A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    HalflingWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Drakewarden Ranger and More

    I might be in the minority here, but I’m very disappointed with the metallic dragonborn’s damaging breath weapon, particularly in Tier 1, where it is literally less damage than the PHB dragonborn’s. I guess the multiple uses and Extra Attack compatibility are supposed to balance that out, but I feel it needed a straight buff, not a mixed one.

    I’m also a little peeved at the Drakewarden not getting bonus spells other than thaumaturgy. Other than that, I’m pretty thrilled with the subclass, though whoever pointed out the lack of a magically based attack has a point. 1d6 with no modifier ain’t going to cut it against nonmagical-BPS-immune monsters post-Tier 1.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Came here to say this. Definitely an oversight that will hopefully be fixed in the published book.
    It wasn’t in the play test either. So I’m guessing it was intentional to not make beastmaster completely obsolete.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Drakewarden Ranger and More

    Still no Darkvision nor ribbons, 2 stars.

    Drakewarden feels better, and can even be reskinned into an elemental ranger, but im still salty about the 'not just fixing beastmaster' thing.

    Points for not sucking, but that doesnt earn you a trophy from me when it comes to official content.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2021-09-25 at 12:35 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    Why does the drake warden get no additional spells??
    I figure because the drake companion should compensate for the lack of additional spells, or because it's hard to tailor a bonus spell list for the Drakewarden that represents them appropriately.

    Consider the following: first, you have a semi-permanent companion which grows with you and gives you a fair set of powers (including a breath weapon). Adding extra spells to the list would seem overkill, making it far more favorable than other Ranger subclasses (though they actually have some fair competition between Gloomstalker, Monster Ranger and Swarmkeeper IMO).

    Then, consider that Ranger bonus spell lists follow the idea that they add spells the Ranger wouldn't have access otherwise. If you see ALL the lists, you'll notice that no spell belongs to the Ranger spell list, not even to the expanded list through Tasha's. To tailor a spell list for the Ranger that would reflect what the Drakewarden can offer, you can't use some of the classics such as Barkskin (already exists), for example. Fly? Maybe. However, what besides Fly? Maybe Chromatic Orb (with its energy type selection), but then you get out of thematic spells that aren't locked to a single element. Elemental Weapon now is part of the Ranger spell list thanks to TCoE, and the bonus spells come exclusively from the PHB, which already limits the options.

    So...while you *could* have a bonus spell list, it'd be too complicated to add, only to pale in comparison to what you can already do with the Drake companion, which already has two ways to spend spell slots for features (resummoning the Drake during the day and reusing your breath weapon). If anything, I find Thaumaturgy to be an odd gift for them, in contrast to Circle of Stars Druid gaining Guidance (you seek guidance from the stars, ergo thematic). Maybe to represent a draconic presence?

    Anyways: I'm not exactly worried about the Drakewarden lacking a spell list. I find it exemplifies quite well the focus of "companion vs. extended spellcasting", keeping it within a stated "balance" point.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    I hate how half assed features reach printing. There is no way to explain in world why all your halfling friends and your halfling twin can ride the flying drake, but if you try to fly on it, it can't. It can fly carrying riders heavier than you, it can fly while carrying you in its claws, it could even have another rider AND carry you in its claws, maybe it can even fly while carrying you on its back, as long as you are not technically riding it.

    This is the kind of feature that makes me think they don't play the game anymore, or at least they don't play with the classes they publish. How many sessions would it take a typical party until some other party member asks, "hey can I ride it?" And here the worldbuilding crumbles, because this feature has forgotten what its purpose is, to reflect something that's happening in a story.

    Agg, rant over (for now)
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2021-09-25 at 01:12 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I hate how half assed features reach printing. There is no way to explain in world why all your halfling friends and your halfling twin can ride the flying drake, but if you try to fly on it, it can't. It can fly carrying riders heavier than you, it can fly while carrying you in its claws, it could even have another rider AND carry you in its claws, maybe it can even fly while carrying you on its back, as long as you are not technically riding it.

    This is the kind of feature that makes me think they don't play the game anymore, or at least they don't play with the classes they publish. How many sessions would it take a typical party until some other party member asks, "hey can I ride it?" And here the worldbuilding crumbles, because this feature has forgotten what its purpose is, to reflect something that's happening in a story.

    Agg, rant over (for now)
    Or the intent is that it isn't strong enough to fly bearing a rider period, and the DM rules accordingly.

    The game doesn't fall apart because the wording in every single ability isn't accounting for all possibilities.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    You ahve to bear in mind that the Paladin doesn't get access to flying mounts until Find Greater Steed, if they got flying earlier than that they'd probably have to compensate somewhere in the power department.
    The problem with this argument is that the Paladin is far and away the stronger base class. If a subclass for Paladin focused on a mount or pet, having one of that pets features grant a fly speed at 7 would not be a big deal since casting fly on a mount, having a conjured air elemental as a mount, etc are all possible at that level.

    Given that your pet here will not have magical attacks, it’s value in combat halved, maybe 2/3rds, that feels like enough of a bite to add what would fundamentally be an exploration feature since flying on your pet, a thing intended to increase your power by having it attack, takes it out of melee, reducing your offensive power and putting greater pressure on your nonmartials as enemies have 2 fewer targets to attack.
    Last edited by BerzerkerUnit; 2021-09-25 at 06:17 AM.

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    Paladin's... probably stronger overall as a base class, but I think it's also much less suited to archery, and ranged attacks are usually what gets people concerned about flight in combat. Though as you noted, the drake itself is melee only, so using it as a mount for ranged cheese means you're not really using it for anything else. At least until you get breath attacks for it, burning relatively scarce spell slots for ranger. Hm. Hmmmm. Seven does still feel kind of early for "limitless" flight, particularly mounted flight, but 15 also feels rather late. I actually kind of question what the drake's even going to do with self-only flight at seventh. A relatively durable (though not THAT durable) but stealthless scout? Trying to attack other flyers? I'm sure I'm underselling the potential utilities here quite a bit, but it doesn't strike me as especially impactful. There's a lot of room for use in general from "fly this thing (but not a person) over there", but I feel like there also tends to be a lot of options across groups for accomplishing these things.

    (also realizing that this subclass in general will loop back to the general nightmare of debates over how mounts work, oh no. Maybe that'll be cut off this time by the drake explicitly having its turn immediately after yours? Though that tends to be the awkward thing people argue about with the mount rules already...)
    Last edited by OvisCaedo; 2021-09-25 at 07:51 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    MonkGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo
    Paladin's... probably stronger overall as a base class, but I think it's also much less suited to archery, and ranged attacks are usually what gets people concerned about flight in combat. Though as you noted, the drake itself is melee only, so using it as a mount for ranged cheese means you're not really using it for anything else. At least until you get breath attacks for it, burning relatively scarce spell slots for ranger. Hm. Hmmmm. Seven does still feel kind of early for "limitless" flight, particularly mounted flight, but 15 also feels rather late. I actually kind of question what the drake's even going to do with self-only flight at seventh. A relatively durable (though not THAT durable) but stealthless scout? Trying to attack other flyers? I'm sure I'm underselling the potential utilities here quite a bit, but it doesn't strike me as especially impactful. There's a lot of room for use in general from "fly this thing (but not a person) over there", but I feel like there also tends to be a lot of options across groups for accomplishing these things.

    (also realizing that this subclass in general will loop back to the general nightmare of debates over how mounts work, oh no. Maybe that'll be cut off this time by the drake explicitly having its turn immediately after yours? Though that tends to be the awkward thing people argue about with the mount rules already...)
    I think the bolded bit is the real push. As you noted, the drake has no ranged options - so if you encountered a flying foe, you effectively have no subclass. This way you can at least engage those flying enemies.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Yeah on inspection the concept is cool and the implementation is strong, but this just isn't very well-designed. No spells, something that was repeatedly asked for whenever it was not present. You can't ride it and fly until fricking fifteenth level even though it has a hilariously slow flying speed of forty. The dragon's attack isn't magical, meaning 1d6+prof is going to be really inconsistent and fiddly. It also has the Beastmaster problem of "this thing's main use is that it's a lot of hp and its cheap to replace if it dies," which is very against the theme.

    ....I like it, but that's just because it when someone says the word "dragon" every single one of my neurons activates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Yeah on inspection the concept is cool and the implementation is strong, but this just isn't very well-designed. No spells, something that was repeatedly asked for whenever it was not present. You can't ride it and fly until fricking fifteenth level even though it has a hilariously slow flying speed of forty. The dragon's attack isn't magical, meaning 1d6+prof is going to be really inconsistent and fiddly. It also has the Beastmaster problem of "this thing's main use is that it's a lot of hp and its cheap to replace if it dies," which is very against the theme.

    ....I like it, but that's just because it when someone says the word "dragon" every single one of my neurons activates.
    I'm going to reserve judgement on the spells just for a little bit.

    Remember the UA Draconic Spells? Its possible those are in the book, and all Rangers get access to some.

    I doubt it. But its still a possibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    I'm going to reserve judgement on the spells just for a little bit.

    Remember the UA Draconic Spells? Its possible those are in the book, and all Rangers get access to some.

    I doubt it. But its still a possibility.
    the issue isn't lacking spell options, the issue is that literally every ranger subclass either had extra spells known on launch or was given them eventually. Rangers don't get many spells known and its not fun to feel so constrained.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    I would be ok with the lack of spells (although DMs should houserule them Xanathars dragon breath) if the pet could fly in a useable lvl range. As it stands its not ok. What a mistake! Twilight clerics get flight at lvl6!

    Moreover the lack of magic or compensating elemental attacks has to simply be an oversight, a d6 is not ok. The feature literally says magic fang! What you dont want in 5e is anti scaling. Without the extra pet damage from mid tier2 all the way to the breath attack, this class is going to feel terrible in that lvl range.

    The UA is strictly better! Use that instead..

    On the plus side, i like everything about the new Dragonborn.
    Last edited by Hael; 2021-09-25 at 12:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    the issue isn't lacking spell options, the issue is that literally every ranger subclass either had extra spells known on launch or was given them eventually. Rangers don't get many spells known and its not fun to feel so constrained.
    Hunter begs to differ.
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    [QUOTE=Hael;25209263]I would be ok with the lack of spells (although DMs should houserule them Xanathars dragon breath) if the pet could fly in a useable lvl range. As it stands its not ok. What a mistake! Twilight clerics get flight at lvl6!
    /QUOTE]
    (Emphasis mine)


    See WotC, this is the problem with utterly terrible hogwash existing even if it were to end up banned everywhere.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    [QUOTE=PhantomSoul;25209308]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    I would be ok with the lack of spells (although DMs should houserule them Xanathars dragon breath) if the pet could fly in a useable lvl range. As it stands its not ok. What a mistake! Twilight clerics get flight at lvl6!
    /QUOTE]
    (Emphasis mine)


    See WotC, this is the problem with utterly terrible hogwash existing even if it were to end up banned everywhere.
    Flight is the least of that subclasses problems.

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    [QUOTE=CMCC;25209380]
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post

    Flight is the least of that subclasses problems.
    Agreed, but it's still on the very, very, VERY long list (and is what's coming up here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    The UA is strictly better! Use that instead..
    I dunno. It seems to me that Drakewarden beats every Ranger in DPR, except Beast Master. Even if your target is immune to non-magical damage.

    Note: all of this assumes a single target. A few, like Horizon Walker, Hunter, and Fey Wanderer, technically do a bit better than listed against multiple targets, but not by enough of a degree that they'd out-damage Drakewarden.

    Drakewarden
    Level 3–4: 1d6+2 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (+5 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 5–6: 1d6+3 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (+6 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 7–8: 1d6+3 nonmagical and 1d6 magical damage on a bonus action (+6 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 9–12: 1d6+4 nonmagical and 1d6 magical damage on a bonus action (+7 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 13–14: 1d6+5 nonmagical and 1d6 magical damage on a bonus action (+8 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 15–16: 1d6+5 nonmagical and 2d6 magical damage on a bonus action (+8 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 17–20: 1d6+6 nonmagical and 2d6 magical damage on a bonus action (+9 to hit), plus 1d6 automatic extra magical damage

    Beast Master
    Level 3–4: 1d8+4 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (2+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra nonmagical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 5–6: 1d8+5 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (3+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra nonmagical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 7–8: 1d8+5 magical damage on a bonus action (3+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 9–10: 1d8+6 magical damage on a bonus action (4+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 11–12: 2d8+12 magical damage on a bonus action (4+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 13–16: 2d8+14 magical damage on a bonus action (5+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 17–20: 2d8+16 magical damage on a bonus action (6+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply

    Hunter
    Level 3–20: 1d8 automatic extra damage

    Gloom Stalker
    Level 3–10: An automatic extra attack that does 1d8 extra damage (first turn only)
    Level 11–20: An automatic extra attack that does 1d8 extra damage (first turn only), plus an automatic attack reroll each turn

    Horizon Walker
    Level 3–10: 1d8 extra magical damage on a bonus action
    Level 11–20: 2d8 extra magical damage on a bonus action

    Monster Hunter
    Level 3–20: 1d6 automatic extra damage (requires a bonus action to set up)

    Fey Wanderer
    Level 3–10: 1d4 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 11–20: 1d6 automatic extra magical damage

    Swarmkeeper
    Level 3–10: 1d6 automatic extra magical damage
    Level 11–20: 1d8 automatic extra magical damage
    Last edited by Dark.Revenant; 2021-09-25 at 02:17 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    DruidGuy

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    I think it's important to preface this by saying the 7th level ability is not your Drake can fly, it's that it can choose between swimming or flight. It is not a full dragon, it's just meant to capture the theming of the dragon. Guard Drakes can neither fly, nor swim, your drake is already extraordinary.

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    The problem with this argument is that the Paladin is far and away the stronger base class. If a subclass for Paladin focused on a mount or pet, having one of that pets features grant a fly speed at 7 would not be a big deal since casting fly on a mount, having a conjured air elemental as a mount, etc are all possible at that level.
    There's a world of difference between limited time, resource intensive means of flight, and permanent passive flight. The non racial examples of passive flight we have are primarily at higher levels, like all of the Sorcerers.

    The Twilight Cleric gains access to flight at 6th elvel, but that's both limited in duration, the conditions it works under and number of times per day it can be used.

    Given that your pet here will not have magical attacks, it’s value in combat halved, maybe 2/3rds, that feels like enough of a bite to add what would fundamentally be an exploration feature since flying on your pet, a thing intended to increase your power by having it attack, takes it out of melee, reducing your offensive power and putting greater pressure on your nonmartials as enemies have 2 fewer targets to attack.
    This isn't strictly true, at 7th level the Drake gets an extra 1d6 of elemental damage.

    It also has a reaction that empowers the attacks of others, which can easily just be the Drakewarden themselves.

    That amounts to a bonus attack for reasonable damage and an additional 1d6 per round to your own attacks, but with flexibility in that damage.

    This is actually competitive if not outright superior to a lot of the Ranger subclasses.

    It adds a non trivial amount of combat power, especially as it also gives you resistance to an element.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Yeah on inspection the concept is cool and the implementation is strong, but this just isn't very well-designed. No spells, something that was repeatedly asked for whenever it was not present. You can't ride it and fly until fricking fifteenth level even though it has a hilariously slow flying speed of forty. The dragon's attack isn't magical, meaning 1d6+prof is going to be really inconsistent and fiddly. It also has the Beastmaster problem of "this thing's main use is that it's a lot of hp and its cheap to replace if it dies," which is very against the theme.

    ....I like it, but that's just because it when someone says the word "dragon" every single one of my neurons activates.
    Flight: 40ft is not a slow fly speed, 2/3 races with flight get 30ft as standard. Most class features that give flight typically do it at walking speed or slower, unless you fall in-between turns or it's higher level.

    40ft in general is higher than the average PC movement speed, and equal to most 'fast' characters.

    Damage: The Drake gets elemental damage that increases in higher levels further, I suspect part of why it doesn't get magical attacks generally is because of the reaction to make someone hit harder.

    Theme: The theme is that you have a connection to draconic magic and spirits, not a literal dragon. This lends itself more to the Find Familiar/Steed approach than the Beast Master's theme of befriending an actual animal.

    It's main use is still damage, as well as the other benefits it offers you:

    -Resistance to its element

    -Another point of origin for your breath

    -the ability to give yourself resistance to any damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    Beast Master
    Level 3–4: 1d8+4 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (2+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra nonmagical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 5–6: 1d8+5 nonmagical damage on a bonus action (3+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra nonmagical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 7–8: 1d8+5 magical damage on a bonus action (3+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 9–10: 1d8+6 magical damage on a bonus action (4+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 11–12: 2d8+12 magical damage on a bonus action (4+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 13–16: 2d8+14 magical damage on a bonus action (5+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Level 17–20: 2d8+16 magical damage on a bonus action (6+WIS to hit), plus 1d6 extra magical damage if specific conditions apply
    Am I missing something? Why are you involving Wis with the Beast Master's companion? Both the PHB and Tasha's versions use PB as the bonus given by the subclass to the companion's stats.
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2021-09-25 at 02:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    I dunno. It seems to me that Drakewarden beats every Ranger in DPR, except Beast Master. Even if your target is immune to non-magical damage.
    Gloomstalker will still be the DPR king by a comfortable margin until lvl 11, at which point I suspect the Fey Wanderer will take that crown (it gets a concentration free summon). Gloomstalker gets easy advantage, init bonuses and an extra attack that scales with things like power attack as well as a d8 on top of that.. Tashas Beast master will definitely be up there. Horizon Walker will be up there after lvl 11..

    I would say the DrakeWarden has better damage than the Hunter, the Swarmkeeper (more of a CC class), and the Monster Hunter for all lvls. It will split DPR with the Horizon Walker and FeyWanderer depending on lvl, and will be inferior DPR to the Beast Master and Gloomstalker at all lvls. So middle of the pack.

    Whats disappointing for them is that they're going to feel a very strange power curve. Super powerful T1 play, where there pet will feel amazing. Then it grows up at lvl 7 but will feel more and more irrelevant to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Am I missing something? Why are you involving Wis with the Beast Master's companion? Both the PHB and Tasha's versions use PB as the bonus given by the subclass to the companion's stats.
    Beast of the Land uses your spellcasting ability modifier to hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    Gloomstalker will still be the DPR king by a comfortable margin until lvl 11, at which point I suspect the Fey Wanderer will take that crown (it gets a concentration free summon). Gloomstalker gets easy advantage, init bonuses and an extra attack that scales with things like power attack as well as a d8 on top of that.. Tashas Beast master will definitely be up there. Horizon Walker will be up there after lvl 11..

    I would say the DrakeWarden has better damage than the Hunter, the Swarmkeeper (more of a CC class), and the Monster Hunter for all lvls. It will split DPR with the Horizon Walker and FeyWanderer depending on lvl, and will be inferior DPR to the Beast Master and Gloomstalker at all lvls. So middle of the pack.

    Whats disappointing for them is that they're going to feel a very strange power curve. Super powerful T1 play, where there pet will feel amazing. Then it grows up at lvl 7 but will feel more and more irrelevant to play.
    How does it feel irrelevant at 7th level when it gives you resistance, whilst it gains more damage and mobility?

    If you meant from that point it will become more and more irrelevant I'm not sure I understand how, later on it gets more damage and facilitates giving yourself resistance to any damage? How is it scaling badly?

    It's also important to remember that the power of the subclass isn't just the drake, I mean they get Fireball that's better in almost every single way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    Beast of the Land uses your spellcasting ability modifier to hit.
    Ahh thanks for the clarification!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Flight: 40ft is not a slow fly speed, 2/3 races with flight get 30ft as standard. Most class features that give flight typically do it at walking speed or slower, unless you fall in-between turns or it's higher level.

    40ft in general is higher than the average PC movement speed, and equal to most 'fast' characters.
    Mounts are different. Even a warhorse typically gives you 50 foot movement and something like a pegasus (non-paladin) gives you 90 foot movement. AND unlike a standard mount, you want to be using this creature's action for something other than dashing.

    It's good damage but as a mobility option its lacking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Theme: The theme is that you have a connection to draconic magic and spirits, not a literal dragon. This lends itself more to the Find Familiar/Steed approach than the Beast Master's theme of befriending an actual animal.
    It's a copout and I don't like it. I'd far rather have an actual drake than I can bring back to life with magic, (say, using the fluff that I was entrusted with a drake/dragon egg and that we have a soul bond that allows us to resurrect each other) rather than some ambiguously flavored "dragon spirit" that I came into contact with via studying a dragon scale and only takes a 1st level spell to summon from the aether.

    At least have the resummon be a 1/LR thing so losing the drake feels bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    It's main use is still damage, as well as the other benefits it offers you:
    Damage: The Drake gets elemental damage that increases in higher levels further, I suspect part of why it doesn't get magical attacks generally is because of the reaction to make someone hit harder.

    -Resistance to its element

    -Another point of origin for your breath

    -the ability to give yourself resistance to any damage
    Damage, damage, more damage, and also a wall of meat.

    For a dragontamer subclass, you have to admit its pretty vanilla.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-09-25 at 03:11 PM.

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    Nothing stopping your drake from attuning to magic items. Just gotta convince your DM to let you find an Insignia of Dragon Claws so its bite becomes magical.
    Last edited by Amnestic; 2021-09-25 at 03:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Mounts are different. Even a warhorse typically gives you 50 foot movement and something like a pegasus (non-paladin) gives you 90 foot movement. AND unlike a standard mount, you want to be using this creature's action for something other than dashing.
    Subclass pets are not that way though: the Steel Defender and Beast of the land both have a move of 40ft. Creatures with higher flight speeds tend to have lower ground speeds. Actual drakes only have a move of 30ft.

    And unlike a standard mount it's a lot harder to kill and keep dead for the day. I understand why you're making the comparison, i just feel there's too many other factors at play to just hand it that higher mobility as base.

    It's good damage but as a mobility option its lacking.
    Part of why I don't feel bad about this is that they let medium PCs ride it, whilst the Ranger also has access to Longstrider.

    It's a copout and I don't like it. I'd far rather have an actual drake than I can bring back to life with magic, (say, using the fluff that I was entrusted with a drake/dragon egg and that we have a soul bond that allows us to resurrect each other) rather than some ambiguously flavored "dragon spirit" that I came into contact with via studying a dragon scale and only takes a 1st level spell to summon from the aether.
    It is a copout, but it's a copout so you're not just actually killing a living creature repeatedly. I've seen quite a lot of people show distaste over that kind of thing so making it a default approach seems the safest from a publisher point of view.

    At least have the resummon be a 1/LR thing so losing the drake feels bad.
    This would put it horribly out of place with the other equivalent subclass pets and allow you to lose your subclass powers in a way no one else can.

    Damage, damage, more damage, and also a wall of meat.

    For a dragontamer subclass, you have to admit its pretty vanilla.
    Eh? I mean they threw flavour in with knowing Draconic and Thaumaturgy, there's only so much you can give a subclass, especially without niching it down too hard.

    Is all you'd rather have from it be riding flight earlier and a higher fly speed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Damage, damage, more damage, and also a wall of meat.

    For a dragontamer subclass, you have to admit its pretty vanilla.
    What exactly do you expect a Dragon-tamer subclass to do, if not fight alongside a dragon companion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    What exactly do you expect a Dragon-tamer subclass to do, if not fight alongside a dragon companion?
    Reading what you quoted, they expected the drake to be more than some hp and some melee damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    It is a copout, but it's a copout so you're not just actually killing a living creature repeatedly. I've seen quite a lot of people show distaste over that kind of thing so making it a default approach seems the safest from a publisher point of view.
    I recall this problem with the Beastmaster in the PHB, the beastmaster was a case of the creature actually dying.

    If you're just bringing fluffy back to life it seems very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Eh? I mean they threw flavour in with knowing Draconic and Thaumaturgy, there's only so much you can give a subclass, especially without niching it down too hard.
    Ribbons cost you nothing.

    But IMO you could cut back on the damage for example and give it blindsight like a real dragon and I wouldn't complain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Is all you'd rather have from it be riding flight earlier and a higher fly speed?
    For mobility, just give it a fly speed of sixty and a swim speed AND you can ride it at 7th, but it can only pull off flight for ten minutes 1/LR, then 3/LR at 11th level, then constantly at 15th. Probably weaker overall but feels less wonky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    What exactly do you expect a Dragon-tamer subclass to do, if not fight alongside a dragon companion?
    I just want the dragon to be more than just bear who deals elemental damage.

    I like that it can buff you with a reaction. I like that you give it orders on your turn as a BA. But I'd like it more if there was actually more of a teamwork angle to it than just "damage." For example, what if our drake, instead of having "add 1d6 element damage" they had a feature like sentinel that let them actually force creatures to attack them? Drakes are supposed to be guardians after all. Heck, why not give them the breath attack earlier, just make it weak enough that it functions at that level?

    What if there were tiered options that let you build your own drake as you leveled up? Build a burrowing black drake or a flying white drake?

    What if the dragon had special senses that could be used for exploration purposes?
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-09-25 at 03:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    How does it feel irrelevant at 7th level when it gives you resistance, whilst it gains more damage and mobility?

    If you meant from that point it will become more and more irrelevant I'm not sure I understand how, later on it gets more damage and facilitates giving yourself resistance to any damage? How is it scaling badly?
    So its important to understand that the BA you use is competing with other potential BAs, like TWF, CBE, PAM, GWM.. So the pets attack needs to keep up with what you could be doing yourself. It does 1d6 + prof piercing + (1d6 at 7 and 2d6 at 15). Right around lvl 7 is the point where enemies start hitting magical B/P/S resistances. Which means your BA is now effectively 1d6, which is a downgrade from previous lvls and likely in practice not worth using in the first place and which likely makes the investment of a feat desirable.

    That leaves you with an effective 1d6 from the reaction.. Which sucks until lvl 11, where you get a nice damage boost, that unfortunately is rather limited in use!

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I recall this problem with the Beastmaster in the PHB, the beastmaster was a case of the creature actually dying.

    If you're just bringing fluffy back to life it seems very different.


    Ribbons cost you nothing.

    But IMO you could cut back on the damage for example and give it blindsight like a real dragon and I wouldn't complain.


    For mobility, just give it a fly speed of sixty and a swim speed AND you can ride it at 7th, but it can only pull off flight for ten minutes 1/LR, then 3/LR at 11th level, then constantly at 15th. Probably weaker overall but feels less wonky.



    I just want the dragon to be more than just bear who deals elemental damage.

    I like that it can buff you with a reaction. I like that you give it orders on your turn as a BA. But I'd like it more if there was actually more of a teamwork angle to it than just "damage." For example, what if our drake, instead of having "add 1d6 element damage" they had a feature like sentinel that let them actually force creatures to attack them? Drakes are supposed to be guardians after all. Heck, why not give them the breath attack earlier, just make it weak enough that it functions at that level?

    What if there were tiered options that let you build your own drake as you leveled up? Build a burrowing black drake or a flying white drake?

    What if the dragon had special senses that could be used for exploration purposes?
    Or maybe they could have it gradually grow larger and learn to fly and grow stronger flight capabilities like some other famous dragon companions of one of the most popular fantasy properties in history.

    I get not liking the mechanics - but not liking the flavor seems a bit odd.

    To each their own I guess.
    Last edited by CMCC; 2021-09-25 at 05:28 PM.

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