Question on Expertise

[Abracadangit]

For a new game I'll be running, I was thinking of allowing any character to spend two skill/tool proficiency choices at character creation to get Expertise with a given skill/tool. Bards and rogues still get to keep their respective Expertise class features, but this way anyone who wants a build that's predicated on a good ability check (i.e. Athletics for grappling, Persuasion for face) doesn't have to do the bard/rogue dip thing.

Has anyone tried this before? Are there any effects on balance, general gameplay, etc? Or if you haven't tried it, any thoughts?

[Christew]

Haven't tried it, but doesn't seem problematic at all. Skill Expert feat let's any variant human or custom origin get expertise at level 1, so I don't see how it could break anything.

[OldTrees1]

There are now 2 different feats that grant Expertise in 5E. The Skill Expert feat is +1 ASI, +1 skill proficiency, and 1 expertise. So I suspect it is easier to get expertise than you suspect. (Christew described the Human Prodigy feat. The Skill Expert feat has no prerequisites)

Since Expertise suffers from diminishing returns and opportunity costs, giving everyone an Expertise nerfs classes that get several. Basically instead of getting their top 4 choices, they get their 3rd through 6th choice. For Rogue this nerfs the out of combat benefit of levels 1 and 6. It is a bit hard to estimate how big a nerf this is, but consider the difference between the Rogue's 1st & 2nd picks and their 5th & 6th picks.*

I think the 5E ability check system is better suited to a more holistic overhaul, but this is not a bad idea. However I would consider also buffing Bard/Rogue. For example maybe Rogues get a "Reliable Talent = 5" at 6th?


*For example, Dun the Dungeon Tour Guide:
1st and 2nd pick were the impactful Thieves Tools and Perception.
5th and 6th pick were the less relevant Arcana and History.

[Anymage]

Two big things stand out to me.

Frist, some skills like Stealth and Perception see a lot more use than others. If a character can pull it off, I see them looking to expertise either or both of those skills ASAP. Given that a default 5e character can usually expect four/five skills total (two class, two background, sometimes one from race), that's a significant chunk of your choices in order to feed those most popular skills.

Second, as long as expertise is in the game, many people will think of expertise achievable numbers as the benchmark for someone who's really good at a thing, as opposed to straight proficiency which would be seen as merely dabbling. Given the target numbers that a minimally optimized character with expertise can reach by their mid levels, this could often result in the DM inflating target numbers to the point that they're practically unreachable for nonproficient characters. So most characters wind up practically where they before, except that challenges outside their area of expertise are harder and they wind up down one or two skill picks to meet to meet the expertise tax.

[Abracadangit]

Haven't tried it, but doesn't seem problematic at all. Skill Expert feat let's any variant human or custom origin get expertise at level 1, so I don't see how it could break anything.

My thoughts exactly.

There are now 2 different feats that grant Expertise in 5E. The Skill Expert feat is +1 ASI, +1 skill proficiency, and 1 expertise. So I suspect it is easier to get expertise than you suspect. (Christew described the Human Prodigy feat. The Skill Expert feat has no prerequisites)

Since Expertise suffers from diminishing returns and opportunity costs, giving everyone an Expertise nerfs classes that get several. Basically instead of getting their top 4 choices, they get their 3rd through 6th choice. For Rogue this nerfs the out of combat benefit of levels 1 and 6. It is a bit hard to estimate how big a nerf this is, but consider the difference between the Rogue's 1st & 2nd picks and their 5th & 6th picks.*

I think the 5E ability check system is better suited to a more holistic overhaul, but this is not a bad idea. However I would consider also buffing Bard/Rogue. For example maybe Rogues get a "Reliable Talent = 5" at 6th?


*For example, Dun the Dungeon Tour Guide:
1st and 2nd pick were the impactful Thieves Tools and Perception.
5th and 6th pick were the less relevant Arcana and History.

Yeah, there's that feat for Expertise, sure. But it's a little irritating at times, isn't it. Like the designers KNEW that Expertise wasn't quite worth a feat choice, so they threw the +1 ASI and the +1 skill prof as party favors. "Look -- you're getting a stat point AND a prof AND expertise!! C'mon, how can you say no?" And the rebuttal is "Thanks, but... I just want the expertise, really. I don't need the other things." And then aforementioned designer counters with "Well FINE, then I guess you'll just have to rogue dip like everyone else." But if you go off the PHB multiclass rules, getting a 1-level rogue dip nets me Expertise on two skills, one free skill prof from the rogue's class list (which is almost everything), thieves' tools prof, AND the starter rogue sneak attack & thieves' cant. So spending a feat choice for Expertise...? I dunno.

You have a fair point, in how spreading Expertise around nerfs the bard and the rogue (and knowledge cleric, and some other classes that come with pseudo-Expertise options). Maybe the trick is to only allow other characters to utilize this option once, and it has to come from the class' skill list, so the other characters still feel special for getting their two, and can apply it freely to any skill they choose (including those that come from background). Also we're not really giving everyone free Expertise, they gotta spend the profs for it. Would spending three profs on one Expertise make it seem weightier?

Agreed on the need for a holistic overhaul. In other games I've run I've let everyone pick one skill to get Reliable Talent for at the beginning, but that's only because I play with an RP-heavy crowd. If I was running for min-maxers, I don't think that would fly -- suddenly a lot of Heavy Armor wearers would pick Stealth, ha ha.

Two big things stand out to me.

Frist, some skills like Stealth and Perception see a lot more use than others. If a character can pull it off, I see them looking to expertise either or both of those skills ASAP. Given that a default 5e character can usually expect four/five skills total (two class, two background, sometimes one from race), that's a significant chunk of your choices in order to feed those most popular skills.

Second, as long as expertise is in the game, many people will think of expertise achievable numbers as the benchmark for someone who's really good at a thing, as opposed to straight proficiency which would be seen as merely dabbling. Given the target numbers that a minimally optimized character with expertise can reach by their mid levels, this could often result in the DM inflating target numbers to the point that they're practically unreachable for nonproficient characters. So most characters wind up practically where they before, except that challenges outside their area of expertise are harder and they wind up down one or two skill picks to meet to meet the expertise tax.

Maybe we'd only let any one character use this purchase-Expertise option once. Also I should have specified that my game isn't made up of people looking to dominate the game - like my cleric player wants to use it for Religion. I would 100% not consider this as a general amendment to the rules, since as you described, everyone would Expertise the mechanically meaningful skills in a heartbeat.

That's a very good point about the "moving the benchmark" issue -- I'll maintain that as DM, I would be sure to keep the DCs reasonable, with prof as the benchmark instead of Expertise. But I'll certainly try to be mindful of that, moving forward.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, there's that feat for Expertise, sure. But it's a little irritating at times, isn't it. Like the designers KNEW that Expertise wasn't quite worth a feat choice, so they threw the +1 ASI and the +1 skill prof as party favors. "Look -- you're getting a stat point AND a prof AND expertise!! C'mon, how can you say no?" And the rebuttal is "Thanks, but... I just want the expertise, really. I don't need the other things." And then aforementioned designer counters with "Well FINE, then I guess you'll just have to rogue dip like everyone else." But if you go off the PHB multiclass rules, getting a 1-level rogue dip nets me Expertise on two skills, one free skill prof from the rogue's class list (which is almost everything), thieves' tools prof, AND the starter rogue sneak attack & thieves' cant. So spending a feat choice for Expertise...? I dunno.

I was surprised Skill Expert came with an ASI. They removed the tool and language from Prodigy and replaced it with an ASI.

A level costs both more and less than a feat. In some ways Rogue 1 is less efficient than Skill Expert. Paladins, Artificiers, and full casters are more likely to take the feat. The rest are more likely to take the Rogue level.

You have a fair point, in how spreading Expertise around nerfs the bard and the rogue (and knowledge cleric, and some other classes that come with pseudo-Expertise options). Maybe the trick is to only allow other characters to utilize this option once, and it has to come from the class' skill list, so the other characters still feel special for getting their two, and can apply it freely to any skill they choose (including those that come from background). Also we're not really giving everyone free Expertise, they gotta spend the profs for it. Would spending three profs on one Expertise make it seem weightier?

Agreed on the need for a holistic overhaul. In other games I've run I've let everyone pick one skill to get Reliable Talent for at the beginning, but that's only because I play with an RP-heavy crowd. If I was running for min-maxers, I don't think that would fly -- suddenly a lot of Heavy Armor wearers would pick Stealth, ha ha.

Making it cost 3 profs does not help the situation. The price of 2 proficiencies seems reasonable, but comes at the game dev cost of also needing to buff some classes to compensate for the stealth nerf.

Also since you give out a minor version of Reliable Talent, I suggest redesigning Rogue Tier 3+ out of combat utility. Your fixes of the general issue seem to benefit Rogue the least and by a sufficient margin to rethink Wizard with Reliable Expertise and 7th level spells vs Rogue with Reliable Expertise and Reliable Expertise in their least favorite skills. I think those are reasonable ways to address the general issue but then your game dev task is to answer "But what out of combat utility features do Rogues get now to compensate for the Wizard's high level spells, since Wizards now get the Reliable Expertise?".

[Frogreaver]

For a new game I'll be running, I was thinking of allowing any character to spend two skill/tool proficiency choices at character creation to get Expertise with a given skill/tool. Bards and rogues still get to keep their respective Expertise class features, but this way anyone who wants a build that's predicated on a good ability check (i.e. Athletics for grappling, Persuasion for face) doesn't have to do the bard/rogue dip thing.

Has anyone tried this before? Are there any effects on balance, general gameplay, etc? Or if you haven't tried it, any thoughts?

I love the idea.

I would just note that it will change the relative balance of the classes a little, but not significantly so.

[Unoriginal]

For a new game I'll be running, I was thinking of allowing any character to spend two skill/tool proficiency choices at character creation to get Expertise with a given skill/tool. Bards and rogues still get to keep their respective Expertise class features, but this way anyone who wants a build that's predicated on a good ability check (i.e. Athletics for grappling, Persuasion for face) doesn't have to do the bard/rogue dip thing.

Has anyone tried this before? Are there any effects on balance, general gameplay, etc? Or if you haven't tried it, any thoughts?

Are you giving anything to the Rogue and the Bard to compensate for everyone being able to do one of their signature tricks at no cost?

[Abracadangit]

I was surprised Skill Expert came with an ASI. They removed the tool and language from Prodigy and replaced it with an ASI.

A level costs both more and less than a feat. In some ways Rogue 1 is less efficient than Skill Expert. Paladins, Artificiers, and full casters are more likely to take the feat. The rest are more likely to take the Rogue level.


Making it cost 3 profs does not help the situation. The price of 2 proficiencies seems reasonable, but comes at the game dev cost of also needing to buff some classes to compensate for the stealth nerf.

Also since you give out a minor version of Reliable Talent, I suggest redesigning Rogue Tier 3+ out of combat utility. Your fixes of the general issue seem to benefit Rogue the least and by a sufficient margin to rethink Wizard with Reliable Expertise and 7th level spells vs Rogue with Reliable Expertise and Reliable Expertise in their least favorite skills. I think those are reasonable ways to address the general issue but then your game dev task is to answer "But what out of combat utility features do Rogues get now to compensate for the Wizard's high level spells, since Wizards now get the Reliable Expertise?".

Another big question is "If I'm giving chars the option to Expertise at creation, should they also get the one RT, or is Expertise enough?" Because then there would be nothing stopping someone from Expertising/RTing the same skill. Perhaps if I go with the RT, I should make it a 6+ RT instead of a 10+ RT, so Rogues still can feel like they run the skill racket.

Maybe the way to think about it is that Bards/Rogues could get some kind of universal buff to skills that key off their main stat (Cha/Dex, respectively). Barbarians have a mechanic that gives them adv on Str checks, perhaps Bards/Rogues should get something similar, that applies to skills in their bailiwicks. Doesn't have to be across-the-board advantage, it could be more like advantage in certain situations.

Workshopping those at present, I'll report back when I have something more substantial, ha ha.

I love the idea.

I would just note that it will change the relative balance of the classes a little, but not significantly so.

Why thank you! Yeah, it's a bit of a sliding tile puzzle for balance, isn't it. If you've got any suggestions how to iron out the bard/rogue, I'm all ears.

Are you giving anything to the Rogue and the Bard to compensate for everyone being able to do one of their signature tricks at no cost?

"No cost" is a little debatable, I think. Other chars will have to spend 2 prof slots to get one Expertise, and the Bard and the Rogue get a bunch of Expertises for free from their class. But the point is valid that they should get something in return for their trouble -- see the conversation above, and definitely chip in if you have some ideas.

I've always felt somewhat shaky about Bards and Rogues getting Expertise in the first place -- with very little effort, they get to be better than the Wizard at Arcana, better than the Cleric at Religion, better than the Monk at Acrobatics, etc. I understand the intent: they're the "Skill Folks" so they get something that shows how skillful they are, but since D&D's skill system is one giant bucket that everything falls into, Bards/Rogues get to walk over everybody else's skills in this way that strikes me as quasi-intrusive. Does it bother anyone else? Or not particularly?

[Frogreaver]

Another big question is "If I'm giving chars the option to Expertise at creation, should they also get the one RT, or is Expertise enough?" Because then there would be nothing stopping someone from Expertising/RTing the same skill. Perhaps if I go with the RT, I should make it a 6+ RT instead of a 10+ RT, so Rogues still can feel like they run the skill racket.

Maybe the way to think about it is that Bards/Rogues could get some kind of universal buff to skills that key off their main stat (Cha/Dex, respectively). Barbarians have a mechanic that gives them adv on Str checks, perhaps Bards/Rogues should get something similar, that applies to skills in their bailiwicks. Doesn't have to be across-the-board advantage, it could be more like advantage in certain situations.

Workshopping those at present, I'll report back when I have something more substantial, ha ha.




Why thank you! Yeah, it's a bit of a sliding tile puzzle for balance, isn't it. If you've got any suggestions how to iron out the bard/rogue, I'm all ears.



"No cost" is a little debatable, I think. Other chars will have to spend 2 prof slots to get one Expertise, and the Bard and the Rogue get a bunch of Expertises for free from their class. But the point is valid that they should get something in return for their trouble -- see the conversation above, and definitely chip in if you have some ideas.

I've always felt somewhat shaky about Bards and Rogues getting Expertise in the first place -- with very little effort, they get to be better than the Wizard at Arcana, better than the Cleric at Religion, better than the Monk at Acrobatics, etc. I understand the intent: they're the "Skill Folks" so they get something that shows how skillful they are, but since D&D's skill system is one giant bucket that everything falls into, Bards/Rogues get to walk over everybody else's skills in this way that strikes me as quasi-intrusive. Does it bother anyone else? Or not particularly?

I wouldn’t do a thing. Many skill interactions require more than being good in a specific skill.

For example, a rogue might need stealth to get to the door, thieves tools to open the door, investigation to find the papers, forgery kit to make an exact copy but with one particularly important change.

Even if a character is good at stealth he can’t replicate that.

[dpencil]

If you want to make expertise more readily available in your game, I would suggest including NPCs in your world that can train your PCs to gain expertise. That way, you can gate the more potent skills behind quest lines, and allow all PCs an equal opportunity to gain additional expertise, so the bard and rogue don't feel like they're getting shafted. Say, when the party reaches 5th level, they are given an invitation to an academy where they can train for a month with an instructor of their choice to gain expertise in one of the knowledge-based skills.