Belkar Bitterleaf, confirmed speciesist?

[brian 333]

If we're gonna play this game ... then obviously Vaarsuvius is the speciesist. From the moment we met them, V's been demonstrating little but contempt for others on the grounds of their inferior intellectual capacity. Sure, we thought it might be just because of their general haughty, self-important personality - but notice V only behaves as such towards non-elves? I mean, V's only had interactions with non-elves - thus my point cannot be disproven, and therefore I am absolutely correct.

Sure, it might be that Vaarsuvius just doesn't get along with Belkar - but maybe it's because V hates short races. V was extremely disrespectful to Durkon - and it took a cosmic-level shattering of their self-image to eventually apologize. Even now, as their comrade gasps for air, believing he had been poisoned, Vaarsuvius has to just get that little verbal jab in, just to spite Belkar. Sure, you could say it's just because the comic has to have a punchline - but I demand you prove to me that it's not a sign that Vaarsuvius has deep-rooted anti-halflingist beliefs.

I demand that you prove to me all the negatives and evidence of all the absences, to my arbitrary and self-defined standard.

Well played good Ser. Your logic is as dubious as it irrefutable. Your mastery of internet debate is truely awe inspiring.

Because you cannot be proven wrong, binary logic requires that you are right, and any counter-arguments against your position are, by default, mere naysaying.

You win. Here are your two internets and your Monty Python skit from the Ministry of Arguments in recognition of your mental acuity.

[Jason]

I was amazed to see Belkar about to offer someone he had every excuse to kill a chance to surrender too. But I think it has nothing to do with the race of his opponent. It shows that he really has changed alignment. He is no longer chaotic evil. He isn't "playing along" anymore, he really isn't evil anymore.

[Peelee]

You know ... now that I've gotten into this ... I'm actually starting see the logic in elven superiority. Think about it: elves live for hundreds of years - which means that the knowledge that they are able to obtain and compile in that time must be staggering. At best, a human scientist might have a 100 years of study, if they started as soon as they were out of the womb right up til they entered the grave. But an elven scientist could easily do that in a fraction of their lifetime. Think of the greatness they could accomplish - and that's just your average elf! In terms of just the huge amount of knowledge they must absorb, then every elf naturally should be more intelligent than every non-elf, simply by weight of their experience!

And let's not forget their physical attributes - great agility, excellent vision, tremendous hand-eye coordination, innate magical sense - and they get to have that for centuries! Even the best human athlete can't maintain a physical prime for longer than a couple decades. That's a blink of an eye in an elven lifespan.

I think I now support the ideology of elven superiority - just like confirmed elf supremacist Vaarsuvius.



(Although, it does then beg the question: If elves have such fantastically long lifespans, accumulated knowledge, and magical abilities, as well as being the oldest, most advanced civilization in Fantasy-land ... then why are they technologically on par with dumb smelly humans? Roy's teen sister just invented a psychic, blood oath-powered version of WhatsApp - meanwhile, V has to sell their soul to the underworld because the elves, with their immortal lifespans and their unending civilization, never got around to inventing the telephone.)

This is addressed in-comic (IIRC. Maybe a prequel? Not 100%) and in D&D generally. The longer lived a race is the slower to act they are, so it pretty much evens out. Oots elves, for example, spend what, three decades as babies in diapers?

[Liquor Box]

If I recall correctly Durkon does a fair amount of bitching and whining about non-Dwarven characters in one of the prequels.

It seems good old humans are the only ones immune from specieism

[KorvinStarmast]

If I recall correctly Durkon does a fair amount of bitching and whining about non-Dwarven characters in one of the prequels.

In his defense

Spoiler: SoD scene of major import

Show

Their Beer Sucks!

[Precure]

I did provide evidence, you just discounted it all too easily (no, stressing the shortcomings of humans while disregarding their merits is not a sign of respect). Also, I think they remark somewhere that humans should just grow up and create a global unified government for themselves as the elves did.

Your claim was that V see humans as lowly mentally challenged creatures. Nothing V said in that panel supports such a view. In fact, based on their scenes in this strip, Haley and Roy were part of the few people that V respected most.

[Mike Havran]

You know ... now that I've gotten into this ... I'm actually starting see the logic in elven superiority. Think about it: elves live for hundreds of years - which means that the knowledge that they are able to obtain and compile in that time must be staggering. At best, a human scientist might have a 100 years of study, if they started as soon as they were out of the womb right up til they entered the grave. But an elven scientist could easily do that in a fraction of their lifetime. Think of the greatness they could accomplish - and that's just your average elf! In terms of just the huge amount of knowledge they must absorb, then every elf naturally should be more intelligent than every non-elf, simply by weight of their experience!

Actually, it took V about 100 years to learn first-level spell. This implies Elves are actually much more stupid than shorter-lived races, or, at least develop their mental faculties at much slower pace.

This is addressed in-comic (IIRC. Maybe a prequel? Not 100%) and in D&D generally. The longer lived a race is the slower to act they are, so it pretty much evens out. Oots elves, for example, spend what, three decades as babies in diapers?

In Kazumi and Diago story, elven maid claims their babies need at least 10 years of breastfeeding.

[Precure]

This is addressed in-comic (IIRC. Maybe a prequel? Not 100%) and in D&D generally. The longer lived a race is the slower to act they are, so it pretty much evens out. Oots elves, for example, spend what, three decades as babies in diapers?

Haley and V discussed this on OtOotPCs.

[skim172]

This is addressed in-comic (IIRC. Maybe a prequel? Not 100%) and in D&D generally. The longer lived a race is the slower to act they are, so it pretty much evens out. Oots elves, for example, spend what, three decades as babies in diapers?

There is a positive correlation between the amount of time a species spends as a juvenile and level of intelligence. It means more time to learn and gain knowledge while brain plasticity and development is at its peak. Sure, the elves spend 30 years in diapers - but by god, will those babies really master the skill of pooping by the end of it.

Actually, it took V about 100 years to learn first-level spell. This implies Elves are actually much more stupid than shorter-lived races, or, at least develop their mental faculties at much slower pace.

That would explain why the elves have not yet managed to conquer the world with cyber-robots. They're just incredibly dumb. They need those hundreds of years just to keep up with the mortal species.



... I'm starting to think my eager betrayal of humanity to our elven hegemons was rash and premature.

[Metastachydium]

Your claim was that V see humans as lowly mentally challenged creatures. Nothing V said in that panel supports such a view.

If humans, as viewed by V are inferior to other species (many drawbacks, no benefits), then positing that they consider humans lowly is not really a stretch. As for mentally challenged, I still owe you the strip where the political wisdom of humans gets criticized, but until then, there's Vs dismissing Roy as probably dumb in Origin (and since we don't know why they thought that, it's obvious that it's THE SPECIESISM TALKING!).

In fact, based on their scenes in this strip, Haley and Roy were part of the few people that V respected most.

Where do you get the idea that V respects Haley?

That would explain why the elves have not yet managed to conquer the world with cyber-robots. They're just incredibly dumb. They need those hundreds of years just to keep up with the mortal species.



... I'm starting to think my eager betrayal of humanity to our elven hegemons was rash and premature.

Fear not! Their slow, methodical approach to things and their lack of a desire to subjugate others or overrely on advanced technology is merely a testament to their superior wisdom.

[137beth]

You know ... now that I've gotten into this ... I'm actually starting see the logic in elven superiority. Think about it: elves live for hundreds of years - which means that the knowledge that they are able to obtain and compile in that time must be staggering. At best, a human scientist might have a 100 years of study, if they started as soon as they were out of the womb right up til they entered the grave. But an elven scientist could easily do that in a fraction of their lifetime. Think of the greatness they could accomplish - and that's just your average elf! In terms of just the huge amount of knowledge they must absorb, then every elf naturally should be more intelligent than every non-elf, simply by weight of their experience!

And let's not forget their physical attributes - great agility, excellent vision, tremendous hand-eye coordination, innate magical sense - and they get to have that for centuries! Even the best human athlete can't maintain a physical prime for longer than a couple decades. That's a blink of an eye in an elven lifespan.

I think I now support the ideology of elven superiority - just like confirmed elf supremacist Vaarsuvius.



(Although, it does then beg the question: If elves have such fantastically long lifespans, accumulated knowledge, and magical abilities, as well as being the oldest, most advanced civilization in Fantasy-land ... then why are they technologically on par with dumb smelly humans? Roy's teen sister just invented a psychic, blood oath-powered version of WhatsApp - meanwhile, V has to sell their soul to the underworld because the elves, with their immortal lifespans and their unending civilization, never got around to inventing the telephone.)

Clearly the Western/Elven pantheon don't want the elves to invent the telephone, since it would mess with the medeival fantasy aspect of the setting.
Also, if the world is under 2000 years old, then there have only been a few full elven generations.

[skim172]

Clearly the Western/Elven pantheon don't want the elves to invent the telephone, since it would mess with the medeival fantasy aspect of the setting.
Also, if the world is under 2000 years old, then there have only been a few full elven generations.

Easy solution: magic telephones.

[Rrmcklin]

I was amazed to see Belkar about to offer someone he had every excuse to kill a chance to surrender too. But I think it has nothing to do with the race of his opponent. It shows that he really has changed alignment. He is no longer chaotic evil. He isn't "playing along" anymore, he really isn't evil anymore.

No, Belkar is definitely still chaotic, and definitely still evil. Not being stupid, and not jumping at the chance to kill everything, is not the same thing as not being evil.

If there's ever a time where we're supposed to think that Belkar has definitively changed alignment, I can't imagine the story won't make that abundantly clear.

[Precure]

If humans, as viewed by V are inferior to other species (many drawbacks, no benefits), then positing that they consider humans lowly is not really a stretch.

It is a stretch.

As for mentally challenged, I still owe you the strip where the political wisdom of humans gets criticized, but until then, there's Vs dismissing Roy as probably dumb in Origin (and since we don't know why they thought that, it's obvious that it's THE SPECIESISM TALKING!).

No, it's because he's a fighter.

Where do you get the idea that V respects Haley?

For a start, they refer to her as Miss Starshine.

[Metastachydium]

It is a stretch.

I don't think so.

No, it's because he's a fighter.

That's not written all over him. Also, Roy's reaction to "you are [an] ignorant creti[n]" is basically "yeah, that must be V".

For a start, they refer to her as Miss Starshine.

Yeah sure, that's the most clear indication ever that she is one of the people V respects most. [/sarcasm]

[Peelee]

That's not written all over him. Also, Roy's reaction to "you are [an] ignorant creti[n]" is basically "yeah, that must be V".

For what it's worth, V initially dismissed Roy while Roy was looking for a Wizard, implying Roy was not a Wizard, and I think we can all agree that V believed in wizardry superiority at that point. Non-wizards would only not be wizards because they were not smart enough to be wizards is a very likely position for V to have held at that point.

[Metastachydium]

For what it's worth, V initially dismissed Roy while Roy was looking for a Wizard, implying Roy was not a Wizard, and I think we can all agree that V believed in wizardry superiority at that point. Non-wizards would only not be wizards because they were not smart enough to be wizards is a very likely position for V to have held at that point.

Well, actually
1. he wasn't looking for a wizard, specifically and
2. the heavy armour should have told V anyway that if he's a wizard, he's probably not really good at it.

Edit: as for honorifics, on the very same page (no. 61) V calls Roy "sir" in a sentence meant to convey the message that V's smart and he's not.

[Precure]

Yeah sure, that's the most clear indication ever that she is one of the people V respects most.

I guess this is the end of our arguement.

[Metastachydium]

I guess this is the end of our arguement.

I'm sorry. I don't think your argument was very good, but I didn't mean to offend you or anything.

[Squire Doodad]

Actually, it took V about 100 years to learn first-level spell. This implies Elves are actually much more stupid than shorter-lived races, or, at least develop their mental faculties at much slower pace.

If we assume about 5 elf years to one human year, that'd be about 20, in which case it's possible that V wasn't allowed to study until "Wizard College" and then mastered his first spell within a decade of studying magic theory. I could see an 18 yo equivalent V being taught in intricate detail the theory, history, and mechanics of magic for years before covering the actual casting of spells. Perhaps elvish society has proverbs and norms revolving around letting a flower bloom or making sure a can of beans is well-soaked.

A longer-aged race means that elves are able to have their geniuses persist for ages and make countless magnificent marvels; however, there are other drawbacks, such as having to take care of someone too young to handle themselves for five times as long.
It also means that society is more static, as while good leaders can persist for longer, there are fewer gaps for revolutionary ideas to go in and disrupt the system. If a society has people hitting 400 and being fully functional, they may desire distinction from those pesky 320 and 200 year olds, leading to additional stratification that restricts that One Person With A Great Idea tm from being able to quickly climb the ladder and get things done. Making everyone go the long route is a great way to make a stable society, but it does not make a highly innovative one.
I would argue elvish limitations are more cultural on the whole, though biology clearly plays a role as well.

[Aedilred]

If we're gonna play this game ... then obviously Vaarsuvius is the speciesist. From the moment we met them, V's been demonstrating little but contempt for others on the grounds of their inferior intellectual capacity. Sure, we thought it might be just because of their general haughty, self-important personality - but notice V only behaves as such towards non-elves? I mean, V's only had interactions with non-elves - thus my point cannot be disproven, and therefore I am absolutely correct.

Sure, it might be that Vaarsuvius just doesn't get along with Belkar - but maybe it's because V hates short races. V was extremely disrespectful to Durkon - and it took a cosmic-level shattering of their self-image to eventually apologize. Even now, as their comrade gasps for air, believing he had been poisoned, Vaarsuvius has to just get that little verbal jab in, just to spite Belkar. Sure, you could say it's just because the comic has to have a punchline - but I demand you prove to me that it's not a sign that Vaarsuvius has deep-rooted anti-halflingist beliefs.

I demand that you prove to me all the negatives and evidence of all the absences, to my arbitrary and self-defined standard.

I see what you're doing, although I don't think this adds up. V has almost always treated Roy with respect, Durkon usually with at least a degree of politeness (albeit impatience sometimes gets in the way), and is actively friendly with Haley.

And while the first couple of books obviously showcased V's rivalry with Belkar, that's changed since they both had their big character-development moments in book 4: arguably, Belkar is now the member of the party V is closest to, bar Haley. They obviously still can't resist having a bit of a jab at each other every now and again, because that's how their relationship works, but it seems all the venom has gone out of it.

Then again, V is a confirmed elf-supremacist anyway: see the chat with Haley in Origin which results in her sneak-attacking V.

[zinycor]

Belkar has always been Speciesist. He was specially aggresive towards Kobolds and has always been evil... I see nothing new here...

BTW I Love Belkar, my favorite character by far

[Precure]

"Can someone shoot her already."

"We need to talk to her."

Hmmm...

[Bacon Elemental]

"Can someone shoot her already."

"We need to talk to her."

Hmmm...

I'll be honest I read all this the same way as back in #780 like "As much as I love killing people, you losers hate it. are you sure I'm allowed to do this all of a sudden"