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Thread: Dwarf Sorcerer?

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    Default Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Races Of Stone pg 147
    Earth Meditation (Ex): A dwarf sorcerer who takes
    the 9th-level racial substitution level learns to focus his
    meditations on the quiet power of the earth beneath him.
    If the dwarf sorcerer spends his 8 hours of rest and 15
    minutes of concentration to prepare spells while in con-
    tact with the ground, he can add his Constitution bonus
    (if any) to his Charisma score to determine his bonus sor-
    cerer spell slots.
    This benefit replaces the standard sorcererís ability to
    learn a new 4th-level spell at 9th level. From now on, the
    dwarf sorcererís number of 4th-level spells known is one
    fewer than the value shown on Table 3Ė17, page 54 of the
    Playerís Handbook.
    Suppose you wanna build around this. What's your plan?


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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Some combination of fireblood dwarf, Earth Spell and Versatile Spellcaster.

    9 levels in Sorceror is a steep ask, though. That's what, 8 levels with no class features besides spells? Yikes.

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    Earth Spell and dirt in your shoes.

    I'm not sure there's a lot to build around here, to get the most out of this by having high Con and Cha which you'd want anyway. Be a dwarf without a cha penalty like Dream Dwarf or Gold Dwarf. Then deliver the mail as normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Some combination of fireblood dwarf, Earth Spell and Versatile Spellcaster.

    9 levels in Sorceror is a steep ask, though. That's what, 8 levels with no class features besides spells? Yikes.
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    I'd add the blood of siberys acf and mostly dump charisma, maybe 10 or so base and keep it high enough with an item so you can still cast higher level spells. I'd maybe also add stalwart and battle sorcerer and try to make use of the lady's gambit feat with spells / attacks in form of a gish.

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    Probably i would use a battle sorcerer instead of a normal sorcerer because arcane strike seems enough interesting with so many bonus spell slot , using if possible a dragonborn kokobruku instead of a normal dwarf (they are defined dwarflike humanoid but they are smaller of size and with a malus of intelligence instead of charisma) . Basically I would go for a gish build mainly for arcane strike. Another idea could be using divine companion from the complete divine if i remember well as we would have bonus spell slot. Even if we had only one more spell slot for each level we would fill up the limit quite easily and still having some bonus spell slot (at 20 we would only need 1 of 5 1 of 4 1 of 3 of 2 and one of 6 )
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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    I mean, you don't add your two ability scores together. You add your constitution modifier to your charisma score.

    So, at level 20 we are looking at
    Charisma base human 18 sorcerer, +6 item, +5 inherent bonus, +5 bonus from levels, 34 charisma.
    That's bonus spells of
    3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1

    The dwarf is going to have base 16 charisma, +6 item, +5 inherent bonus, +5 from levels, 32 charisma.

    He's going to have 20 constitution base, +6 item, +5 inherent bonus, so 31 constitution for a +10 modifier.
    That puts his charisma modified score at 42, so 8 points higher than the human sorcerer.

    That gives him bonus spells of
    4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2

    So, realistically this class feature gives you 1 extra spell per level across all spell levels, conditional on a situation that the DM can easily take away from you. That's OK.

    And if I was going for this character design I would build a earth/craft based sorcerer who focused on environment manipulation. At low levels you are all about grease and other battle field control spells, but you want to aim for wall of stone and fabricate with the goal of combining the two to create a wide variety of stone structures that the party can make use of.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Stoneblessed give you any room to move here?
    Three levels where you don't advance spellcasting isn't worth the ACF.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Polymorph into something with extra Con and immediately get extra spell slots to work with if you run low. While Eagle's splendor wouldn't increase your spell slots, a bear's endurance would. Because of the extra slots, versatile spellcaster is that much more valuable. And don't forget arcane preparation so you can get sanctified spells if your group uses them.

    By the time you get 9ths you could have a boat load of extra spell slots for the measly cost of a 4th level spell known that you can compensate for with feats if you wanted.

    The immediate benefit of extra spell slots is one of the strengths of a sorcerer as a wizard has to spend 15 min per or 1 hour for all to prepare the slots. As spells cast count against your limit, you should probably save your boosting effects for when you run low on your slot limit because a polymorph does only last a few rounds.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-09-21 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    While stoneblessed definitely doesn't work in a normal built, it may be good in gestalt, especially on a gish that needs to take extra sorcerer levels anyway to fill in lost caster levels from gishy prestige classes. I am thinking swiftblade specifically.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Some combination of fireblood dwarf, Earth Spell and Versatile Spellcaster.

    9 levels in Sorceror is a steep ask, though. That's what, 8 levels with no class features besides spells? Yikes.
    As if Wizard got it any better. I mean, really, they only get one feat at first level that the sorcerer doesn't. Not to mention that sorcerers get a huge amount of spell slots when compared to wizard.

    For some reason, however, Wizard is considered strong if not the strongest class in the game. For the life of me I've never understood why people think sorcerer is worse than wizard. IMHO, they're better.
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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    As if Wizard got it any better. I mean, really, they only get one feat at first level that the sorcerer doesn't. Not to mention that sorcerers get a huge amount of spell slots when compared to wizard.

    For some reason, however, Wizard is considered strong if not the strongest class in the game. For the life of me I've never understood why people think sorcerer is worse than wizard. IMHO, they're better.
    Wizards also get bonus feats at every 5 levels. But that's not the difference, really, because like for Sorcerer and Cleric, common board advice is to prestige out as soon as you can without having to sacrifice caster levels. Wizard, Cleric and Sorcerer have "spells" as their main class feature, and most casting PrCs advance it as well as giving you new powers and class abilities and stuff. Sticking with 9 levels of Sorcerer or Cleric isn't really an attractive way to build your character when you could get to advance your spellcasting and have new features.

    Sorcerer also got hit with the short end of the stick: from the obnoxious rules on spontaneous casters and metamagic, the few spells known and the fact most PrCs and feats seem explicitely made for the Wizard, Sorcerers are slightly less powerful and versatile than Wizards. They are still a powerhouse because they have access to some of the best spells in the game, and compare favourably to many other Tier 2 classes.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    I think Dwarf Sorcerer is a perfectly fine option, but mostly for Dwarf Sorcerer 5, so my recommendation would be to get to that point PrC and then come back for the next 4 levels. I find that with all of this caster classes once you have gone into your main PrC and finished it (so usually past level 15) going back to the base class or taking another PrC does not do much so this sounds like the perfect moment to go for Dwarf Sorcerer 9, if you are going to go straight 9 levels of sorcerer that is when I don't think you are getting much from those levels.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    As if Wizard got it any better. I mean, really, they only get one feat at first level that the sorcerer doesn't. Not to mention that sorcerers get a huge amount of spell slots when compared to wizard.

    For some reason, however, Wizard is considered strong if not the strongest class in the game. For the life of me I've never understood why people think sorcerer is worse than wizard. IMHO, they're better.
    Wizard has class features with few gaps. They have dead levels at 2 and 3, but other than that they have class features for the majority of their progression.

    Level 1, summon familiar, scribe scroll
    Level 2, dead level
    Level 3, dead level
    Level 4, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
    Level 5, Expanded spellbook
    Level 6, Greater Spell Focus
    Level 7, Minor school esoterica
    Level 8, Expanded spellbook
    Level 9, Caster level increase +1
    Level 10, Moderate school esoterica
    Level 11, Expanded spellbook
    Level 12, Caster level increase +2
    Level 13, Major school esoterica
    Level 14, High Arcana
    Level 15, High Arcana
    Level 16, High Arcana
    Level 17, High Arcana
    Level 18, High Arcana
    Level 19, Dead level
    Level 20, Dead level

    4 dead levels across 20 class levels isn't too bad.

    Oh, wait, I forgot that wizards don't just automatically enter master specialist and arcmage by default if no other prestige classes take preference.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Thought about it, I think I got a TO build that might work for it.

    White Dragonspawn Changeling Sorcerer 9/Master Transmogrifist 8/Recaster 3
    1) Racial Emulation
    3) Draconic Reservoir
    6) Reserves of Strength
    9) Storm Bolt

    - Take the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage at 6HD.
    - Take Dwarf Sorcerer ACF at 5th and 9th. You could also take Dragonblood Sorcerer at 4th and 7th.
    - For your recaster spell, take Plant Body.
    - Choose Shambling Mound as one of your favored forms.
    - Cast Plant Body.
    - Alter Self into a Shambling Mound using Reserves of Strength. You'll be able to Alter Self into 8HD forms. You're now Permanently a Shambling Mound.
    - Use Storm Bolt to attack yourself with Lightning every single round you're not resting or casting spells.
    - Prepare your spells. Add your NI Constitution to your Charisma.
    - Enjoy all the bonus spells in the world.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    +18000 Constitution? Good, good.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2021-09-22 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    As if Wizard got it any better. I mean, really, they only get one feat at first level that the sorcerer doesn't. Not to mention that sorcerers get a huge amount of spell slots when compared to wizard.

    For some reason, however, Wizard is considered strong if not the strongest class in the game. For the life of me I've never understood why people think sorcerer is worse than wizard. IMHO, they're better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Wizards also get bonus feats at every 5 levels. But that's not the difference, really, because like for Sorcerer and Cleric, common board advice is to prestige out as soon as you can without having to sacrifice caster levels. Wizard, Cleric and Sorcerer have "spells" as their main class feature, and most casting PrCs advance it as well as giving you new powers and class abilities and stuff. Sticking with 9 levels of Sorcerer or Cleric isn't really an attractive way to build your character when you could get to advance your spellcasting and have new features.

    Sorcerer also got hit with the short end of the stick: from the obnoxious rules on spontaneous casters and metamagic, the few spells known and the fact most PrCs and feats seem explicitely made for the Wizard, Sorcerers are slightly less powerful and versatile than Wizards. They are still a powerhouse because they have access to some of the best spells in the game, and compare favourably to many other Tier 2 classes.
    Exactly. Don't forget that sorcerors are also a level behind in spell level progression, not getting 2nd level spells until 4th level and always being stuck a level behind. Add that to the fact that Charisma is a much weaker stat than Intelligence in 3.5E, because Intelligence also gives you more skill points while Charisma... makes you a little better at a few skills.

    But really, I was referring to the fact that 95% of builds PrC out of the base sorceror after 5th/6th level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    As if Wizard got it any better. I mean, really, they only get one feat at first level that the sorcerer doesn't. Not to mention that sorcerers get a huge amount of spell slots when compared to wizard.

    For some reason, however, Wizard is considered strong if not the strongest class in the game. For the life of me I've never understood why people think sorcerer is worse than wizard. IMHO, they're better.
    It depends on how available copying spells into your spellbook is. If all you have are the 2 spells per level as a wizard it's quite balanced with a sorcerer's spells known. The moment you start adding more than just a few extra spells the sorcerer starts falling behind, especially because they have delayed progression. Personally, I find that increasing their spells known to +2 per level to the highest spell level available does a lot to bridge the gap to end at 9/8/7/6/6/6/6/6/6/6.

    I don't think I can be eloquent enough to explain why wizard versatility is extra powerful other than being able to have situational spells at your beck and call that a sorcerer would have a hard time justifying adding to their repertoire. It's part of the reason why spirit shaman is my favorite caster (not just because of extra spells known shenanigans). You get the best of both worlds, but you do lose the ability to spontaneously cast metamagic without the use of versatile spellcaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    Thought about it, I think I got a TO build that might work for it.

    White Dragonspawn Changeling Sorcerer 9/Master Transmogrifist 8/Recaster 3
    1) Racial Emulation
    3) Draconic Reservoir
    6) Reserves of Strength
    9) Storm Bolt

    - Take the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage at 6HD.
    - Take Dwarf Sorcerer ACF at 5th and 9th. You could also take Dragonblood Sorcerer at 4th and 7th.
    - For your recaster spell, take Plant Body.
    - Choose Shambling Mound as one of your favored forms.
    - Cast Plant Body.
    - Alter Self into a Shambling Mound using Reserves of Strength. You'll be able to Alter Self into 8HD forms. You're now Permanently a Shambling Mound.
    - Use Storm Bolt to attack yourself with Lightning every single round you're not resting or casting spells.
    - Prepare your spells. Add your NI Constitution to your Charisma.
    - Enjoy all the bonus spells in the world.
    How are you getting the actual plant type to use alter self to become a shambling mound? Plant body doesn't actually change your type. It merely gives you some characteristics of the plant type.
    Last edited by Fouredged Sword; 2021-09-22 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Polymorph into something with extra Con and immediately get extra spell slots to work with if you run low. While Eagle's splendor wouldn't increase your spell slots, a bear's endurance would. Because of the extra slots, versatile spellcaster is that much more valuable. And don't forget arcane preparation so you can get sanctified spells if your group uses them.

    By the time you get 9ths you could have a boat load of extra spell slots for the measly cost of a 4th level spell known that you can compensate for with feats if you wanted.

    The immediate benefit of extra spell slots is one of the strengths of a sorcerer as a wizard has to spend 15 min per or 1 hour for all to prepare the slots. As spells cast count against your limit, you should probably save your boosting effects for when you run low on your slot limit because a polymorph does only last a few rounds.
    I'm not sure this interpretation is correct.

    RAW are light on the topic, but Eagle's Splendor as described in the PHB makes it quite clear that a spontaneous caster does not gain new spell slots from the increase in Charisma via the spell. To quote from the description in the D20SRD, "Sorcerers and bards (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spellís effect do increase."

    There's also this tidbit from the PHB: "Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before. "

    This implies that the spell slots must survive for at least 15 minutes so that the sorceror can prepare mentally for the availability of the slots.

    If you have other citations I'm eager to see them, but frankly it appears that any temporary boost that does not survive the required 15 minutes of preparation time each day before casting do not generate additional bonus spell slots for arcane casters.
    Last edited by Feldar; 2021-09-22 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    How are you getting the actual plant type to use alter self to become a shambling mound? Plant body doesn't actually change your type. It merely gives you some characteristics of the plant type.
    Any spell or effect that would affect plant creatures also affects you, for the duration of plant body.
    Isn't the effect "turns into a shambling mound" an effect that would only affect plant creatures? If you're really gonna be a stickler and say it doesn't work, hmm.....

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    21st level Sorcerer Casting, infinite spells, and we even used Stoneblessed in a full casting build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feldar View Post
    I'm not sure this interpretation is correct.

    RAW are light on the topic, but Eagle's Splendor as described in the PHB makes it quite clear that a spontaneous caster does not gain new spell slots from the increase in Charisma via the spell. To quote from the description in the D20SRD, "Sorcerers and bards (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spellís effect do increase."

    There's also this tidbit from the PHB: "Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before. "

    This implies that the spell slots must survive for at least 15 minutes so that the sorceror can prepare mentally for the availability of the slots.

    If you have other citations I'm eager to see them, but frankly it appears that any temporary boost that does not survive the required 15 minutes of preparation time each day before casting do not generate additional bonus spell slots for arcane casters.
    Eagle's splendor is providing an exception. If it were the rule, other items and effects that increase your ability score wouldn't work either.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 179
    Recent Casting Limit: As with wizards, any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcererís or bardís daily limit.
    Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.
    You get spell slots from having a higher score. The rule is that you only regain slots that were used when you rest and concentrate. There is no rule about requiring rest to benefit from bonus spells per day as they were never used in the first place. Power points work the same way, you only regain the power points you lost:

    Quote Originally Posted by XPH, pg 63
    Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind.
    By RAW, bonus spell slots could never be a benefit if they had to be gained after a rest because you can't regain something you never used in the first place.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-09-22 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Eagle's splendor is providing an exception. If it were the rule, other items and effects that increase your ability score wouldn't work either.

    You get spell slots from having a higher score. The rule is that you only regain slots that were used when you rest and concentrate. There is no rule about requiring rest to benefit from bonus spells per day as they were never used in the first place. Power points work the same way, you only regain the power points you lost:

    By RAW, bonus spell slots could never be a benefit if they had to be gained after a rest because you can't regain something you never used in the first place.
    You argue that a temporary boost to a casting ability grants extra spell slots, then you:

    1. Refuse to point out a specific example that supports your case
    2. Cite the absence of any examples supporting your position as proof of your position
    3. Offhandedly disregard a specific example that refutes your position because of its location.
    4. Specifically mudge the terminology to muddy the water. Bonus spells are bonus spell slots.
    5. Cite power points as an example though power points are not part of the Vancian D&D magic system that is clearly being discussed.
    6. You then swap the terminology back for your final argument.
    7. In the same specious point, you use an absurb interpretation but fail to carry it to the logical extreme. (Using your example to the extreme, a spontaneous caster could never gain any spell slots at all because by definition a gained spell slot cannot have been previously used.)


    The only support I can find is that gaining a bonus to Con temporarily boosts your hit points. On the other side of this is clear language from owl's wisdom, eagle's splendor, and fox's cunning that clearly state that the caster does not get bonus spells from the increase from those spells.

    You are correct that specific trumps general, but in this case there is ZERO general supporting your case. Please point out an actual rule citation or example in published rules that support your position.
    Last edited by Feldar; 2021-09-22 at 11:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Wizard has class features with few gaps. They have dead levels at 2 and 3, but other than that they have class features for the majority of their progression.
    ...
    Oh, wait, I forgot that wizards don't just automatically enter master specialist and arcmage by default if no other prestige classes take preference.
    Lack of bluetext notwithstanding, level 20 wouldn't be a dead level if your assumption is they return to base Wizard after finishing Archmage, since Wizard level 5 gives a bonus feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feldar View Post
    You argue that a temporary boost to a casting ability grants extra spell slots, then you:

    1. Refuse to point out a specific example that supports your case
    2. Cite the absence of any examples supporting your position as proof of your position
    3. Offhandedly disregard a specific example that refutes your position because of its location.
    4. Specifically mudge the terminology to muddy the water. Bonus spells are bonus spell slots.
    5. Cite power points as an example though power points are not part of the Vancian D&D magic system that is clearly being discussed.
    6. You then swap the terminology back for your final argument.
    7. In the same specious point, you use an absurb interpretation but fail to carry it to the logical extreme. (Using your example to the extreme, a spontaneous caster could never gain any spell slots at all because by definition a gained spell slot cannot have been previously used.)


    Please point out an actual rule citation or example in published rules that support your position.

    The only one I can find is that gaining a bonus to Con temporarily boosts your hit points. On the other side of this is clear language from owl's wisdom, eagle's splendor, and fox's cunning that clearly state that the caster does not get bonus spells from the increase from those spells.
    1. You have no example to support yours.
    2. I said that the wording supports my reading and the lack of wording to support your reading gives credence to my reading.
    3. It is not a specific example. If it were an example of the rule then any temporary bonus (items like headband of intellect are temporary bonuses) wouldn't give bonus spells.
    4. I don't know what you are referring to. The PHB refers to them as bonus spells, bonus spells per day, and spell slots interchangeably. Is there a reason other than it makes it an easier read to stick to one or the other?
    5. What does vancian have to do with it? I cited multiple places where the terminology supports the same outcome. While it isn't a direct reference to the same system, it shows consistency through 3.5 as a whole.
    6. This is nitpicking something that is interchangeable in meaning. Along with number 4, this is a red herring that distracts from the actual discussion.
    7. Absurd implies it isn't what the text says. You say that the bonus needs to last long enough to last through the 15 min to gain access to those bonus slots. However the text says that those 15 min of concentration allow you to regain spell slots you have used.

    You want me to cite a rule that supports me? I did, in the quotes of the post you quoted. I even gave you page numbers. All you did was give a spell with a specific exception if applied broadly would mean that any temporary bonus to an ability score could never give bonus spells (spell slots). Implication is not a rule. Unless the rules say somewhere (other than a spell text) that you only get your bonus spells (spell slots) after resting, they are received as told by the book: when your score goes up.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Male

    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    How many decent sorcerer ACFs/racial sub-levels can one stack on a sorcerer to make up for the lackluster (lack of) class features you suffer due to no PrCs?

    How about PrCs that progress levels in sorcerer, like legacy champion, with a bit of optimizing in items and such to make up for the lost CLs and spell levels?
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-09-23 at 12:28 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Feb 2021

    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    This is what I got. You can substitute Dwarf Sorcerer 8 & 9 for 2 levels of Earthshaker and that should float your boat.

    This build meshes the Earth and Oneiromancy magics since I'm taking a Dream Dwarf and have the Earth Dreamer PrC. With some feat moving around you can get the Heightened & Earth Spells but I opted against it as a personal choice.

    Hope you enjoy the build :)
    Last edited by Paragon; 2021-09-23 at 12:59 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Apr 2016

    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    1. You have no example to support yours.
    2. I said that the wording supports my reading and the lack of wording to support your reading gives credence to my reading.
    3. It is not a specific example. If it were an example of the rule then any temporary bonus (items like headband of intellect are temporary bonuses) wouldn't give bonus spells.
    4. I don't know what you are referring to. The PHB refers to them as bonus spells, bonus spells per day, and spell slots interchangeably. Is there a reason other than it makes it an easier read to stick to one or the other?
    5. What does vancian have to do with it? I cited multiple places where the terminology supports the same outcome. While it isn't a direct reference to the same system, it shows consistency through 3.5 as a whole.
    6. This is nitpicking something that is interchangeable in meaning. Along with number 4, this is a red herring that distracts from the actual discussion.
    7. Absurd implies it isn't what the text says. You say that the bonus needs to last long enough to last through the 15 min to gain access to those bonus slots. However the text says that those 15 min of concentration allow you to regain spell slots you have used.

    You want me to cite a rule that supports me? I did, in the quotes of the post you quoted. I even gave you page numbers. All you did was give a spell with a specific exception if applied broadly would mean that any temporary bonus to an ability score could never give bonus spells (spell slots). Implication is not a rule. Unless the rules say somewhere (other than a spell text) that you only get your bonus spells (spell slots) after resting, they are received as told by the book: when your score goes up.
    Nothing in anything you provided specifically says that temporary bonuses to a spellcasting ability give bonus spell slots.

    There is no general rule that says a temporary enhancement provides usable bonus spell slots. A simple sentence in the magic section would sort it out. The only specific rules are the ones in the spells.

    There's an implicit assumption that when you're wearing a magical item that boosts your spellcasting statistic that the bonus slots stick around long enough because you're wearing the item long enough, which actually does support your position.

    For that matter, I even agree that it's logical that the temporary boost should provide the slots. The rules just don't say that they do.

    That being said, it's extremely odd that the prerequisite for those items is a spell that says it doesn't provide bonus spells!

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Dwarf Sorcerer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldar View Post
    Nothing in anything you provided specifically says that temporary bonuses to a spellcasting ability give bonus spell slots.

    There is no general rule that says a temporary enhancement provides usable bonus spell slots. A simple sentence in the magic section would sort it out. The only specific rules are the ones in the spells.

    There's an implicit assumption that when you're wearing a magical item that boosts your spellcasting statistic that the bonus slots stick around long enough because you're wearing the item long enough, which actually does support your position.

    For that matter, I even agree that it's logical that the temporary boost should provide the slots. The rules just don't say that they do.

    That being said, it's extremely odd that the prerequisite for those items is a spell that says it doesn't provide bonus spells!
    When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. One of those attributes is bonus spells for spellcasters.

    There are a plenty of magic items that have spells as requirements that only vaguely relate to the effect of the item.

    As for having no rule that says temporary bonuses be treated the same as permanent; I will counter with there being no rule that says to treat them differently in the first place.

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