Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, Form smells a Random Banter #235

[Mystic Muse]

The problem with Warhammer is that its world is so cynical and GRIMDARK that in all likelihood they did try the "better" way and it ended worse. (quick and dirty example: "why use lobotomized humans as computers when you could just make AI?" "Every AI that isn't a Tau drone inevitably goes insane and tries to destroy all life in the universe. Usually within minutes.") The god of hope is also the god of trickery, betrayal, and Fate, after all.

yeah, the Warhammer setting has a looot of problems even before someone makes tge mistake of trying to tell a story in it.

'course, then you have **** like the Grey Knights using SoB blood to make holy sigils on their armor which is stupid on a number of levels... Or Inquisitor Kryptman, a guy whose plan to stop the Tyranids was so morally bankrupt that he was banished FROM THE INQUISITION.

"No, you don't understand. He was banished. From the INQUISITION. For BEING TOO CRUEL. " is still one of my favorite Text to Speech lines.

[Fyraltari]

Dick Wolf

That cannot be his real name. No way.

This is just a random thing.

A lot of times, Warhammer writing is not great,

Aye.

but I really like this response to one of my least favorite excuses.

"There was no other way!"

"No? What other ways did you try?"

Yeah, that's a good one. People who go "that's the only way" generally don't want to consider the other ways.

The problem with Warhammer is that its world is so cynical and GRIMDARK that in all likelihood they did try the "better" way and it ended worse.

That's the thing, the Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40, 000 universes aren't supposed to be cynical but satyrical.

The whole joke is that this bunch of space/magic fascists are doing everything in the most needlessly brutal and inefficient way because they're ****ing brainwashed authoritarian drones whose critical thinking skills, sense of humor or perspective and basic compassion had been hammered out (possibly literally) a long time ago. They're not right, they're deluded monsters. It's like Juge Dredd it's a parody of dictatorships.

At least that was the original intent. But a lot of that has vanished over the years replaced with "no the Space Marines are heroes actually" and all the other "they have to be like this or Chaos wins" crap to the point we now have sympathetic witchhunter/inquisitor/commissar characters. You know, the people whose job it is to kill people who get the idea they have rights. This is probably because it's easier to sell whole boxsets and books to people if the characters they're supposed to play as/indentify with have some redeeming qualities rather than being evil caricatures.

(quick and dirty example: "why use lobotomized humans as computers when you could just make AI?" "Every AI that isn't a Tau drone inevitably goes insane and tries to destroy all life in the universe. Usually within minutes.")

"Because the creators read Dune. And also because if the humans had widespread automation, they wouldn't suffer as much.

course, then you have **** like the Grey Knights using SoB blood to make holy sigils on their armor which is stupid on a number of levels... Or Inquisitor Kryptman, a guy whose plan to stop the Tyranids was so morally bankrupt that he was banished FROM THE INQUISITION.

No see, that's actually good. Well except the bit where Kryptmann gets punished for his abhorrent crime. This kind of balls-to-the-wall insanity is what the Imperium is about. They don't care about their allies or their subjects in the slightest and will gleefully sacrifice them all if they believe it's slightly more convienient than not.
Because the Imperium is not, has never been and will never be the Good Guys.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is just a random thing.

A lot of times, Warhammer writing is not great, but I really like this response to one of my least favorite excuses.

"There was no other way!"

"No? What other ways did you try?"

Hehe.

The problem with Warhammer is that its world is so cynical and GRIMDARK that in all likelihood they did try the "better" way and it ended worse. (quick and dirty example: "why use lobotomized humans as computers when you could just make AI?" "Every AI that isn't a Tau drone inevitably goes insane and tries to destroy all life in the universe. Usually within minutes.") The god of hope is also the god of trickery, betrayal, and Fate, after all.

To be fair, Warhammer was a lot less bleak than 40k is. Yes, the world is on track to become literal hell if it doesn't just end, and a bunch of dickbags are in charge, but unlike the Imperium there is legitimate progression and development in the Empire (and presumably other states that aren't Bretonnia). Plus the forces of Law are much more clearly active, for better or for worse.

Also, they're not settings to be taken seriously. They not only satirical, they're comedic (and in my view quite obviously so). These extends even past the Greenskins, it's just a very dark sense of humour.

'course, then you have **** like the Grey Knights using SoB blood to make holy sigils on their armor which is stupid on a number of levels... Or Inquisitor Kryptman, a guy whose plan to stop the Tyranids was so morally bankrupt that he was banished FROM THE INQUISITION.

Eh, I can make the first work assuming I'm allowed to make the Emperor into Sigmar (and thus a god of Law). The second is clearly to show that, even though they'll let each other get away with atrocities, the Inquisition does have limits and will police its own.

Really GW began this problem when they did a control-c control-v before replacing 'Witch Hunter' with 'Inauistor' (and 'razed the village to be sure' with 'exterminatus').

[Peelee]

That cannot be his real name. No way.

Born Richard Anthony Wolf. That is absolutely his real name. He also went to U Penn and is worth half a billion dollars. Dude is living a dream life.

[Fyraltari]

Born Richard Anthony Wolf. That is absolutely his real name. He also went to U Penn and is worth half a billion dollars. Dude is living a dream life.

Also, what's a "U Penn"?

[factotum]

Also, what's a "U Penn".

At a guess, University of Pennsylvania?

[Fyraltari]

At a guess, University of Pennsylvania?

Based on U(ntersee)-Boot, it might be some underwater giant pen.

[Metastachydium]

Based on U(ntersee)-Boot, it might be some underwater giant pen.

No, you see, it is German. It derives from the root of pennen ('to sleep') and it means 'underwater capsule hotel'.

[HalfTangible]

To be fair, Warhammer was a lot less bleak than 40k is. Yes, the world is on track to become literal hell if it doesn't just end, and a bunch of dickbags are in charge, but unlike the Imperium there is legitimate progression and development in the Empire (and presumably other states that aren't Bretonnia). Plus the forces of Law are much more clearly active, for better or for worse.

This is true.

The whole joke is that this bunch of space/magic fascists are doing everything in the most needlessly brutal and inefficient way because they're ****ing brainwashed authoritarian drones whose critical thinking skills, sense of humor or perspective and basic compassion had been hammered out (possibly literally) a long time ago. They're not right, they're deluded monsters. It's like Juge Dredd it's a parody of dictatorships.

At least that was the original intent. But a lot of that has vanished over the years replaced with "no the Space Marines are heroes actually" and all the other "they have to be like this or Chaos wins" crap to the point we now have sympathetic witchhunter/inquisitor/commissar characters. You know, the people whose job it is to kill people who get the idea they have rights. This is probably because it's easier to sell whole boxsets and books to people if the characters they're supposed to play as/indentify with have some redeeming qualities rather than being evil caricatures.

Oh no

... People exist?

yeah, the Warhammer setting has a looot of problems even before someone makes tge mistake of trying to tell a story in it.

I wouldn't call it a problem with the setting, persay.

"No, you don't understand. He was banished. From the INQUISITION. For BEING TOO CRUEL. " is still one of my favorite Text to Speech lines.

It's so good.

Also, they're not settings to be taken seriously. They not only satirical, they're comedic (and in my view quite obviously so). These extends even past the Greenskins, it's just a very dark sense of humour.

That's the thing, the Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40, 000 universes aren't supposed to be cynical but satyrical.

No see, that's actually good. Well except the bit where Kryptmann gets punished for his abhorrent crime. This kind of balls-to-the-wall insanity is what the Imperium is about. They don't care about their allies or their subjects in the slightest and will gleefully sacrifice them all if they believe it's slightly more convienient than not.
Because the Imperium is not, has never been and will never be the Good Guys.

See, this is one reason why I've never bought the line that the Imperium is satirical. It requires that you ignore good ideas and make the setting worse in order to justify it.

This line needs to die. I don't care if GW believes it, it's nonsense. If 40k was ever just pure satire it's moved far beyond that point and it's better for it.

[Fyraltari]

Oh no

... People exist?

What is that supposed to mean?

See, this is one reason why I've never bought the line that the Imperium is satirical. It requires that you ignore good ideas and make the setting worse in order to justify it.

This line needs to die. I don't care if GW believes it, it's nonsense. If 40k was ever just pure satire it's moved far beyond that point and it's better for it.

You think unironically presenting a cross between exaggerated versions of the nazis and the inquistion as reasonnable and good makes for a better setting?

[Peelee]

At a guess, University of Pennsylvania?

Aye. It is a very prestigious school. Usually ranks in the top 15 universities globally. It's no Oxford, but it's not far off.

ETA: Apropos of absolutely nothing but second-hand bragging rights: my dad went to a top five. Smartest man I ever met.

[HalfTangible]

You think unironically presenting a cross between exaggerated versions of the nazis and the inquistion as reasonnable and good makes for a better setting?

Nice strawman. It seems we have nothing to discuss.

[Anonymouswizard]

You think unironically presenting a cross between exaggerated versions of the nazis and the inquistion as reasonnable and good makes for a better setting?

Eh, I'm fine with sympathetic Witch Hunters/Inquisitors. They are doing a necessary job, but the majority go too far, until they're playing hopscotch with the moral event horizon in some cases.

In all honesty though, this is why Warhammer Fantasy is my favourite part of the franchise. I really don't like the heroic route that Age of Sigmar is taking, but 40k is also far too grimdark for me. Warhammer Fantasy hits that sweet spot, including the note that yes Witch Hunters know that not all witches are actually chaos sorcerers, that a good number of witches do end up offered training to become wizards, and that there aren't thousands of innocents sacrificed daily. Sadly I haven't read the novels yet, so I'm not deep into the lore. It's not as meme worthy, but it's solid.

[HalfTangible]

Eh, I'm fine with sympathetic Witch Hunters/Inquisitors. They are doing a necessary job, but the majority go too far, until they're playing hopscotch with the moral event horizon in some cases.

In all honesty though, this is why Warhammer Fantasy is my favourite part of the franchise. I really don't like the heroic route that Age of Sigmar is taking, but 40k is also far too grimdark for me. Warhammer Fantasy hits that sweet spot, including the note that yes Witch Hunters know that not all witches are actually chaos sorcerers, that a good number of witches do end up offered training to become wizards, and that there aren't thousands of innocents sacrificed daily. Sadly I haven't read the novels yet, so I'm not deep into the lore. It's not as meme worthy, but it's solid.

Warhammer Fantasy has the Skaven. Therefore, it's automatically the best setting there is. Don't @ me.

[Fyraltari]

Nice strawman. It seems we have nothing to discuss.

It's not a strawman it's an honest question. "Cross-between an exaggerated version of the Nazis and an exaggerated version of the Inquisition" is an apt description of the Imperium, like, that's 90% of their coding, give or take a Dune or two. It was originally meant as dark-humor, as a parody of those ideals but overtime it morphed by presenting more and more the Imperials as reasonnable in their actions and good by virtue of not being the other guys and willing to die for the Imperium. You seemed to be saying that this shift makes the setting better, which is something I don't understand.

I am not trying to imply anything about you, I am trying to understand your position.

[Anonymouswizard]

Warhammer Fantasy has the Skaven. Therefore, it's automatically the best setting there is. Don't @ me.

What Skaven? Nothing in the sewers but rats and bigger rats

[HalfTangible]

What Skaven? Nothing in the sewers but rats and bigger rats

Indeed! Famed scholar Nott A. Ratman has assured us that the Skaven are nothing more than a myth! Nevermind that he's almost never appeared in public without wearing a hood, smells like a sewer and on the rare occasions you've seen his face he's worn a very cheap false mustache and keeps muttering about how every man-thing is an idiot.

[Anonymouswizard]

Indeed! Famed scholar Nott A. Ratman has assured us that the Skaven are nothing more than a myth! Nevermind that he's almost never appeared in public without wearing a hood, smells like a sewer and on the rare occasions you've seen his face he's worn a very cheap false mustache and keeps muttering about how every man-thing is an idiot.

Probably an exiled dwarf, I hear that they remove the beards to shame them.

Good to hear that he's backing up the ratcatchers' guild though.

[Rater202]

I would like to be a shapshifter with three forms.

1: Energy efficient, adorable, smol form.

2: Big, huge, swole form.

3: Daikaiju.

[Lord Raziere]

I would like to be a shapshifter with three forms.

1: Energy efficient, adorable, smol form.

2: Big, huge, swole form.

3: Daikaiju.

Your more decisive than me. If I was a shapeshifter, I'd make my body female and probably keep my red hair and green eyes, but I'm not sure about everything else. I tend to play around in character customizers so having that for my life would probably end up with whatever I feel like at the time.

[Peelee]

Why y'all be pigeonholing yourselves so much? You're a shapeshifter. You can shift shapes. Limits schmimits, you can have a blast with the variety.

[Rater202]

Why y'all be pigeonholing yourselves so much? You're a shapeshifter. You can shift shapes. Limits schmimits, you can have a blast with the variety.

While that's true, having one or more concrete "true" forms can be comforting.

[Keltest]

At a guess, University of Pennsylvania?

Not to be confused with Pennsylvania State University, yes.

[Peelee]

Not to be confused with Pennsylvania State University, yes.

Yeah, but who ever talks about Penn State? Nobody, that's who.

Spoiler: For anyone who needs the frog dissected

Show

Pennn State is also an incredibly prestigious school, effectively being Ivy League without the title.

[Mystic Muse]

While that's true, having one or more concrete "true" forms can be comforting.

Yeah, agreed with this.

[LaZodiac]

Well humans, it's that time again.

Eggnog is back in stock.

Given my recent bout with ye olde diabetes flair up (which I have kept control of quite perfectly I might add) I'll allow myself to get some, but I really must be cautious. But how cautious... that is the question.

Regarding the other topics at hand; The Imperium sacrifices thousands to keep their god-emperor alive. There is no realm where they are The Good Guys except by comparison to all the other worse guys. Hero By Default is not a good look... unless you ARE being satirical, which Warhammer 40K clearly is. Hell, it opens the first codec with "it is the grim darkness of the future". I don't think it makes the setting worse to admit that it is a little tongue in cheek- the orks are literally football hooligans.

Shapeshifting would be really cool, for obvious reasons coughamtranscough but also because it is just so useful, and unlike some shapeshifters (mostly stuff I see in media) I'd know how to actually be inventive with that sorta stuff. Which is really my baseline level of interest in shapeshifters in media- are you utilizing your powers in an effective and cool way that takes advantage of the fact that you can be anything? Well, if you're not at least on the par of "Kars turns into a swarm of piranha's to eat an airplane apart" or "Deltorra Quest's shapeshifter antagonist uses the wounds you give him to create literal scab armour, as well as just treating his body less like a physical being and more like liquid meat" then I'm just gonna shake my head in your general direction.

To summarize; if you're not evoking eldritch horror or going to the absolute limit of reasonable sense with your shapeshifting, you better have a good reason as to why.

------

On a related tangent: I saw the aftermath of a wizard explosion today. Walking down the street early morning, there was a section of street covered in basic playing cards and food from the McDonald's on the other side of town. Some of the cards were torn as if chewed on. It's stuff like this that reminds me that supernatural stuff shouldn't always be dismissed completely out of hand, because there is no mundane explanation for this that isn't on par with "it was actually just a wizard exploding".

[Lord Raziere]

Well humans, it's that time again.

Eggnog is back in stock.

Given my recent bout with ye olde diabetes flair up (which I have kept control of quite perfectly I might add) I'll allow myself to get some, but I really must be cautious. But how cautious... that is the question.

Regarding the other topics at hand; The Imperium sacrifices thousands to keep their god-emperor alive. There is no realm where they are The Good Guys except by comparison to all the other worse guys. Hero By Default is not a good look... unless you ARE being satirical, which Warhammer 40K clearly is. Hell, it opens the first codec with "it is the grim darkness of the future". I don't think it makes the setting worse to admit that it is a little tongue in cheek- the orks are literally football hooligans.

Shapeshifting would be really cool, for obvious reasons coughamtranscough but also because it is just so useful, and unlike some shapeshifters (mostly stuff I see in media) I'd know how to actually be inventive with that sorta stuff. Which is really my baseline level of interest in shapeshifters in media- are you utilizing your powers in an effective and cool way that takes advantage of the fact that you can be anything? Well, if you're not at least on the par of "Kars turns into a swarm of piranha's to eat an airplane apart" or "Deltorra Quest's shapeshifter antagonist uses the wounds you give him to create literal scab armour, as well as just treating his body less like a physical being and more like liquid meat" then I'm just gonna shake my head in your general direction.

To summarize; if you're not evoking eldritch horror or going to the absolute limit of reasonable sense with your shapeshifting, you better have a good reason as to why.

1. Personally I like WH40k best when its ridiculous and comedic. Ciaphas Cain, TTS, things like that. like I'd rather read a story where Chaos is literally just people playing rock and roll music but because its chaos the music makes people kill each other and the Imperium has to stop the spread by replacing it all with Emperor worshipping songs like "The Treads on the Leman Russ Crush the Heretic" or something like that, because thats how ridiculous the wh40k universe has to be, to function as good guys even by default. and if you want a hopeful 40k, there is a fan setting called Brighthammer for that.

2. I mean it kinda depends on the shapeshifter, because shapeshifter is a very broad concept like in general. the "turn into anything" shapeshifter is actually an incredibly powerful ability, like if used smartly it could literally make you invincible because if you know all the forms to counter everything else and are fast you can turn into whatever to solve the situation. so many shapeshifters are more limited than that to make sure they can't go "I have a form for that" and insta-win. like full potential no limits shapeshifting is something potentially near godlike. its why Beast Boy is limited to animal forms or Mystique is limited to disguising herself as people. like its great when you can see that kind of shapeshifting, but there is good reasons why it doesn't show up much.

[Rater202]

Mystique isn't limited to describing as other humans. She can also change her biomass to resemble clothing, grow extra limbs, compress ultra-flat to slide under doors or flout away on warm currents, accelerate her recovery by shapeshifting damaged tissue(though this has limits) adapt to danger, and even make her body take on the forms of wood, stone, or metal.

Granted, a good chunk of that is from secondary mutations.

[Anonymouswizard]

1. Personally I like WH40k best when its ridiculous and comedic.

Good news! That describes the vast majority of 40k! (Black comedy yo.)

Never got why people try to take it seriously. Like, the football hooligans in space should have been the first giveaway.

Mystique isn't limited to describing as other humans. She can also change her biomass to resemble clothing, grow extra limbs, compress ultra-flat to slide under doors or flout away on warm currents, accelerate her recovery by shapeshifting damaged tissue(though this has limits) adapt to danger, and even make her body take on the forms of wood, stone, or metal.

Granted, a good chunk of that is from secondary mutations.

And yet she still has to wear trousers. The injustice of it all.

[Metastachydium]

Well humans

[The resident happy little blue flower glares.]

And yet she still has to wear trousers. The injustice of it all.

Be a birdy or a lizard. They don't need trousers!