me. If a man likes the color pink then that means you're gay. Like what? Seriously not all men who like the color pink are gay. Some straight men like the color pink. I wish people need to stop over-generalizing and stereotyping people's sexual orientation based on color.

What's this about? Everybody knows that pink has been the manliest of man colours since medieval times. But yeah, I get your point.

[Fyraltari]

Hello everyone. I just thought of something which annoys me. If a man likes the color pink then that means you're gay. Like what? Seriously not all men who like the color pink are gay. Some straight men like the color pink. I wish people need to stop over-generalizing and stereotyping people's sexual orientation based on color.

Did something happen ot did you make yourself angry on your own?

[Bartmanhomer]

What's this about? Everybody knows that pink has been the manliest of man colours since medieval times. But yeah, I get your point.

Some people want to stereotype people sexual orientation to a color that they associated with.

Did something happen ot did you make yourself angry on your own?

You mean annoyed on my own.

[Peelee]

Some people want to stereotype people sexual orientation to a color that they associated with.

Apropos of nothing, but if you're still relying on Grammarly, it's really not working.

[Bartmanhomer]

Apropos of nothing, but if you're still relying on Grammarly, it's really not working.

I'm not using it anymore.

[Anonymouswizard]

Some people want to stereotype people sexual orientation to a color that they associated with.

Eh, and people buy little boys dolls all the time. Stereotypes are weird.

Like, I'm not sure that I know any gay men who particularly like pink. Not really any women either (purple tends to be more popular among all genders IME).But it basically goes 'pink is for girls, a man who likes girl things isn't really a man, men like women, therefore a man who likes pink is gay'. Which is silly, partially because hetereonormativity is stupid, but mostly because traditionally pink was for boys and blue was for girls.

Seriously, it's the reason blue is so common among Disney princesses. I think Aurora even spent the majority of the film in blue, and it's in Cinderella's iconic dress.

[Bartmanhomer]

Eh, and people buy little boys dolls all the time. Stereotypes are weird.

Like, I'm not sure that I know any gay men who particularly like pink. Not really any women either (purple tends to be more popular among all genders IME).But it basically goes 'pink is for girls, a man who likes girl things isn't really a man, men like women, therefore a man who likes pink is gay'. Which is silly, partially because hetereonormativity is stupid, but mostly because traditionally pink was for boys and blue was for girls.

Seriously, it's the reason blue is so common among Disney princesses. I think Aurora even spent the majority of the film in blue, and it's in Cinderella's iconic dress.

Yes, I agree with you.

[DataNinja]

Not really any women either (purple tends to be more popular among all genders IME).

Pink for me! I am very stereotypical. It should be obvious, since I've shared pics of my hair, here, after all.

[Peelee]

I have a pink and purple hanbok. Looks damned good, I gotta say.

[Deth Muncher]

It has been...almost 100 Random Banters since I had the chance to start one, and it's probably been about that long since I've had a chance to pop in on the forum. Glad to see everything is still going and everyone's still having fun.

Love and peace to you, ya nerds.

[LaZodiac]

Do it. Sell it. This forum will one again give you it's monies.

Meanwhile I still have to finish a book. I'm thinking of doing a Foundation-style short story collection next year.

While I'd love to, even when I do finish this book I don't think it's the appropriate time for this book to come out (the one danger of having many stories in mind and writing them often is that you'll often finish writing something that can't be published yet. It's still in Cursed World's setting, but is set in the past and thus COULD come out, but I don't think it'd work if it came out after book one, is all).

Ooh, good luck!

Explanation time:
well the original movie, Bardock Father of Goku is connected.

Episode of Bardock is set when Bardock wakes up in the past after Freeza kills him with the death ball. there is no explanation for how or why he is back in time. He just is, he encounters ancient saiyans, kills Freeza's ancestor and goes Super saiyan, because DBZ marketing. there is a reason why TFS just made it a story Goku decides to tell Gohan before bedtime when abridging it.

none of which has anything to do with Dragonball Minus. Which is a separate story, a different version of the events that led to Vegeta being blown up and bardock sending Goku to Earth. A canonical version of it. those two movies above? Not canon, never were. DB Minus was literally written just to canonize Bardock as an actual character even if technically his story isn't exactly the same (for one the non-canon Bardock has future vision powers, canon Bardock does not). because uuuum.....DB Super marketing.

What really ****s with all of this is that Dragonball Z Kai added the Bardock movie ending to its opening.

[Rater202]

What really ****s with all of this is that Dragonball Z Kai added the Bardock movie ending to its opening.

They also included a lot of filler after saying they were cutting out all of the filler, so...

Honestly what really ****s with things is the Garlic Junior arc from the orignal airing of the anime.

It gives the impression that the movies are part of continuity when they're not. If it was just Garlic Junior that would be one thing, his movie can slide into the timeline if you ignore that Krillin would have known who Gohan was when Goku brought him to meet the others, but the presence of Icarus/Higher Dragon implies that Tree of Might happened and Tree of might doesn't fit into the continuity at any point.

...Which kind of sucks, because both of those movies have interesting concepts and the filer arc expands on Garlic in an interesting way... /it just kind of ruins things. Could ahve done it as a movie and it would ahve been fine, but...

At least it's not like the Naruto filler arcs which introduce things only to be immediately contradicted by the manga or create plot holes that don't exist in the source material.

Or Bleach Filler where they just randomly stop in the middle of a major arc to tell a completly unrelated story always at a cliffhanger god damn it!

I hope the Boruto model of filler becomes industry standard: The manga author/IP holder supervises the anime writing staff to make sure they don't do anything canon breaking and filler is used to tell semi-canonical stories that expand on the characterization of side characters who the main story doesn't have time to focus on or flesh out things that, looking back, needed more fleshing out.

[Lord Raziere]

What really ****s with all of this is that Dragonball Z Kai added the Bardock movie ending to its opening.

It did? Okay. *checks*

Okay, apparently, technically old Bardock was canon from 2009 for four years, and apparently Toriyama included a panel of old Bardock in the manga at some point because he liked him so much. But yeah, DBZ Kai is pre-Minus.

So for a time, that was true. but then Minus happened and retconned that.

But either way, Episode of Bardock isn't canon.

[Rater202]

You ever have a moment where you see a video about an show you used to watch and then the video discussion just completly changes your view on it?

a while back I was goofing around and saw a 40-minute video talking about quantifying the "power" of Dale Gribble from King of the Hill and I clicked on it because I had nothing better to do...

The video is mostly a joke: The guy who made it is taking the "talk about King of the Hill as if it was an anime" meme and running with it for the sake of satire and a lot of it as taking one-off jokes or Dale's own nonsense at face value...

But the video does cite multiple instances of Dale demonstrating feats of strength, durability, recovery, and pain tolerance across every season of the show and now I can't help but see "Dale is superhuman but hides it due to laziness and paranoia," albeit a much more subdued version than what's proposed in the video, as being canon.

[enderlord99]

You ever have a moment where you see a video about an show you used to watch and then the video discussion just completly changes your view on it?

a while back I was goofing around and saw a 40-minute video talking about quantifying the "power" of Dale Gribble from King of the Hill and I clicked on it because I had nothing better to do...

The video is mostly a joke: The guy who made it is taking the "talk about King of the Hill as if it was an anime" meme and running with it for the sake of satire and a lot of it as taking one-off jokes or Dale's own nonsense at face value...

But the video does cite multiple instances of Dale demonstrating feats of strength, durability, recovery, and pain tolerance across every season of the show and now I can't help but see "Dale is superhuman but hides it due to laziness and paranoia," albeit a much more subdued version than what's proposed in the video, as being canon.

It is an anime, just one that happens to be produced in America rather than Japan. Medium is not genre; genre is not medium.

...

POCKET SAND!

[Rater202]

Medium is not genre; genre is not medium.

While this is normally true, the term "anime" is used in the west to refer nigh exclusively to Japanese animation, and certain art styles and tropes are very heavily present in anime but not so much in western works, to the point that western works that include those elements are said to be anime-inspired.