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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Knife Throwing Build

    Hey Playground,

    I'm looking for other ideas to incorporate besides the two main PrCs (that I know of) for this concept: Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade. As well as classes, different kinds of knives to throw, maybe even figuring out how to throw larger sized knives/daggers. Is there a way to incorporate TWF so you're throwing a full attack with both hands? Things like that. Thanks.

    Oh yeah, I'd prefer to go human, but if there's a way to get extra hands throwing knives, the more the merrier.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Well depending on your commitment to human there is the whisperknife prestige class. You need to be a halfling though.

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well depending on your commitment to human there is the whisperknife prestige class. You need to be a halfling though.
    Good looking. I'll have to mull it over. Going halfling loses the human bonus feat, which can hamper PrC entry. Requiring sneak attack and 4 feats means fighter with a Rogue dip or something comparable; otherwise the earliest entry for a straight Rogue is 10th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger
    A bunch of good stuff in there. At first glance there's a bunch of good stuff I'll have to come back through more thoroughly sometime this weekend.

    I'm actually trying to base this build somewhat off of a character in an old western, and when I do play him I'll be working on the DM to allow him to have a Hammer of Thunderbolts that's actually a small warhammer, not a large.
    Last edited by RNightstalker; 2021-09-24 at 08:24 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    My alternate suggestion: slap Half-Ogre(/Half-Minotaur) template on a Human, max your Str, take the Brutal Throw feat, enter the Hulking Hurler PrC, use Meteor Strike trick to throw Large-sized Manyfang Dagger; then - go into the War Hulk PrC for Str bonus

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Soul knife isnít a bad way to go. And itís a base class so 1-20 and itís damage scales as you lvl up and you get to throw said mind blades (also you get to enchant the blades)

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    I'm actually trying to base this build somewhat off of a character in an old western, and when I do play him I'll be working on the DM to allow him to have a Hammer of Thunderbolts that's actually a small warhammer, not a large.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by AceDragonKing View Post
    Soul knife isnít a bad way to go. And itís a base class so 1-20 and itís damage scales as you lvl up and you get to throw said mind blades (also you get to enchant the blades)
    Complete psionic has the double weapon mindblade feats that function as the exotic weapon proficiency feat. This let's you qualify for exotic weapon master which has some interesting stunts.

    4 levels give you a +1 magic weapon (as defined by DMG so technically can be enhanced normally when dumping SK levels) that can't be permanently sundered and 30 ft range increment which matches a javelin. 5th level let's you full attack with all your attacks and you get a 1d10 (2d8 enlarged) throwable 2h weapon or you can stick with the 1d6 to TWF with them. Free Draw would also let you retrain the Quickdraw feat from master thrower level 1, and Throw Mindblade let's you do the same thing with the Throw Anything feat from BsB.

    A human soulknife could get all the feats necessary to qualify for master thrower and bloodstorm blade at first level. I'd suggest getting Brutal throw and power attack

    5 levels of War Mind gives you a neat combo with thunderous throw. You can hit some one with a ranged attack and damage 2 adjacent squares that you threaten. This can double up with master thrower's Two With One Blow trick.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    For a psionic thrower, I'd be more inclined to do a build using the Telekinetic Boomerang power than a build using Soulknife.

    Kineticist, Psychic Warrior, and War Mind all have native access to Telekinetic Boomerang. Kineticist gets it at 5th level, Psychic Warrior at 7th, and War Mind at 6th (ECL 11). Other classes can gain access via the Expanded Knowledge feat, but not before 9th level.

    Psychic Warrior and War Mind both also have native access to the Perfect Archery power. Psychic Warrior gets it at 4th, and War Mind at 4th (ECL 9). Other classes can gain access via the Expanded Knowledge feat, but not before 6th level.

    If you use a Wisdom-based manifester, the Zen Archery feat could be beneficial. Some Wisdom-Based manifesters are Ardent, Psychic Warrior, and War Mind. If you don't mind being a goody-two-shoes, Intuitive Attack could be used instead of Zen Archery.

    Alternately, the Brutal Throw feat would be another way of eliminating the need for Dexterity. And Brutal Throw leads right into Power Throw.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    One more possibility: a Sorcerer (or Warmage) with the Whirling Blade spell (if possible - use it with Crescent Knives)
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2021-09-25 at 11:04 AM.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    Good looking. I'll have to mull it over. Going halfling loses the human bonus feat, which can hamper PrC entry. Requiring sneak attack and 4 feats means fighter with a Rogue dip or something comparable; otherwise the earliest entry for a straight Rogue is 10th.
    Strongheart halfling can get you a bonus feat, then just dipping a level of fighter or swashbuckler (anything that gives you a bonus feat) allows you to access at level 6, but if you drop rogue for sneak attack fighter even doing entry at level 5 is possible.
    Last edited by holbita; 2021-09-25 at 10:38 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

    The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by holbita View Post
    Strongheart halfling can get you a bonus feat, then just dipping a level of fighter or swashbuckler (anything that gives you a bonus feat) allows you to access at level 6, but if you drop rogue for sneak attack fighter even doing entry at level 5 is possible.
    Something like this?
    It looks feasible. It's The better if Quickdraw is retrained. The build goes either direction from 5th.

    Strongheart halfling
    Halfling racial weapon proficiency: EWP Warsling
    Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

    1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
    2. Dirty Fighter, 1d6, Hit-and-Run Tactics


    3. Dirty Fighter, 1d6, Quickdraw

    4. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
    5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
    6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus warsling

    7. Bloodstorm Blade, Returning attacks, Throw anything
    8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat
    Last edited by bean illus; 2021-09-25 at 06:47 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

    The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.
    Do they have Strongheart halflings on the Talenta Plains, or is the boomerang an exotic weapon?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Do they have Strongheart halflings on the Talenta Plains, or is the boomerang an exotic weapon?
    It's an exotic weapon. You can pick up a free EWP with a level in Targetteer or Exoticist Fighter (Dragon #310).

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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    if this is pathfinder, a few levels in knife master rogue could be a benefit. d8 sneak attack damage with all daggers. i found this fit well with the unchained rogue rather then the normal rogue myself. might need to ask your dm if that's okay or not though. Recent DM wouldn't allow a normal monk archetype on an unchained monk.
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  18. - Top - End - #18
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Complete psionic has the double weapon mindblade feats that function as the exotic weapon proficiency feat. This let's you qualify for exotic weapon master which has some interesting stunts.

    4 levels give you a +1 magic weapon (as defined by DMG so technically can be enhanced normally when dumping SK levels) that can't be permanently sundered and 30 ft range increment which matches a javelin. 5th level let's you full attack with all your attacks and you get a 1d10 (2d8 enlarged) throwable 2h weapon or you can stick with the 1d6 to TWF with them. Free Draw would also let you retrain the Quickdraw feat from master thrower level 1, and Throw Mindblade let's you do the same thing with the Throw Anything feat from BsB.

    A human soulknife could get all the feats necessary to qualify for master thrower and bloodstorm blade at first level. I'd suggest getting Brutal throw and power attack

    5 levels of War Mind gives you a neat combo with thunderous throw. You can hit some one with a ranged attack and damage 2 adjacent squares that you threaten. This can double up with master thrower's Two With One Blow trick.
    close but not quite your forgetting that you need balance 8ranks for blood storm blade. so you canít get in until lvl 6 minimum. But those 4 lvls will allow you to make you mind blades +1 so you can do things like get throwing or magebane. put on them for when you do get in.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

    The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.
    Do we have a source of Iron Will?
    If we allow retraining Quickdraw, we do.

    Strongheart halfling
    Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

    1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
    2. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
    3. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, Boomerang, 1d6 SA, Hit-and-Run Tactics, Quickdraw

    4. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, 1d6
    5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
    6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus Boomerang

    7. Bloodstorm, Returning attacks, Throw anything
    8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat
    9. Master Thrower 2, Evasion, Boomerang Daze

    10. Bloodstorm, Martial throw, thunderous throw
    11. Bloodstorm 3, Power Attack
    12. Open level, Craven

    Of course, after 5th level, multiple options are open.
    Last edited by bean illus; 2021-09-26 at 11:45 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Do we have a source of Iron Will?
    There's always the Otyugh Hole.

    I'd take Master Thrower to level 5 for Weak Spot to get the effectively scaling bonus to hit from making touch attacks. By level 20, it's worth about +30 to hit.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    There's always the Otyugh Hole.

    I'd take Master Thrower to level 5 for Weak Spot to get the effectively scaling bonus to hit from making touch attacks. By level 20, it's worth about +30 to hit.
    Before or after bloodstorm blade?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Before or after bloodstorm blade?
    Basically, this is "do you prefer touch attacks (MT 5) or a full attack returning weapon (BSB 4)?" I'd probably err on the side of touch attacks. Taking that route, you are effectively forced to use mundane weapons somewhat longer, which implies you have to overcome damage resistance. But, damage resistance is just numbers---there are a number of ways to amplify damage numbers so you can penetrate damage resistance. Also, tables using the SRD will have touch attacks bypass damage resistance which takes away much of the value of magic weapons.

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    if this is pathfinder, a few levels in knife master rogue could be a benefit. d8 sneak attack damage with all daggers. i found this fit well with the unchained rogue rather then the normal rogue myself. might need to ask your dm if that's okay or not though. Recent DM wouldn't allow a normal monk archetype on an unchained monk.
    Your GM is correct - Unchained Rogue is compatible with almost all base rogue archetypes, but the same is not true for the Unchained Monk. (With that said, folks have gone out and converted almost all the older archetypes to work with it.)
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger
    I was checking on the guide, and while skimming at it, I caught Saintheart's RAW interpretation of the PBS line.

    Basically, ranged feats apply even when using daggers as a melee weapon as long as the feat explicitly states that you are using a ranged weapon, not making a ranged attack, such as Point Blank Shot always granting a +1/+1 when in melee, and Rapid Shot allowing an extra attack even when in melee, as long as you're using daggers. Is this interpretation correct, or at least accepted as not OP?

    Here's the Rapid Shot relevant extract to my question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapid Shot, Player's Handbook
    Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a Ė2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
    Emphasis mine. I don't want to deviate attention of the thread because it's a ranged build question, but can I get a quick answer or should I go to the RAW thread?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Yael View Post
    I was checking on the guide, and while skimming at it, I caught Saintheart's RAW interpretation of the PBS line.

    Basically, ranged feats apply even when using daggers as a melee weapon as long as the feat explicitly states that you are using a ranged weapon, not making a ranged attack, such as Point Blank Shot always granting a +1/+1 when in melee, and Rapid Shot allowing an extra attack even when in melee, as long as you're using daggers. Is this interpretation correct, or at least accepted as not OP?

    Here's the Rapid Shot relevant extract to my question.


    Emphasis mine. I don't want to deviate attention of the thread because it's a ranged build question, but can I get a quick answer or should I go to the RAW thread?
    RAW is yes, you do benefit from rapid shot just like you would benefit from both weapon mastery feats. PBS however mentions range. Melee attacks don't have range; ranged attacks do. So PBS only applies to ranged attacks.

    Feats are extremely balanced when compared to other feats and non-spell equivalent abilities. Even shocktrooper is extremely difficult to use on a regular basis unless the party and the DM sets everything up for you. I would be hard pressed to be motivated to ban any particular feat even in combination with others. Take DMM for example. The feat itself isn't what is OP, it's how it is exploited due to the lack of consistency in writing. It's obvious that turn or rebuke undead is meant to be a combined pool based on how it is written, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it to be possible to have multiple pools to increase the amount of times they can surpass the party fighter at fighting.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Do we have a source of Iron Will?
    If we allow retraining Quickdraw, we do.

    Strongheart halfling
    Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

    1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
    2. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
    3. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, Boomerang, 1d6 SA, Hit-and-Run Tactics, Quickdraw

    4. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, 1d6
    5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
    6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus Boomerang

    7. Bloodstorm, Returning attacks, Throw anything
    8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat
    9. Master Thrower 2, Evasion, Boomerang Daze

    10. Bloodstorm, Martial throw, thunderous throw
    11. Bloodstorm 3, Power Attack
    12. Open level, Craven

    Of course, after 5th level, multiple options are open.

    One thing though, the fighter that forgoes feats for sneak attack gains sneak attack as a rogue, so no sneak attack at level 2, now the rule for multiclassing with variant classes allows you to go "Feat Fighter X/ Sneak Attack fighter X" and have all common abilities stack for levels, check with your DM first though. That opens a new world of possibilities.

    Also... why the lack of love to the whisperknife? I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by holbita View Post
    I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.
    If you want to flank someone as if using a reach weapon, then it seems much easier to just use a reach weapon. For example, you could just wield a kusari-gama in your off hand at level 1. Note that flanking does not require proficiency.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    If you want to flank someone as if using a reach weapon, then it seems much easier to just use a reach weapon. For example, you could just wield a kusari-gama in your off hand at level 1. Note that flanking does not require proficiency.
    Doesn't have to be a kusari-gama, any 2h reach weapon a size smaller wielded in one hand would do it to.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by holbita View Post
    Also... why the lack of love to the whisperknife? I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.
    don't really know the thrower classes, i was just fiddling with the comments in the thread. In fact, i seem to not have precise shot in the build.

    But i wonder about this?
    Quote Originally Posted by holbita View Post
    One thing though, the fighter that forgoes feats for sneak attack gains sneak attack as a rogue, so no sneak attack at level 2, now the rule for multiclassing with variant classes allows you to go "Feat Fighter X/ Sneak Attack fighter X" and have all common abilities stack for levels, check with your DM first though. That opens a new world of possibilities.
    Are you saying that one can by RAW take something like:

    1. Fighter 1, Power attack
    2. Fighter Thug 1, 1d6 SA
    3. Fighter 2, Improved initiative, Combat reflexes

    4. Fighter Thug 2
    5. Fighter Thug 3, 2d6 SA
    6. Fighter 3, Weapon Specialization

    If that's true, can someone cite source?

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    Default Re: Knife Throwing Build

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    don't really know the thrower classes, i was just fiddling with the comments in the thread. In fact, i seem to not have precise shot in the build.

    But i wonder about this?


    Are you saying that one can by RAW take something like:

    1. Fighter 1, Power attack
    2. Fighter Thug 1, 1d6 SA
    3. Fighter 2, Improved initiative, Combat reflexes

    4. Fighter Thug 2
    5. Fighter Thug 3, 2d6 SA
    6. Fighter 3, Weapon Specialization

    If that's true, can someone cite source?
    You should even be able to do this:

    Fighter (Thug): Sneak Attack 1d6
    Fighter (Thug): -
    Fighter (Thug): Sneak Attack 2d6
    Fighter: Bonus Feat* (Weapon Specialization)

    As this would count as having 4 levels of fighter. Check page 48 of unearthed arcana, there you have the sidebar for Multiclassing and Variant Classes. Basically if it really changes the class to something else it is okay to multiclass into them and common class abilities stack, if the variant is not different enough then you cannot stack them. The example they give you is monk with different fighting styles is not enough for them to be counted as different classes, but bard and bardic sage should be different enough for you to take levels in both.

    Edit:
    In fact, I don't see a problem with a Fighter 4/Thug 5 taking the 3 levels of Zhentarim as a Fighter 9, but that one is even more of a check with DM thing. As the rule is you just need to check if your DM considers Thug and Fighter different enough, and well... I doubt you will find a DM that says they arenīt.
    Last edited by holbita; 2021-09-29 at 08:00 AM.

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