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Thread: Proficiency Gating
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2021-10-02, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
The DC for the riddle is 20 hard, maybe 25 very hard because it does require knowing an exact specific thing. It's the same for everyone. The proficient in history character has a chance of knowing. The non-proficient is very unlikely but could still know for the DC 20. He doesn't know the history of the country, but he may know that one specific fact - he saw it on Jeopardy, it was in a crossword he did once, he has an acquaintance from that country who was fascinated by the incident and spoke to him about it. The d20 roll determines if that's the case. If the DC is 25 then the proficient character might know and only an absolute genius not proficient character (Intelligence score of 20) might recall the information from somewhere.
For the math puzzle the DC is lower. It's difficult so DC 15.
The thing is, while DCs of 25 and 30 are possible to have in 5E, the game encourages they be in the 10-15 range with the occasional 20. PCs are supposed to have a chance of success. I'm aware of the infamous incidents of low level modules having DC 30 tasks. It's an inference to me of a built in railroad telling the DM do not let the PC do this, ever. Still, DCs of 25 and 30 can be legit. It's a question of is the Thing really that difficult, but then we get into the territory of the issue I promised up front what this thread was not.
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2021-10-02, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
I wasn't talking about success. I was talking about getting to use that thing they want to be good at.
And as Frogreaver points out, it's also versilititude breaking (IMO) when 3 randos can succeed where a supposed specialist cannot.
I don't know why you're so quick to accept the OP's experiences as hard fact that "a lot of DMs do this" and are so equally quick to reject our experiences that "it does happen", and our solution has generally improved our games.Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
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2021-10-02, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
Here are my thoughts:
Instead of gating, manage the rolls differently. You get the same effects (specialists can be effective) without the downsides (telling people "no you can't").
The threshold question before any check is called for (remember, players don't call for checks) is "are there meaningful chances for both interesting failure and success for this action?" And that has a spectrum of answers.
No, success isn't meaningful or plausible by anyone: Don't roll, auto failure.
No, failure isn't meaningful or plausible for anyone: Don't roll, auto succeed.
Success is guaranteed, but there are varieties of success: DC 0 check with degrees of success, using group-designated "point person" as narration conduit.
Failure is guaranteed, but there are varieties of failure: Degrees of failure check. Depending on the consequences, this could be one of the cases below, just without a success condition.
Yes, both success and failure are meaningful and plausible for at least one PC: This one has four sub-variants:
1. Consequences are meaningful individually. Everyone succeeds or fails alone. --> Roll individual checks.
2. Consequences are meaningful for the group, and the performance of the group depends on the aggregate performance of the individuals. --> Roll group check (ie 50% must succeed)
3. Consequences are meaningful for the group and one success is enough. The fiction demands that only one person is able to work on the task. --> Group decides who undertakes the task. Individual check.
4. Consequences are meaningful for the group, one success is enough, and more than one person can work on the task. --> Group decides who runs point and represents the group. Individual check at advantage (automatic Help action).
At no point is a dogpile roll or a fiction-breaking roll possible. Because either everyone is involved or the group has chosen one person on which to depend. And they're going to pick the person that fits the fiction best. Or at least if they don't, that's their fault. If they like the "proficiency == training" model, they can choose the guy with proficiency. If they prefer the "aggregate modifier is all that matters" model, they can pick the guy with the highest modifier. Most of the time, those two cases are the same.
As a note, those first two "no roll" categories cover the vast majority of all attempted tasks in my experience. Most Intelligence (History|Arcana|Nature) checks fall either into the degrees of success case or the "one success is enough/more than one person can try" case. Personally, the ability to retry either means that the consequences weren't meaningful (ie you should have skipped the check) or that you've paid the consequence for failing the first time. If the only consequences was time (and time was meaningful, which it isn't always), then at that point they have a choice--automatically succeed at the cost of 10x the normal time or try something else/a different route. At no point should "you fail but can try again without meaningful consequences" be an option. Every check, whether successful or failed, should noticeably change the state of the game. Otherwise you should have skipped the check, because it was a waste of everyone's table time.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2021-10-02 at 10:49 AM.
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2021-10-02, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
Okay, but we have two characters who have the same end bonus. One due to high Int, the other due to moderate Int plus proficiency. My question was, how do I set a DC so that the proficient PC has a greater chance of success, if they both have the same +X in the end?
I know your preferred way of playing is to not do that. They both have +X, they both have the same chance to succeed. That's great, I don't want to tell you you're wrong (I don't think you are wrong at all). But I want to make the distinction because I and my players all see proficiency to mean "specialized aptitude" and it feels intuitively right to us that in at least some cases that special aptitude will provide an edge over the generalized ability of a high ability score. If there's a way to highlight this distinction without prof-gating, I'm all ears.
Right, and most of the time I don't worry about proficiency and just let everyone roll, assuming it makes sense that more than one person can. It's not about that. It's about creating that shine moment.
Side note, aren't passive scores a form of gating? If I want to determine if two PCs hear a noise, and I look at their Passive Perception and one PC exceeds the DC and one doesn't, and I tell one PC he hears something but the other PC doesn't (or has to roll), have I gated? What if what grants the first PC that automatic success is that he's proficient in Perception?
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2021-10-02, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
No, its a passive check. Gating is when you decide a roll can't take place because the thing is "impossible." And tbc I'm fine with 'gating' as such, I just think that if you're going to gate something you need to have a justification for why its impossible. And even pushing the definition of 'proficiency' very far and making a lack of proficiency equal to a lack of training, I don't think you can basically ever prove that something is impossible on the basis of a lack of proficiency.
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2021-10-02, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
Literally impossible, or just so unlikely that it's virtually impossible? Because D&D only works in 5% increments. Once something drops below a 5% chance, you start sliding toward impossible. Where do you draw the line?
If you make a Hide check and get a result of 30, and the highest I could ever get on a Perception check is 29, it is literally, mechanically impossible for me to perceive you. But why would it be? I mean, literally? You're still just hidden, only exceptionally well so compared to my ability to see you. It's more reasonable to say that the chances have dropped so low at that point that even if D&D had the resolution to handle it, it's probably not worth it for me to roll. DC "no" is often just a rounding operation.
This edition is full of language like "eh, if the chances are so low that you (the DM) feel that it's just not going to happen, just say no" (and the reverse for "just say yes"). Gating by proficiency or any other metric is just an extension of that.
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2021-10-02, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
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2021-10-02, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-02, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
You don't and clearly your desire to do so is Doing It Wrong(TM).
It sounds like you're trying to come up with a mechanical justification other than the tool already given (advantage) to skew the odds in favor of one character over another for character background reasons. I guess at that point, I'd just prefer realizing it should be DM fiat automatic success for the player in question. I don't need to justify my DM fiat with another DM fiat of applying proficiency gating. I've already decided which character knows the answer, no need to also gate it behind a roll.
Also I don't use checks for (admittedly rare) riddles. Those are all about player skill as far as I'm concerned. That's despite hating them as a player, because my riddle player skill is low.
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2021-10-03, 03:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proficiency Gating
I don't have my books on me right now but I'm pretty sure in the how to play part at the beginning of the PHB it allows for circumstantial bonuses on rolls. So you can just hand out a flat bonus to a PC if you want. You have to judge whether a flat bonus or advantage makes more sense.