A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Awful Archetype Combinations

    While studying up on the subclasses that have been implemented in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (available on Steam now, albeit in a hilariously buggy state), I stumbled across the existence of what is quite possibly the worst archetype I have ever seen.

    Behold the metamorph, an official Paizo archetype for the alchemist:
    You lose:
    • Throw Anything
    • Swift alchemy
    • Swift poisoning
    • Instant alchemy
    • THE ENTIRE ALCHEMY CLASS FEATURE, INCLUDING BOMBS, MUTAGEN, AND EVEN EXTRACTS

    For those of you who aren't familiar with the alchemist class, they're half-casters, and extracts are basically their spells. Losing them is a pretty huge deal.

    You gain:
    • The ability to cast some form-altering SLAs a handful of times per day at around the same levels that full casters (or even normal alchemists) get them at, albeit with an extended duration of 1 hour/level instead of 1 minute/level
    • A % chance to negate critical hits and precision damage that increases at certain levels, but never reaches 100%
    • Mutagen (back)
    • Disguise as a class skill

    The progression of those form-altering SLAs is really wonky. You're stuck with just alter self (which provides almost no combat benefits in PF, unlike in 3.5) until level 5, for example, and you only get your second daily usage of your SLA(s) (which all share a pool of uses) at level 4.

    This is what your capabilities look like for your first three metamorph levels:


    That's just SAD (and not the good kind of SAD).

    The metamorph archetype is also incompatible with most other alchemist archetypes, as it touches bombs, mutagen, extracts, Throw Anything, swift alchemy, swift poisoning, instant alchemy, and your class skill list.

    There is, however, a certain archetype that it IS compatible with.

    Behold the blazing torchbearer, an archetype so terrible that N. Jolly's alchemist handbook's rating of it is just a review of the Fullmetal Alchemist series:
    You lose:
    • Brew Potion
    • Poison use
    • 4th-level discovery

    You gain:
    • The ability to use torches like everburning torches, a 110 GP standard adventuring item
    • Spark (a cantrip that sets Fine objects on fire) as an at-will SLA
    • An increased light radius for torches you hold
    • The ability to blind everyone within 10 feet of you AND YOURSELF for one round... once per day
    • The ability to spend a standard action to make your torch ignite a target and deal extra fire damage to it on its next hit... at the risk of blowing yourself up if you don't hit something with it within 1d4 rounds

    By your powers combined, I am...

    Terrible!

    ((I didn't forget getting Disguise as a class skill, but that kind of thing is usually in a class's skill list, not its progression table.))

    And so, I've created this thread to see which archetype combinations (or even just single archetypes) can ruin a class to the greatest degree! If you have any nominations, feel free to submit them in replies.
    Last edited by ATHATH; 2021-09-23 at 09:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Metamorph indeed sucks at low levels (1-4), but starting at 5 it becomes good as you gain more combat-oriented forms and can spend the whole day supernaturally shapeshifted. At 9 it becomes great as you get access to pounce and mimicry, and each form you select lasts all day long on its own. It is essentially what a lot of people thought the Shifter class was going to be.

    Yeah it's a step down from regular alchemist, but if your main goal is to be your party's frontliner with some utility and movement modes, it's fine. You can also become one hell of a scout or spy with abilities like scent and freeze.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-23 at 08:47 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    If you're looking for other really bad archetypes, the Warden archetype for the Ranger trades away basically everything good the ranger has - favored enemy, combat style feats, hunter's bond - for more favored terrain stuff. Don't know if it combines with something that makes it even worse; I haven't checked.

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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    IDK how well it can combine, but the Empyreal Knight archetype trades Divine Grace, perhaps the premier Paladin ability, for ...

    ...

    ... knowledge of the Celestial language. As in, the normal one which you could get with one rank in Linguistics. It's for Paladins who dumped Charisma, I guess?
    Last edited by icefractal; 2021-09-23 at 03:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    IDK how well it can combine, but the Empyreal Knight archetype trades Divine Grace, perhaps the premier Paladin ability, for ...

    ...

    ... knowledge of the Celestial language. As in, the normal one which you could get with one rank in Linguistics. It's for Paladins who dumped Charisma, I guess?
    I'd argue that Summon Monster IX 5+/day and a flying mount actually makes you a bit stronger than a normal paladin, and they keep all their spellcasting and smiting too.

    With that said, if you want to run around summoning stuff, I would just be a Herald Caller cleric instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    IDK how well it can combine, but the Empyreal Knight archetype
    If you read the entire archetype instead of just the first paragraph, then you see it also gains a decent amount of resistance to elements and assorted nastiness, and Summon Monster as an SLA (culminating in its ninth-level version), and a free celestial template and wings on his mount.

    Overall it's not amazing, but it clearly isn't awful either.
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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Summon Monster is nice, but it's three levels behind what a Summoner or summon-oriented caster has, and only usable Cha/day (meaning that if you're getting much use from it, you're losing out significantly on Divine Grace). 1st level summons at 4th level are just not impressive.

    Regular Paladins get a Celestial mount too, it's just a few levels later. Wings are nice though.

    The Celestial Heart bonuses are the hardest to compare directly, but you're giving up Mercies for them - so it depends on whether the party already has sufficient healers. They're nice, but IMO not as good as Divine Grace. But if you were trading Divine Grace for Celestial Heart and kept Mercies, I'd consider it a more reasonable trade.

    I don't care about the 20th level ability because it's rare that campaigns even reach 20th level, even more rare that they spend more than the last session there. And also the stuff you get, while it would be impressive at an earlier level, is no big deal by 20th level standards.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2021-09-23 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    I've always found the Unlettered Arcanist archetype for Arcanist to be very unappealing. You give up access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to instead use the Witch spell list. I haven't spent too much time looking at the Witch spell list. But I really like the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and I don't want to lose it. So that's a hard pass for me.

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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Sapper Rogue will always be top-tier as far as garbage archetypes go. Let's go over these one at a time:

    Destructive Dismantle (Ex): A sapper is able to quickly breach obstacles. Using a combination of engineering, explosives, alchemical reagents, and sheer bloodymindedness, she can deal up to 10 points of damage per sapper level upon an object once per day, ignoring the object’s hardness. She might crack open a stone wall with an explosive charge, or collapse a ceiling by tunneling through its supports. This ability requires 1d4+1 hours of preparation, so it can be used only on immobile and unresisting objects. This ability replaces trapfinding.
    It takes 1d4+1 hours to use. It's only usable once per day. It deals 10 damage per rogue level to an object. The single solitary upside is that you can do this while butt naked in an antimagic field - no tools or weapons or spells needed, you just pull a small explosion out of your ass somehow. In exchange, you've given up the ability to disarm magical traps as a rogue...on a rogue archetype that's kinda supposed to be a breaking-and-entering expert.

    If you really wanna understand how much this sucks, imagine if you spent the hour attacking it with a heavy mace. Assuming that isn't automatically shut down from damaging a wall at all, and assuming you have Str 12, you're doing to be dealing 1d8+1 against an object with Hardness 8. That means you're dealing 1 point of damage every 8 attacks you make. That means in order for this to outdamage Destructive Dismantle, you need to make 80 hits per rogue level in less than 2 hours. Let's assume one attack per round, and you only miss on a nat 1. It's possible we could bring iteratives into this, but let's not. It's possible there's a rule somewhere that says you auto-hit stationary unattended objects, but let's not look. Let's just attack. Objects are crit-immune so our damage isn't boosted that way either.

    Over the course of 2 hours, you will have 1200 rounds, for 1200 attacks. You hit on 95% of those, or 1140 hits. You deal damage on 1/8th of hits, so 142.5 damage over the course of 2 hours. That's Somebody with an 8 gp Simple Weapon and Str 12 who's able to put out more damage than a Sapper Rogue 14. Heck, the sapper rogue might take 3/4/5 hours instead! Alright but what if this is one of those stupid epic games and we're dealing with a Sapper that deals 1000 damage with their little explosion and blows down a couple walls at once? Well, if the same Str 12 person was wielding a Earthbreaker instead of a heavy mace, now they're dealing 2d6+1. Now they have deal 35 damage over the course of 36 attacks. That same 1140 hits is now dealing 1108 damage.

    This is still a 1st lvl character with Str 12 and a non-magic non-MW weapon.

    Destroying objects isn't that hard.

    Sapping (Ex): At 2nd level, a sapper gains a +4 bonus on Perception or Disable Device checks to find or disable traps. She also grants a +4 bonus when using the aid another action to assist with Strength checks to lift gates, bend bars, or force open doors. However, the sapper is focused, so it takes her a full-round action to complete any aid another action. This ability replaces her 2nd-level rogue talent.
    You give up a rogue talent. In exchange, you get a slightly better bonus than Trapfinding would've given you at this level, but worse than Trapfinding would've given you by mid-levels. You can also use Aid Another to help Strength checks more efficiently, in exchange for it being harder in the action economy. Oh yeah, and you haven't gotten back the part of trapfinding that let you deal with magic traps.

    Fence (Ex): At 4th level, a sapper loots a dungeon or other adventuring complex of its mundane goods and sells them to her various contacts. These mundane goods include things like brass fittings, stewpots, scrap metal, and so on. The sapper automatically loots this junk while in the dungeon, and must spend 24 uninterrupted hours selling the objects in town. She shares a portion of the proceeds with the adventurers; the amount typically equals 1d10 gp per sapper level per dungeon. This ability replaces her 4thlevel rogue talent.
    Leveling up generally takes ~14 encounters. Assuming every single encounter is its own dungeon, and you immediately return to town, you're getting ~77 gp / rogue level every rogue. That's an extra ~14630 gp by 20th level. That's 1.6625% your WBL, if every single encounter was its own dungeon and you took a full day off to go sell junk in town.


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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Sapper Rogue will always be top-tier as far as garbage archetypes go.
    ... Wow, yeah, that kinda blows something like Torchbearer out of the water. Nice (or un-nice?) find.
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    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Agreed on sapper being bad, when your whole archetype can be surpassed with an adamantine dagger something has gone wrong somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Summon Monster is nice, but it's three levels behind what a Summoner or summon-oriented caster has, and only usable Cha/day (meaning that if you're getting much use from it, you're losing out significantly on Divine Grace). 1st level summons at 4th level are just not impressive.

    Regular Paladins get a Celestial mount too, it's just a few levels later. Wings are nice though.

    The Celestial Heart bonuses are the hardest to compare directly, but you're giving up Mercies for them - so it depends on whether the party already has sufficient healers. They're nice, but IMO not as good as Divine Grace. But if you were trading Divine Grace for Celestial Heart and kept Mercies, I'd consider it a more reasonable trade.

    I don't care about the 20th level ability because it's rare that campaigns even reach 20th level, even more rare that they spend more than the last session there. And also the stuff you get, while it would be impressive at an earlier level, is no big deal by 20th level standards.
    1st level summons at 4th are indeed weak, but you're still a paladin - you don't have to hide behind them, you largely want them to be flanking buddies and trapspringers and such. There's even some utility in there, e.g. summoning a lantern archon at 8 to translate for you or a Hound Archon at 10 to counter an enemy that can dominate the party like a vampire.

    Do I think it's the most powerful paladin archetype, of course not (Sacred Servant takes that one imo) - but can it do things other ones can't, I'd say yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I've always found the Unlettered Arcanist archetype for Arcanist to be very unappealing. You give up access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to instead use the Witch spell list. I haven't spent too much time looking at the Witch spell list. But I really like the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and I don't want to lose it. So that's a hard pass for me.
    UA is indeed a downgrade; Witch list with no patrons or hexes does mean you take quite a hit.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xei_Win_Toh View Post
    If you're looking for other really bad archetypes, the Warden archetype for the Ranger
    Yep, that one sucks, no argument there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I've always found the Unlettered Arcanist archetype for Arcanist to be very unappealing.
    That's fairly bad for an arcanist, but it's pretty good as a one-level dip because it gives you a free familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Sapper Rogue will always be top-tier as far as garbage archetypes go.
    OMG is this a joke? Because the archetype is even worse than you claim! Get this: it has a +4 bonus to aid another on strength checks to open doors! Isn't that amazing? Also, it gets a money bonus because it automatically does things that PCs would do anyway, and ears a whopping 22 gp per dungeon at level four! Or at level ten, this amazing bonus gives a free 55 gp for each dungeon!
    Oh this is SO overpowered I think we should ask the devs for errata to dial it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    ... Wow, yeah, that kinda blows something like Torchbearer out of the water. Nice (or un-nice?) find.
    What, the Torchbearer feat? That one's pretty nice actually, you gain a free support character like a bard or buffing-alchemist with your party. Sure it's a bit squishy but it's good value for a feat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    OMG is this a joke? Because the archetype is even worse than you claim! Get this: it has a +4 bonus to aid another on strength checks to open doors! Isn't that amazing? Also, it gets a money bonus because it automatically does things that PCs would do anyway, and ears a whopping 22 gp per dungeon at level four! Or at level ten, this amazing bonus gives a free 55 gp for each dungeon!
    Oh this is SO overpowered I think we should ask the devs for errata to dial it back.
    I mentioned those things as well. The buff to aid another on specific Str checks was apparently considered so powerful that they had to nerf your ability to aid another by making it take longer to use. And the gold thing I mentioned as well, but I'll reiterate: if every monster you fight for your entire career has its own dungeon, and you return to town after every single fight, you will end up earning about 15k by the time you hit 20th level. That's effectively turning three-quarters of a year into downtime days, all to get +1.6% of your WBL. To clarify: if you craft a single 30k item, that will help your pocketbooks exactly as much as this Sapper ability, and it'll only take up 30 days instead of 280 to do so. And that's still assuming every single fight is a dungeon and every single dungeon means going back to town. It's absolute worthless nonsense.


    What, the Torchbearer feat? That one's pretty nice actually, you gain a free support character like a bard or buffing-alchemist with your party. Sure it's a bit squishy but it's good value for a feat.
    As this is a thread about archetypes, they're probably talking about the archetype Blazing Torchbearer mentioned in the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Behold the blazing torchbearer, an archetype so terrible that N. Jolly's alchemist handbook's rating of it is just a review of the Fullmetal Alchemist series:
    You lose:
    • Brew Potion
    • Poison use
    • 4th-level discovery

    You gain:
    • The ability to use torches like everburning torches, a 110 GP standard adventuring item
    • Spark (a cantrip that sets Fine objects on fire) as an at-will SLA
    • An increased light radius for torches you hold
    • The ability to blind everyone within 10 feet of you AND YOURSELF for one round... once per day
    • The ability to spend a standard action to make your torch ignite a target and deal extra fire damage to it on its next hit... at the risk of blowing yourself up if you don't hit something with it within 1d4 rounds


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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    As this is a thread about archetypes, they're probably talking about the archetype Blazing Torchbearer
    Fair enough. I'd consider that because its blindness ability is an area effect with no saving throw, and that is pretty good. Since many campaigns don't really give time for crafting, and poison use is pretty bad anyway, you effectively trade only one discovery for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Fair enough. I'd consider that because its blindness ability is an area effect with no saving throw, and that is pretty good. Since many campaigns don't really give time for crafting, and poison use is pretty bad anyway, you effectively trade only one discovery for that.
    Blindness is 1/day standard that auto-blinds everybody within 10 ft of the torchbearer (including themselves) for 1 round. The single daily use, the action economy limit, the lack of range, the limited duration, and the fact that it's not ally-friendly all overwhelm the "no-save" and "AoE" portions for me. It's a melee-range AoE and it's not even that big. Blinded sucks, but it doesn't suck that much. Explosive Torch is an okay damage buff that doesn't have limited usage, but it takes a standard action to activate (taking away your ability to make an extra attack that probably deals more damage than the explosive torch would have), and there's a small risk of hurting yourself.

    I think if you're playing a campaign where poison and crafting are never really worthwhile, and you think you can get some real mileage out of the extra torch range, torch duration, and torch damage...it's maybe worth a single discovery?


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    Metamorph ain't that bad actually. Monstrous Physique at hour per level durations is quite good.

    It's best to think of Metamorph as its own class though, not as an Alchemist archetype. It's like Shifter, but better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    The progression of those form-altering SLAs is really wonky. You're stuck with just alter self (which provides almost no combat benefits in PF, unlike in 3.5) until level 5, for example, and you only get your second daily usage of your SLA(s) (which all share a pool of uses) at level 4..
    Other people have discussed the joy which is monstrous physique. But before you get to that level….

    If you are a metamorph you will build as a melee. You have pretty much nothing int dependent.

    So alter selfed into a Tabaxi you have…..
    Claw claw bite attack routine (all appear to be primary)
    +6 strength (2 from alter self, 4 from mutagen)
    40 move
    Dark vision
    Scent
    AC 16+ dex (chain shirt and mutagen)
    4+ int skills (so like a monk or Barbarian)
    2 good saves
    Oddly enough, you still have Brew Potion with a note that says it ignores prerequisites. You can’t actually make any potions yourself without extracts, but you can cooperate with a party caster.

    L2 you get one of (Familiar, elemental resistance, extra hand (especially if it can hold a buckler, not debating that raw but I think it can, alternately it could hold a long spear and you could free action grab it with one of your claws after your full attacks for AOOs with a 2handed reach weapon))
    L3 light fortification

    That’s a long way from the worst melee in the game. I’d call it fully playable at most tables.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-09-24 at 12:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    So alter selfed into a Tabaxi you have…..
    Claw claw bite attack routine (all appear to be primary)
    Okay, I've recently learned that most of the benefits of the Alter Self spell in PF come from it being a spell from the Polymorph subschool. The reason I rated Metamorph so poorly was because I had incorrectly assumed that Alter Self (and the Monstrous Physique line) only applied the effects listed in its description: a different appearance, a +2 to either STR or DEX, and possibly darkvision, low-light vision, scent, and/or a swim speed. The stuff about adding natural attacks (like it did in 3.5) is tucked away in the description of the polymorph subschool.

    Well, that's a bit of egg on my face.
    Last edited by ATHATH; 2021-09-26 at 01:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Fair enough. I'd consider that because its blindness ability is an area effect with no saving throw, and that is pretty good. Since many campaigns don't really give time for crafting, and poison use is pretty bad anyway, you effectively trade only one discovery for that.
    The lack of a saving throw on the blindness is pretty nice, especially if you build around it... but you can only use it once per day and it only lasts for one round when used, so you can't really build much around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Is this a good OJEBUWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES, or a bad OJFBUEWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    "Oh no, I'm bleeding out of my eyes...it's only now that I see that the delivery fee isn't a substitute for tipping your pizza guy!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Arguss View Post
    "No" means "yes".
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    My other idea was to be a troglodyte were-cockroach and just smell bad in people's squares.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    The best part about the sapper's ability is how it says "A sapper is able to quickly breach obstacles." and then concludes with it taking around three hours to use. I can only imagine this in a group.

    After days of travel the group finally reaches the haunted mansion. Upon further inspection, it seems in suprisingly good shape, maybe getting in could take a while.
    "Sam, you're up. Breaking and entering is your game, right?"
    "*cracks fingers* Ah yes, finally a real challenge. Let me take a look and we'll be in in a jiffy." Sam wanders off giggling madly.
    "Guys, is this a good idea? You know what happened last time..."
    An hour later. "Sam, still at it?"
    Sam stares intently at the walls.
    "Sam?"
    *staring intensifies*
    "SAM!"
    "What? Oh, right. There. See that? I'll just rig that up and..."
    "Sure, you do that. We'll look around in the meantime, alright?"
    "Sure, sure, whatever."
    Another hour passes. "So, Hank got bored and kinda just kicked the door in, you coming?"
    Sam fiddles with some unspeakable things from the depths of a handy haversack.
    "Guess not. Alright guys, Sam's still busy, let's go."
    Another hour passes and the group gets out with their haul. Sam seems to be almost finished.
    "Yo Sam, we're actually done here. Wanna get a drink?"
    "Just a minute..."
    "You sure?"
    "JUST. A. MINUTE."
    The group shrugs.
    A short while later, Sam walks up to them, a fuse in hand. "Finally done. Okay, cover your ears."
    "But we're already..."
    "Yeah, yeah, you're bored, but you'll see the wait was worth it."
    "No, you see, we..."
    "ART IS AN EXPLOSION!" The mansion, rigged in every way imaginable by now, just explodes.
    Sam, giggling madly, wanders into the smoking ruins.
    The group looks at each other. "Every goddamn time..." and goes back to town.
    In the distance, they hear Sam's voice echoing "A-HA! A perfectly servicable silver spoon! Told you it's worth it!"
    Last edited by Arkain; 2021-09-26 at 12:05 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    "Hank got bored and kinda just kicked the door in" is definitely a mood

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Okay, I've recently learned that most of the benefits of the Alter Self spell in PF come from it being a spell from the Polymorph subschool. The reason I rated Metamorph so poorly was because I had incorrectly assumed that Alter Self (and the Monstrous Physique line) only applied the effects listed in its description: a different appearance, a +2 to either STR or DEX, and possibly darkvision, low-light vision, scent, and/or a swim speed. The stuff about adding natural attacks (like it did in 3.5) is tucked away in the description of the polymorph subschool.

    Well, that's a bit of egg on my face.
    I mean it's still not great early on. At level 1 , you get to be awesome for 1 hour/day basically, so you'd better hope your fights happen in that window. If they don't, you're essentially relying on your mutagen to carry you until you can rest for the night. But if you do have a natural weapon of your own without shapeshifting then that might be enough.

    At levels 2-3 things start to look up. You still can't shift for long, but you get much more melee power thanks to getting your first Discovery. Tentacle is really nice because not only does it give you a natural attack you can use with your mutagen-enhanced physique, it comes with the grab ability which is pretty powerful at these levels. And as a Metamorph you're definitely designed to be a Hyde-style frontliner so you likely have strong physical stats even before the mutagen.

    The other strong discovery option is the tumor familiar, which can get you all kinds of useful stuff - a flanking buddy with Mauler, a scout with Infilitrator, a loremonkey with Sage, or even just a standard familiar with a useful ability like a Hedgehog's will save bonus.

    Once you hit 4+ though it takes off into Shifter+ territory as you can cover 8+ hours of adventuring time with your transformations.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-26 at 07:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Awful Archetype Combinations

    Every time I read sleuth(investigator) I wonder if they just forgot to finish writing the class.

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