Looking for Advice for a low stat character for healing/support

[Glarnog]

Straight Human, no feats. His commoner occupation was as a 'hunter'. I think the party needs a replacement healer, or some sort of off healer/support. Not sure what class to go with. Seems cleric, and druid are out. I don't think sorc, or warlocks heal. maybe a bard or paladin? If there is a way to get con as a casting stat that would be ideal. :) . Equipment is usually very limited.

Final stats:
Str 11
Dex 12
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 8
Chr 12

This started off as a Goodman Games, Dungeon Crawl zero level funnel and shoe horning 5e rules because the players were familiar with it. Though I think we are moving in to 5e Cthulhu things, and encounters the DM is designing. The players started out with 3 zero level "commoners" with stats 3d6 down the line. After many deaths the players have about 2 characters each. We have 4th lvl Warlock and Sorceror, and then either a 4th level Necromancer and Barbarian, or they swap out for 3rd level Bard and Rogue. (they are a married couple and switch off due to finding a sitter). I run a dog who has far out lived it's herdsman master, and until recently a 3rd level life cleric who died. We don't often get a lot of down time, or chances to shop, let alone have any money. Most of the equipment is just want we find in the field, if it's even reusable after we've dealt with the original owners. It's a lot of fun, but brutal. Even the dog is starting to rack up phobias, obsessions, and paranoia. :)

[Willie the Duck]

Bard would work. So would Moon Druid (your combat contribution would be animal forms instead of spells with Save DCs or to-hits, so the low Wisdom would only effect number of spells prepared). You don't have a non-Con stat of 13+ so multiclassing is out.

You use the term 'the players' -- does that mean that you are the DM. If that's the case, I'd make the argument that the characters should be built using the 5e rules, and if you want to play some level of 'hard' mode, do so with an eye towards the system being run. Suffice to say, I'm not overly enchanted with the idea of porting over a character from another game and leaving the stats as-is. Stats in other games (including other versions of D&D) don't mean the same thing, and using stat-line from one game to inform how things shake out in another game is, well, as you put it, shoehorning. There is some really good advice in the DMG about ways to up the challenge level if you find 5e to easy-mode-ish, and I think those might be a better starting point than using system X's funnel on system Y without regard to the actual gameplay differences the systems have. YMMV, just my 2 cp, etc.

[NecessaryWeevil]

There are lots of cool and unusual options. Any subclass restrictions?

[RogueJK]

Seems cleric, and druid are out.

A Moon Druid would be workable. You take on the STR/DEX/CON of your Wild Shape form. And you can't cast spells when Wild Shaped anyway. So your low WIS means you won't be able to prepare as many spells, and you won't be able to utilize Druid spells that rely on attack rolls or saves very effectively. But you can still use utility spells out of combat, and you'll be able to heal, albeit with some reduced effectiveness on some healing spells due to your negative WISMOD.

Shepherd Druid is another decent option. They specialize in summoning allies and buffing them. And some of the summoning spells don't care what your WIS score is (especially the older Conjure spells compared to the newer Summon X spells). Nor do your Spirit Totem auras.

Life Cleric would be viable specifically at healing, with your Disciple of Life ability more than counteracting your negative WISMOD on healing spells. And most buff spells don't rely on casting stat. The problem is, you won't be able to contribute much directly to combat, since your weapon attacks, AC, and offensive spellcasting will be severely hampered. You'd basically just be a more passive heal/buff bot for the party.

I don't think sorc, or warlocks heal.

Divine Soul Sorcerers and Celestial Warlocks can access healing spells.

Final stats:
Str 11
Dex 12
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 8
Chr 12

With stats like that, you're going to struggle with most traditional caster classes, who try to damage or inflict effects on enemies and whose spells therefore rely heavily on their casting stats for attack bonus and save DC.

Your best bet is going to go Moon or Shepherd Druid, and dump all your ASIs into WIS. Since it sounds like you're starting at 4th level, you'd already have Wild Shape online on a Moon Druid, or be very close to getting your base summoning online with a Shepherd Druid. You'll be in better shape than any other traditional spellcaster class.

Otherwise, you could do a CHA-based caster like Divine Soul Sorcerer (or possibly Celestial Warlock or Bard), dumping all ASIs into CHA, and just understand that things are going to be a bit rough due to you missing/failing a lot with your spells until your CHA gets up to 16ish. But you can mitigate this by prioritizing things like buffs and summons that don't rely on casting stat, or AoE damage spells that still do half damage even on a successful save.

[Glarnog]

I am a player and not the DM. Sorry for the confusion. As the encounters are now being designed 5e style, I have asked if our low stats are being kept in mind. No reply yet. And while often brutal, the campaign is way cool and a lot of fun.

[Glarnog]

I didn't know that about warlocks or sorcerers healing. I'll have to look them up. I have played a moon druid before. I could just good berry my spells, and hope to animal shape everything else. Would kind of fit with a huntsman. Then again with the cosmic horror's we've been facing lately, any class would fit.

[Glarnog]

afaik there aren't any restrictions on classes or subclasses. Except maybe Bloodhunter.

[Glarnog]

And sorry for further confusion. He will be just a first level character. Usually just notebook paper until they hit at least 2nd level. :) Counting the dog he'll be my 6th character for this campaign.

[J-H]

Artificer can boost his own Str or Int with infusions by mid levels, and has some healing spells plus support options.

[Frogreaver]

Divine Soul Sorcerer

1. You know spells instead of prepare spells. (Low stat mod means you won't keep very many spells prepared with most prepared casters).
2. You have a good con and con save proficiency and some excellent buff spells (Bless, Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility).
3. You can twin spell the buffs
4. Early on you can get magic missile and sleep (neither relies on charisma)
5. You start with a high enough charisma that after you boost it to 14 at level 4 it should be passable.

Lore Bard could also work but I think sorcerer is hands down better without the charisma

If you started high enough level with an artificer to get the stat boosting items i'd suggest those as the previous poster mentioned.

Also being Fighter could work since they get many ASI boosts. You'd get your Dex up to reasonable in no time.

[Dork_Forge]

Artificer can boost his own Str or Int with infusions by mid levels, and has some healing spells plus support options.

Armorer would probably be a good way to go, since they don't have the Dex to make Medium Armor really work anyway.

[Corpus]

I would recommend either a Celestial Warlock or an Artilerist Artificer (Protector Canon).

Have played both and while different they are both good support with healing and/or damage mitigation.

[Garresh]

With those stats I would strongly avoid Bard or Artificer. They have too many features that key off their attributes. Additionally, the bard spell list is mostly debuffs rather than buffs. You need to do everything in your power to avoid making attack rolls or causing saving throws. Also healing shouldn't really be your primary goal.

Gonna plug my guide for healing philosophy:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ler-s-Handbook

So back to the point. You want a caster class that avoids attack rolls or saving throws and prefers to interact entirely with allies. You ALSO want to avoid classes that are dependent on primary attributes for their buff effects.

Imho, your options are either Sorcerer, Cleric, or Moon Druid. Sorcerer is one of the best buffing classes and divine can get you some healing spells just in case. Twin Spell + any buff makes sorc god tier for single target uberbuffs like haste or greater invis.

Cleric has some decent buff options, but Bless will never go out of style due to bounded accuracy. Life cleric would be an okay option but tbh you wanna wade into melee as a life cleric and your stats don't allow it. I think your best bet would actually be Order domain. Turn your spell slots into free attacks for your allies. This gives you a little more options since you can use your spell slots to attack without attacking.

Moon Druid can heal but that's secondary to wild shape. Since you take the stats of the beast your crap stats don't matter. Shepherd is an option, but I sort of advise against it since you can't get summons til level 3 at minimum. Most druid spells are control effects which involve saving throws, and having to wait multiple levels to do anything sounds awful. Go Moon and become a god tier melee class instead.

[Garresh]

I would recommend either a Celestial Warlock or an Artilerist Artificer (Protector Canon).

Have played both and while different they are both good support with healing and/or damage mitigation.

Protector is boss but Artificer still kinda is dependent on int for features. And warlock doesn't have the spell slots or buffs to compensate for having such a weak eldritch blast.

I really feel like divine sorc is outright superior to warlock in this case. Eldritch blast is just too class defining and without that warlock is just a ****ty sorceror with better fashion sense.

[Eldariel]

Moon Druid is the most survivable option. Just roll with it. Plus healer isn't really all that: the best way to prevent damage is to stop the enemy from harming you.

[Dork_Forge]

Plus healer isn't really all that: the best way to prevent damage is to stop the enemy from harming you.

An ideal that is not realistic in play. Characters will get damaged, be it AOEs, traps, or just getting hit before the enemy dies.

[RogueJK]

While healing in combat often isn't a very efficient use of the action economy, a party still needs to have a means to heal after/outside of combat. No matter what, the party is going to take damage at some point. And unless your DM only runs one combat per day, you typically can't rely solely on Hit Dice or Long Rests to cover that.

That's where something like a Moon Druid works well: melee/tank in combat then utility/healing caster out of combat.

[Dork_Forge]

While healing in combat often isn't a very efficient use of the action economy, a party still needs to have a means to heal after/outside of combat. No matter what, the party is going to take damage at some point. And unless your DM only runs one combat per day, you typically can't rely solely on Hit Dice or Long Rests to cover that.

That's where something like a Moon Druid works well: melee/tank in combat then utility/healing caster out of combat.

Mostly agree, however I feel it's worth pointing out that in combat healing can be very efficient if you're actually built as a healer, rather than someone that has access to healing.

[Eldariel]

An ideal that is not realistic in play. Characters will get damaged, be it AOEs, traps, or just getting hit before the enemy dies.

While healing in combat often isn't a very efficient use of the action economy, a party still needs to have a means to heal after/outside of combat. No matter what, the party is going to take damage at some point. And unless your DM only runs one combat per day, you typically can't rely solely on Hit Dice or Long Rests to cover that.

That's where something like a Moon Druid works well: melee/tank in combat then utility/healing caster out of combat.

Yeah, patching up after fight is of course fine. HD does help a lot though - non-healer parties kinda work in 5e. But even in patching up, you have to be very resource efficient; otherwise you won't have combat resources to fight the next fight even if you have the HP to push on. The crux of the issue is that every slot used for healing is a slot not used for combat and thus shoring up one resource leads to a deficiency in another (powerful combat actions).

Mostly agree, however I feel it's worth pointing out that in combat healing can be very efficient if you're actually built as a healer, rather than someone that has access to healing.

That's mostly something like Life Cleric or the one burst use of Paladin's Lay on Hands - it is very rare to have healing abilities strong enough to make it worth the action used for HP recovery in combat (though of course if death gates get changed, this changes somewhat; one of the reasons you don't need to heal that much is that it's very hard for enemies to down and finish off a character before you get to pick them back up).

[RogueJK]

Celestial Warlocks also work fairly efficiently with occasional in-combat healing, with their Healing Light ability giving them Bonus Action non-spell 60' healing of 1d6 to 5d6 a pop. It's one of the few ways to heal in combat that doesn't interfere with your Actions or your spellcasting (since it doesn't prevent you from casting a leveled spell that same turn, and it doesn't use spell slots).

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, patching up after fight is of course fine. HD does help a lot though - non-healer parties kinda work in 5e. But even in patching up, you have to be very resource efficient; otherwise you won't have combat resources to fight the next fight even if you have the HP to push on. The crux of the issue is that every slot used for healing is a slot not used for combat and thus shoring up one resource leads to a deficiency in another (powerful combat actions).

In practice this trade off isn't as dire as you portray it, if you enter a combat with hit points left on the shelf (still injured) then you're putting yourself and whomever else is injured at a disadvantage the enemy won't have.

Ending a fight as quickly as possible is variable, strategies don't work, dice don't go your way etc. where as healing is reliable by and large and hit points cover the sins that other defenses did not.

That's mostly something like Life Cleric or the one burst use of Paladin's Lay on Hands - it is very rare to have healing abilities strong enough to make it worth the action used for HP recovery in combat (though of course if death gates get changed, this changes somewhat; one of the reasons you don't need to heal that much is that it's very hard for enemies to down and finish off a character before you get to pick them back up).

It isn't rare at all anymore, if it ever was:

-Life Cleric, as in pretty much anything they do

-Paladin, Lay on Hands, Aura of Vitality

-Divine Soul, using Twinned Spell

-Celestial Warlock, upcast Cure Wounds and Healing Light

-Circle of Dreams, Balm of the Summer Court

-Circle of the Shepherd, Unicorn Spirit

-Circle of Stars, Chalice form

-Circle of Wildfire, Enhanced Bond + Cauterizing Flames

-Battle Smith, Arcane Jolt

-Alchemist, Alchemical Savant

-Peace Cleric CD, depending on party formation

-Thief, Healer feat if DM agrees it works with Fast Hands

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Garresh]

Tbh I think its not quite accurate to say more classes are dedicated healers. The #1 rule when addressing healer viability is action economy. More classes have gained access to bonus action healing. These aren't burst heals but good stuff for when you get knocked down and need a quick fix. A lot of the new healer classes still don't compare to pure life cleric. And nova healing is still pretty much limited to only a handful of classes and builds.

But the massive proliferation of low to medium power bonus action heals as even moreso than before reduced the need for a dedicated healer at all. It's a good design direction but a lot of the newer subclasses are just okay. Not great. Not terrible.

[Dork_Forge]

Tbh I think its not quite accurate to say more classes are dedicated healers. The #1 rule when addressing healer viability is action economy. More classes have gained access to bonus action healing. These aren't burst heals but good stuff for when you get knocked down and need a quick fix. A lot of the new healer classes still don't compare to pure life cleric. And nova healing is still pretty much limited to only a handful of classes and builds.

But the massive proliferation of low to medium power bonus action heals as even moreso than before reduced the need for a dedicated healer at all. It's a good design direction but a lot of the newer subclasses are just okay. Not great. Not terrible.

Do you have any examples of where you draw the line for a dedicated Healer? The list I provided was not just bonus action healing, but those with specific healing benefits.

[Garresh]

Do you have any examples of where you draw the line for a dedicated Healer? The list I provided was not just bonus action healing, but those with specific healing benefits.

Yes

...but I still haven't updated it for Tashas. In general though, nothing in Tashas besides twilight domain seems really capable of being a dedicated healer. Everything else either turns healing into something else(Order + Healing Word is interesting) or provides minor healing boosts to take the edge off a bit. It's helpful but not really the focus.

Generally my idea of a dedicated healer though is someone who is capable both of sustained healing, and burst healing to multiple targets. Ideally with minimal use of actions. This should also be while doing other things in combat.

Bleh I really need to update this. Tashas has a lot of interesting side healer features.

[follacchioso]

Can you shuffle the stats, or they need to stay in the order you posted?

If you can shuffle them, I would look at Ranges or Rogues as an option. Put that 17 to DEX and one of the 12 to WIS. You'll be hiding and fighting from a distance most of the time, so the low CON should not penalise you much.

If you have to keep them that way, I would look at a Dhampir race character to get a melee attack from that high CON.

[Eldariel]

It isn't rare at all anymore, if it ever was:

-Life Cleric, as in pretty much anything they do

-Paladin, Lay on Hands, Aura of Vitality

Aura of Vitality is generally not worth your Concentration in combat (unless the combat is very easy in which case you generally should probably spend the action on neutralising the enemy first and then disabling the target afterwards - otherwise you spend one action not disabling enemy [the one used to cast Aura of Vitality] which will likely lead to more damage taken); you can get more from even just Bless and then Aura of Vitality after combat.

I mean, you probably will win a trivial encounter regardless of whether or not you use your resources optimally. But that doesn't make suboptimal use any less suboptimal and it's fairly trivial that:

1. Action to cast Aura of Vitality and rest to disable enemy while bonus action healing

IS LESS OPTIMAL THAN

2. Actions to disable enemy at no resource use and then casting Aura of Vitality and healing afterwards

WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT

The encounter is easy enough that you can defeat it with at-wills at little risk [ergo the case that Aura of Vitality taking your Concentration would not be detrimental - if the encounter is difficult, your Concentration should almost certainly rather be Bless, Spirit Guardians, Banishment, Silence, Summon Celestial or similar depending on the specifics of the encounter].

Because you're using an action to not win the encounter meaning enemy will have time to inflict more damage or negative status effects or negative story effects (e.g. information stolen by Nothic and then handed down). Minimising opponents' actions also trivially minimises the negatives inflicted on the party. If the action couldn't have in any way aided in either preventing negative effects or disabling opposition without using resources, then Aura of Vitality is at best a neutral call compared to using the action to Dodge in a case where an attack is unlikely or whatever (but still runs the risk of losing Concentration on Aura of Vitality to something extremely unlikely compared to just downtime healing).

-Divine Soul, using Twinned Spell

More resources poured in one action does make the action more action-efficient but less resource efficient. Healing-wise, if you're offsetting damage you need both to make it competitive with disabling or buffing effects.

-Celestial Warlock, upcast Cure Wounds and Healing Light

Generally too small to be worth your action in combat.

-Circle of Dreams, Balm of the Summer Court

Generally not worth an action in combat, much the same as Celestial Warlock. Fine for downtime healing and picking downed allies up though.

-Circle of the Shepherd, Unicorn Spirit

Fair, that can make it worth it, especially with lots of creatures and low cost effects like Healing Word. This is due to the AOE and extremely low opportunity cost though.

-Circle of Stars, Chalice form

Eh, not really worth it. If it gave it to all creatures around you the health like Unicorn, maybe.

-Circle of Wildfire, Enhanced Bond + Cauterizing Flames

Enhanced Bond isn't much. Just because an ability boosts healing doesn't make it worth it. Cauterizing Flame is fine due to the low action cost and the decent number but it's not something I'd call an efficient healer - it's more a character that can use a reaction to restore a bit of health.

-Battle Smith, Arcane Jolt

Like the Wildfire Druid, due to the low (or in this case the lack of) action cost, this can indeed be worthwhile but the amount of healing is fairly meager so it doesn't make you much of a healer.

-Alchemist, Alchemical Savant

Again, a bonus to healing isn't enough to make healing a generally desirable action in combat over other alternatives.

-Peace Cleric CD, depending on party formation

Sure, Peace Domain can do some good stuff with it. Again, AOE heals have potential to be valuable in the right circumstances.

-Thief, Healer feat if DM agrees it works with Fast Hands

Sure, but this is more for picking allies up and topping them out than for actual combat healing. Though yes, the lack of resource cost here does make it enticing.


Overall, what I'd like to say about this list is: Just because an ability says "heal extra when healing", that doesn't automatically make the character good enough at healing for that to be the best use of their action much of the time. The healing abilities worth it in combat heal a lot: Lay on Hands, Life Cleric Channel Divinity, Unicorn Totem AOE, Peace Domain Balm of Life, those can, given the right circumstances, heal enough to make it a good use of your action and resources. In many of those cases it helps that they are "devoted resources" - you can't use them for much else anyways (in the case of CDs for instance).

Now though, the bigger category where healing is "okay" is incidental healing. Stuff where healing is a bonus on top of what you get; indeed, what many of those features do. Order Cleric is a good example: you can bonus action give someone an attack and heal them for 1d4+Wis while at it. You wouldn't want to use your bonus action for that over e.g. using Spiritual Weapon but when you add an off-turn attack for the Rogue for instance, it can suddenly be very worth it. Pure healing though? Well, Shepherd was a good mention; when you can have 8+ creatures healed, getting 6 points of healing for everyone out of one action can be sweet. And Peace domain similarly. Twilight too though temp HP is of course more prevention than actual healing.

[Garresh]

One thing I will say in favor of aura of vitality is it's utility in extended combat or situations turning sour very quickly. It's not a burst heal. But it is incidental healing that just takes a round to set up and then is "free" after the first round IF you're not using concentration for other things. For sorcadins it's potentially excellent.

Basically, it does one thing very well. It keeps getting people up off the ground every turn and then sustaining them. Also, I could be mistaken, as I'm more of a sorcadin guy, but the paladin spell list doesn't have a ton of concentration spells besides smites.

If a paladin is in a situation where, for example, 1 person dropped and another is at risk, dropping aura of vitality may be better than heal nova-ing one person. And with quicken spell available to everyone who wants it, it's quite good now.

Also, twin spell IS very good for healing. You just twin your healing words instead. 1 sorcery point for 2 wakeups is grest. I played a cleric sorc and it was a healing and buffing monster. Twinned buffs, then twinned debuffs or twinned healing words as needed. It has nova potential with upcast cure wounds if you're life/divine subclasses, but usually just doubles incidental healing at little cost.

Rest of that assessment seems pretty spot on. I think that spending an action to heal has a place if it's a nova or setting up a chain heal in an extended fight. It's why Life clerics channel divinity is so good(Also stacks with healing word same turn). It's just a risk assessment. Can you remove or disable the threat before you need to heal? Do that. If not, and people are about to drop, and the fight is far from over, go ahead and spend a turn. Just immediately jump back into dealing damage and fighting right after.

Edit: Btw twilight is absurd. The rule of heal as a plan B goes out the window with that subclass. It actually heals more than incoming damage if you can CC or avoid focus fire. Or at least cut it down to an absurdly low amount. It actually breaks the efficiency rule by being BETTER than a lot of damaging options. The reason you don't heal if you can avoid it is because damage outpaces it. Twilight in average game actually outpaces damage. I think in high difficulty campaigns or intelligent tactical enemies it's not AS good. But the numbers are just way too high. Peace healing is in line with other options but it fundamentally breaks the game in another way. Twilight is OP but I'd allow it. Peace is completely broken at level 6.

[Eldariel]

One thing I will say in favor of aura of vitality is it's utility in extended combat or situations turning sour very quickly. It's not a burst heal. But it is incidental healing that just takes a round to set up and then is "free" after the first round IF you're not using concentration for other things. For sorcadins it's potentially excellent.

Basically, it does one thing very well. It keeps getting people up off the ground every turn and then sustaining them. Also, I could be mistaken, as I'm more of a sorcadin guy, but the paladin spell list doesn't have a ton of concentration spells besides smites.

If a paladin is in a situation where, for example, 1 person dropped and another is at risk, dropping aura of vitality may be better than heal nova-ing one person. And with quicken spell available to everyone who wants it, it's quite good now.

Also, twin spell IS very good for healing. You just twin your healing words instead. 1 sorcery point for 2 wakeups is grest. I played a cleric sorc and it was a healing and buffing monster. Twinned buffs, then twinned debuffs or twinned healing words as needed. It has nova potential with upcast cure wounds if you're life/divine subclasses, but usually just doubles incidental healing at little cost.

Rest of that assessment seems pretty spot on. I think that spending an action to heal has a place if it's a nova or setting up a chain heal in an extended fight. It's why Life clerics channel divinity is so good(Also stacks with healing word same turn). It's just a risk assessment. Can you remove or disable the threat before you need to heal? Do that. If not, and people are about to drop, and the fight is far from over, go ahead and spend a turn. Just immediately jump back into dealing damage and fighting right after.

Edit: Btw twilight is absurd. The rule of heal as a plan B goes out the window with that subclass. It actually heals more than incoming damage if you can CC or avoid focus fire. Or at least cut it down to an absurdly low amount. It actually breaks the efficiency rule by being BETTER than a lot of damaging options. The reason you don't heal if you can avoid it is because damage outpaces it. Twilight in average game actually outpaces damage. I think in high difficulty campaigns or intelligent tactical enemies it's not AS good. But the numbers are just way too high. Peace healing is in line with other options but it fundamentally breaks the game in another way. Twilight is OP but I'd allow it. Peace is completely wbroken at level 6.

Well, these both feel like differences in terminology more than anything else. I acknowledge that yoyoing is great: obviously Twin yoyoing is also great. But I wouldn't use Twin Healing Word on two damaged characters to try and make them less damaged.

Similarly, Twilight is great but Temp HP is more of a HP buffer ("X or less doesn't deal damage") than actual healing (restoring lost health) which is why I wouldn't categorise it as a great healer in spite of the effect being ridiculous.

Far as a Paladin Concentration goes, Bless is the big one. Aside from that and Smites, it's the other Aura spells, Crusader's Mantle/Spirit Shroud, Banishment, and Magic/Holy Weapon. And few other 5th level spells that functionally come so late it doesn't really matter much of the time. So...you generally have good alternatives but it's obviously not as expensive as the Concentration of a full caster.


All that said, there are some scenarios where you might wanna heal even if you aren't very good at it (Life Cleric and such heal so much that it's worth it on the back of the amount of effects it undoes alone, but few classes can boast such burst healing ability). Like have an enemy that has a massive burst damage ability or a health-based ability (like Power Word) and an ally that's slightly under the threshold and you aware of these numbers? In that case the ally can survive the burst an extra round or stay out of Power Word range with healing in all likelihood; that's generally worth it over picking them up (or in addition to, provided it is possible). Like it can be compared to healing the whole effect's worth of damage. But that's extremely niche.

[RogueJK]

Far as a Paladin Concentration goes, Bless is the big one. Aside from that and Smites, it's the other Aura spells, Crusader's Mantle/Spirit Shroud, Banishment, and Magic/Holy Weapon. And few other 5th level spells that functionally come so late it doesn't really matter much of the time. So...you generally have good alternatives but it's obviously not as expensive as the Concentration of a full caster.

Don't forget Protection from Evil/Good and Spirit Shroud, plus Compelled Duel in certain situations.

And the subclass-specific spells like Conquest's Fear and Hold Person, Crown's Spirit Guardians, Redemption's Hypnotic Pattern, Vengeance's Hunter's Mark and Haste, et al.


So yes, Paladins definitely have a large number of better options for their Concentration than Aura of Vitality.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes

...but I still haven't updated it for Tashas. In general though, nothing in Tashas besides twilight domain seems really capable of being a dedicated healer. Everything else either turns healing into something else(Order + Healing Word is interesting) or provides minor healing boosts to take the edge off a bit. It's helpful but not really the focus.

Generally my idea of a dedicated healer though is someone who is capable both of sustained healing, and burst healing to multiple targets. Ideally with minimal use of actions. This should also be while doing other things in combat.

Bleh I really need to update this. Tashas has a lot of interesting side healer features.

One thing I will say in favor of aura of vitality is it's utility in extended combat or situations turning sour very quickly. It's not a burst heal. But it is incidental healing that just takes a round to set up and then is "free" after the first round IF you're not using concentration for other things. For sorcadins it's potentially excellent.

Basically, it does one thing very well. It keeps getting people up off the ground every turn and then sustaining them. Also, I could be mistaken, as I'm more of a sorcadin guy, but the paladin spell list doesn't have a ton of concentration spells besides smites.

If a paladin is in a situation where, for example, 1 person dropped and another is at risk, dropping aura of vitality may be better than heal nova-ing one person. And with quicken spell available to everyone who wants it, it's quite good now.

Also, twin spell IS very good for healing. You just twin your healing words instead. 1 sorcery point for 2 wakeups is grest. I played a cleric sorc and it was a healing and buffing monster. Twinned buffs, then twinned debuffs or twinned healing words as needed. It has nova potential with upcast cure wounds if you're life/divine subclasses, but usually just doubles incidental healing at little cost.

Rest of that assessment seems pretty spot on. I think that spending an action to heal has a place if it's a nova or setting up a chain heal in an extended fight. It's why Life clerics channel divinity is so good(Also stacks with healing word same turn). It's just a risk assessment. Can you remove or disable the threat before you need to heal? Do that. If not, and people are about to drop, and the fight is far from over, go ahead and spend a turn. Just immediately jump back into dealing damage and fighting right after.

Edit: Btw twilight is absurd. The rule of heal as a plan B goes out the window with that subclass. It actually heals more than incoming damage if you can CC or avoid focus fire. Or at least cut it down to an absurdly low amount. It actually breaks the efficiency rule by being BETTER than a lot of damaging options. The reason you don't heal if you can avoid it is because damage outpaces it. Twilight in average game actually outpaces damage. I think in high difficulty campaigns or intelligent tactical enemies it's not AS good. But the numbers are just way too high. Peace healing is in line with other options but it fundamentally breaks the game in another way. Twilight is OP but I'd allow it. Peace is completely broken at level 6.

Yeah we fundamentally disagree on somethings, for example I do not consider temp hp healing whatsoever, you aren't healing someone, you are preventing damage.

I also rate Cure Wounds more highly in the beginning of the game.

Aura of Vitality is generally not worth your Concentration in combat (unless the combat is very easy in which case you generally should probably spend the action on neutralising the enemy first and then disabling the target afterwards - otherwise you spend one action not disabling enemy [the one used to cast Aura of Vitality] which will likely lead to more damage taken); you can get more from even just Bless and then Aura of Vitality after combat.

You included Life Cleric in that quote, to clarify I am not considering Aura of Vitality a spell for anyone other than the Paladin and Battle Smith, the expanded lists in Tasha's are optional and a significant buff I do not agree with. That said a Life Cleric makes outstanding use of AoV if they have access to it.

I also see a trend of you discounting bonus action helaing heavily and frankly have no idea why, you in multiple places just say actions, I'm not sure if you're generalising the term or if you think actions are actually being used.

AoV in combat is something you do when things are looking bad and you need to keep your team up. It's what you do when things are looking like a TPK situation and is 100% worth your concentration, what's a Paladin concentrating on otherwise?

I mean, you probably will win a trivial encounter regardless of whether or not you use your resources optimally. But that doesn't make suboptimal use any less suboptimal and it's fairly trivial that:

1. Action to cast Aura of Vitality and rest to disable enemy while bonus action healing

IS LESS OPTIMAL THAN

2. Actions to disable enemy at no resource use and then casting Aura of Vitality and healing afterwards

WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT

The encounter is easy enough that you can defeat it with at-wills at little risk [ergo the case that Aura of Vitality taking your Concentration would not be detrimental - if the encounter is difficult, your Concentration should almost certainly rather be Bless, Spirit Guardians, Banishment, Silence, Summon Celestial or similar depending on the specifics of the encounter].

Because you're using an action to not win the encounter meaning enemy will have time to inflict more damage or negative status effects or negative story effects (e.g. information stolen by Nothic and then handed down). Minimising opponents' actions also trivially minimises the negatives inflicted on the party. If the action couldn't have in any way aided in either preventing negative effects or disabling opposition without using resources, then Aura of Vitality is at best a neutral call compared to using the action to Dodge in a case where an attack is unlikely or whatever (but still runs the risk of losing Concentration on Aura of Vitality to something extremely unlikely compared to just downtime healing).

This very much looks like you're referring to the Cleric primarily, which is not the point I was making, but still I find it hard pressed to dismiss 2d6+5 as a bonus action across an entire combat (and realistically recovery afterwards) just because you lose a single action on the activation.

If the party is injured enough, fast enough, that it seems like any kind of player death or TPK is possible, then AoV is certainly a solid choice. Annecdotally it's the only reason one of my parties didn't suffer 50% losses or a TPK to a Vampire arc boss was because the Druid popped AoV and was able to keep the Fighter and Paladin from dying, them not being dead was worth more than the damage the bonus action stars attack was getting her.

I will say that your style assumes that the race to the bottom is always best won by trying to kill the enemy the fastest, which is fine until it goes wrong, which is when you heal. Yo-yo healing is (imo) not characters particularly RPing, nor is it the best thing to do mechanically.

More resources poured in one action does make the action more action-efficient but less resource efficient. Healing-wise, if you're offsetting damage you need both to make it competitive with disabling or buffing effects.

Encounter specific but Twinned accomplishes that by healing two separate party members. Just because they're both injured doesn't mean that they will both continue to be injured in the same way.

If things are looking rough a Twinned Healing Word allows for cantrip offense still whilst boosting the party. Is HW a good spell for this normally? No, but when Twinned it becomes more viable especially if you're healing people that aren't helpless to damage e.g. a raging barbarian, Fighter with Second Wind unspent etc.

Generally too small to be worth your action in combat.

This is one of those times you're being ambiguous, I listed two things, one is an action, the other is a bonus action and they can be done together in a single turn.

Too small is also a generic statement you can't make, too small when? Most games aren't played in T3 and above, in T1 and T2 an upcast Cure Wounds and 3-5d6 of healing are substiantial portions of a PCs total hp pool.

Generally not worth an action in combat, much the same as Celestial Warlock. Fine for downtime healing and picking downed allies up though.

It's a bonus action non-spell and terrible for downtime healing unless it's all you have. How is this or Helaing Light a bad heal ability in combat?

Fair, that can make it worth it, especially with lots of creatures and low cost effects like Healing Word. This is due to the AOE and extremely low opportunity cost though.

Low opportunity cost? You're not only not making sense, you're being inconsistent. So far the only option you favour is one that requires discreet set up, meanwhile HL and BotSC got panned.

Eh, not really worth it. If it gave it to all creatures around you the health like Unicorn, maybe.

Not worth it? This can turn Healing word into 1d4+Wis and 1d8+Wis both ranged and still only consuming a first level slot and bonus action. How is this not worth it?

What on earth are you requirements for healing to be worth it to you?

Enhanced Bond isn't much. Just because an ability boosts healing doesn't make it worth it. Cauterizing Flame is fine due to the low action cost and the decent number but it's not something I'd call an efficient healer - it's more a character that can use a reaction to restore a bit of health.

It's an extra 4.5 hp on average, again I have no idea what level you're looking at the a d8 of additional healing disappears into the ether.

Cauterizing Flames isn't taken in isolation, it's a factor that keeps up party hp during the encounter in concert with other healing.

Like the Wildfire Druid, due to the low (or in this case the lack of) action cost, this can indeed be worthwhile but the amount of healing is fairly meager so it doesn't make you much of a healer.

On it's own? Not really, but good thing the BS also has access to Cure Wounds and AoV to reinforce that title.

Is it a lot of heals? No, but it's healing that doesn't compromise your damage output to do, which has been a complaint of yours against other heals.

This is meant to stop you getting into trouble as well as healping when you're already in it.

Again, a bonus to healing isn't enough to make healing a generally desirable action in combat over other alternatives.

...What action? At the level this is gained the Alchemist can use their action for an empowered damage cantrip, then use Healing Word for 1d4+8 as a ranged bonus action.

There's also Mass Healing Word and if the DM goes with roll once for everyone like damage, then that's a very significant heal.

Sure, Peace Domain can do some good stuff with it. Again, AOE heals have potential to be valuable in the right circumstances.

The circumstances being that the party is injured...

The Peace Cleric can still Spiritual Weapon for damage or Healing Word for additional heals.

Sure, but this is more for picking allies up and topping them out than for actual combat healing. Though yes, the lack of resource cost here does make it enticing.

This entirely decides on what HP amount you consider 'in combat healing' as it seems to be a very high amount. The heal formula for Healer is a nice proportionate heal in Tier 1 and at least part of T2, especially since a Thief could do it twice a turn, or once and still attack.

Overall, what I'd like to say about this list is: Just because an ability says "heal extra when healing", that doesn't automatically make the character good enough at healing for that to be the best use of their action much of the time. The healing abilities worth it in combat heal a lot: Lay on Hands, Life Cleric Channel Divinity, Unicorn Totem AOE, Peace Domain Balm of Life, those can, given the right circumstances, heal enough to make it a good use of your action and resources. In many of those cases it helps that they are "devoted resources" - you can't use them for much else anyways (in the case of CDs for instance).

This is inherently flawed because you're talking explicitly about actions when the majority of the things listed don't need an action, they use bonuses.

The key to be a good healer (imo) is access to bonus action healing so you can be effiicient at what you're doing or a bonus action attack so you're stil ldoing other things.

Your evaluation is largely moot to me because you seem to have tarred all of those abilities with the same 'eats an action' brush.

Now though, the bigger category where healing is "okay" is incidental healing. Stuff where healing is a bonus on top of what you get; indeed, what many of those features do. Order Cleric is a good example: you can bonus action give someone an attack and heal them for 1d4+Wis while at it. You wouldn't want to use your bonus action for that over e.g. using Spiritual Weapon but when you add an off-turn attack for the Rogue for instance, it can suddenly be very worth it. Pure healing though? Well, Shepherd was a good mention; when you can have 8+ creatures healed, getting 6 points of healing for everyone out of one action can be sweet. And Peace domain similarly. Twilight too though temp HP is of course more prevention than actual healing.

Okay let's do something a little more concrete, what in your estimation is a good amount of healing for levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15? I'd accept either a raw number or a percentage of the targets overall HP pool, ideally both.

Your style very much seems to be kill it faster than it can kill you, and based on your other strategy posts I think that's a reasonable assessment. However it doesn't consider things going wrong really (there was unforeseen circumstances, a trap, particularly bad rolls for the party or an early crit for team monster), nor does it really seem rooted in in-character decision but rather raw optimisation.