Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Form smells a Random Banter #235

[Jasdoif]

I've started to wonder if the 3.X advice that XP costs hurt more than GP costs is actually true. As you say, if you spend XP you'll essentially get more to 'catch you up'. Meanwhile spending gold on consumables doesn't make the rules tell the GM to give you more to catch you up (although I believe there is some extra in standard generated treasure for consumables).

XP costs do hurt more than GP costs. You will catch up on most of the XP, eventually; but you'll be doing the catching up when you're a level behind the rest of your party (and thus getting around a third more XP on the same encounters), and being behind on your class abilities and hit points (and to a lesser extent a possible point in base saves/attack/skills) can certainly hurt. Meanwhile, paying for stuff is basically all gold does; the non-literal price of buying things with gold is the opportunity cost of not being able to use the same gold to buy something else.

Also, the value of treasure by level and level-appropriate gear by level scale exponentially, so player wealth does have self-correction similar to player XP. You can also spend all your gold on one thing if you really want to; whereas the rule that you can't spend enough XP to lose a level forms the main reason of using XP costs in the first place, in that it's something you can't do continuously even if you wanted to. Admittedly, a dedicated "use it or lose it" resource that refreshes when you gain a level could probably have done that better (or at least less messily at the high level); but given how long it took to come up with ways to share XP costs for crafting, I don't think this was a well-recognized scenario when "hey, what if we let players craft their own magic items for less gold, and charged them XP to keep them from becoming gold factories" first came up in a designer's head.

[Peelee]

Apparently for every one person in my class, there were eighteen rejections. And it seems to be a fantastic time to be getting in, as far as potential upward mobility goes.

[Rater202]

Apparently for every one person in my class, there were eighteen rejections. And it seems to be a fantastic time to be getting in, as far as potential upward mobility goes.

Congratulations, Future Head of whatever the Hell it is your doing now.

[Peelee]

Congratulations, Future Head of whatever the Hell it is your doing now.

Thanks! If by some slim chance I do get to head up the department, that would be one hell of a feather in my cap.

[factotum]

One thing I'm not clear on, Peelee--will you be able to live in Birmingham and do this job once you've done all the training? Or is this effectively a permanent move to the Frozen North?

[Peelee]

One thing I'm not clear on, Peelee--will you be able to live in Birmingham and do this job once you've done all the training? Or is this effectively a permanent move to the Frozen North?

I suppose I could live in Birmingham but the commute would be hell. The job is very much D.C. based. Though one or two of the specialist routes does have a good amount of travel, but I would have no control over where that travel is to, or how long the stays would be.

[factotum]

That's a darn shame, it makes that massive building thingy you did a bit of a waste...

[Fyraltari]

That's a darn shame, it makes that massive building thingy you did a bit of a waste...

Don't worry, Peelee is just not allowed to tell us that the alphabet has alien teleportation devices in their basement.

[Anonymouswizard]

Don't worry, Peelee is just not allowed to tell us that the alphabet has alien teleportation devices in their basement.

Yes, and they'll transport his masterpiece once they've translated the controls.

[Peelee]

That's a darn shame, it makes that massive building thingy you did a bit of a waste...

Not really. House is fully paid off, and we don't plan on selling. My wife and I have worked out the logistics for the next year or so. We did know the deal before we bought all the stuff, after all.

[Form]

Thanks! If by some slim chance I do get to head up the department, that would be one hell of a feather in my cap.

But you're already a moderator on the Giant in the Playground forums! How much more authority could you possibly want?!

[Bartmanhomer]

But you're already a moderator on the Giant in the Playground forums! How much more authority could you possibly want?!

I think Peelee wants Roland's job as the administrator and plans on world domination.

[Rater202]

But you're already a moderator on the Giant in the Playground forums! How much more authority could you possibly want?!

Don't you remember the song? Everybody wants to rule the world.

[Fyraltari]

Don't you remember the song? Everybody wants to rule the world.

Urrgh, that's like, work and responsability, pass.

[HalfTangible]

Don't you remember the song? Everybody wants to rule the world.

The one song I can recall about ruling the world laments that the person ever did it.

Urrgh, that's like, work and responsability, pass.

I mean, work and responsibility gives a person purpose.

[Rater202]

I mean, work and responsibility gives a person purpose.

That the Cult of Work talking.

Work in and of itself has no value, it's the rewards of work and responsibility that people want. Money, goods, personal fulfillment.

It's not work that people want or need. It's feeling productive. You could live on an island with all of your needs met for your entire life and be unhappy. A job won't make you happy, unless it's work you find meaningful, but if sitting around carving things out of driftwood becuase you like whittling makes you feel productive then that's all you need

[Mystic Muse]

The one song I can recall about ruling the world laments that the person ever did it.

Viva La Vida by Coldplay?

[Peelee]

That the Cult of Work talking.

Work in and of itself has no value, it's the rewards of work and responsibility that people want. Money, goods, personal fulfillment.

It's not work that people want or need. It's feeling productive. You could live on an island with all of your needs met for your entire life and be unhappy. A job won't make you happy, unless it's work you find meaningful, but if sitting around carving things out of driftwood becuase you like whittling makes you feel productive then that's all you need

That's like saying it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end. Sure, that's technically correct, but the two are pretty intrinsically linked.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, work and responsibility gives a person purpose.

Purpose is overrated.

[HalfTangible]

That the Cult of Work talking.

Work in and of itself has no value, it's the rewards of work and responsibility that people want. Money, goods, personal fulfillment.

It's not work that people want or need. It's feeling productive. You could live on an island with all of your needs met for your entire life and be unhappy. A job won't make you happy, unless it's work you find meaningful, but if sitting around carving things out of driftwood becuase you like whittling makes you feel productive then that's all you need

...
"It's not work that people want or need"
Very next sentence: "It's feeling productive"

[HalfTangible]

Viva La Vida by Coldplay?

Yes.

Though initially I thought you meant Livin' la Vida Loca by Ricky Martin.

[Rater202]

That's like saying it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end. Sure, that's technically correct, but the two are pretty intrincisally linked.

...
"It's not work that people want or need"
Very next sentence: "It's feeling productive"

"Work" in the context of "work is what gives you purpose" is usually meant as the idea of working continuously with no true end goal. The idea that work in and of itself is what is important.

"Productivity" is not "work." I don't do any "work" to read a book, and yet spending time reading to me feels like I have done something productive. My writing is not "work," the way it's being used in the sense of the phrase "work gives you purpose." It is something I put effort into, yes, but the people who mostly propagate the idea that "work gives you purpose" woulnd't consider it to be work. And yet, i feel like I've done something productive when I finish writing a chapter for one of my stories.

[Peelee]

"Work" in the context of "work is what gives you purpose" is usually meant as the idea of working continuously with no true end goal. The idea that work in and of itself is what is important.

I disagree.

[Tvtyrant]

I disagree.

I somewhat agree with Rater here. Assuming by "work" we mean "labor for sake of material gain" such as a job or making something for sale, there's no inherit personal benefit for the laborer other then said material gain. Painting for its own sake is as beneficial as painting for market.

[Peelee]

I somewhat agree with Rater here. Assuming by "work" we mean "labor for sake of material gain" such as a job or making something for sale, there's no inherit personal benefit for the laborer other then said material gain. Painting for its own sake is as beneficial as painting for market.

"Work gives you purpose" is clearly meant to be both the act and the result. If one's work was moving a box back and forth between two points, nobody would ever say that gives purpose, because that is lacking any benefit.

[Rater202]

I somewhat agree with Rater here. Assuming by "work" we mean "labor for sake of material gain" such as a job or making something for sale, there's no inherit personal benefit for the laborer other then said material gain. Painting for its own sake is as beneficial as painting for market.

Kind of. That's part of it.

The "Cult of Work" philosophy boils down to "working hard is the only thing you need to feel fulfilled, happy, and be successful."

The truth is, working hard only makes you feel successful, productive, fulfilled, or happy when you see tangible benefits from the fruits of your labor. Conversely, there are things that can make you happy, fulfilled, or products that do not require much in the way of effort, at least not the kind of effort that would be considered "work," at all.

It can tie into working for material gain, but it doesn't have to.

It's trying to convince you that performing labor is the same as benefitting from the fruits of labor.

[Tvtyrant]

"Work gives you purpose" is clearly meant to be both the act and the result. If one's work was moving a box back and forth between two points, nobody would ever say that gives purpose, because that is lacking any benefit.

I disagree with that assessment. There was a large cultural movement to make labor a source of identity in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, distinct from the merits of that work. Factory work was tedious and alienating, and cultural mores justifying this were developed that argued that just working hard was itself a moral virtue.

Labor's Lost Love is a good book on the subject, but the saying isn't necessarily from a modern "enjoy your work" approach.

Edit: I also don't think this is an out of date critique. Hustle culture is a real thing, where being overworked is celebrated and work-life boundaries are depicted as lazy.

[Rater202]

I disagree with that assessment. There was a large cultural movement to make labor a source of identity in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, distinct from the merits of that work. Factory work was tedious and alienating, and cultural mores justifying this were developed that argued that just working hard was itself a moral virtue.

Labor's Lost Love is a good book on the subject, but the saying isn't necessarily from a modern "enjoy your work" approach.

Yes, this, exactly this.

If you enjoy your work tha'ts fine. Good for you(no sarcasm, if you have a job you love then that's great) but the idea that work is what gives you purpose was initially propagated to convince people that if they weren't happy working, it was there own fault and they should suck it up and keep working.

Of course, it's not limited to strict economic work anymore. When I was in college they tried to convince us that we had to spend four hours studying for every hour in class if we wanted to do college right. At 12 hours a week in class that becomes a 60-hour "workweek."

My experience may be anecdotal... But the only classes that required half that much effort were the ones that we being run unfairly or incompetantly.

[Peelee]

Edit: I also don't think this is an out of date critique. Hustle culture is a real thing, where being overworked is celebrated and work-life boundaries are depicted as lazy.

This is where the real contention is, in going to guess. I totally agree it is out of date and that culturally we are shifting away from this view.

[Tvtyrant]

This is where the real contention is, in going to guess. I totally agree it is out of date and that culturally we are shifting away from this view.

Maybe in a general sense we are moving away, but the devil is in the details. I work in financial advising and you get the atta boys for staying extra free hours everyday, and the silent treatment if you don't.

There is also a whole bevy of articles above Hustle and Grind culture in the US, where being available to work at any time is seen as necessary for advancement.