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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Millstone85's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    My suggested fix for Warlock dips is to make Agonizing Blast scale on Warlock levels.

    Specifically... Once per turn, when you deal damage with a cantrip, you may add your Warlock level to the damage roll.
    My version of Agonizing Blast would read... When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on one hit. Apply this to more hits when you reach higher levels in the warlock class: two hits at 5th level, three hits at 11th level, and four hits at 17th level.

    I like this because it changes precisely nothing for a single-classed warlock.
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2021-09-27 at 02:14 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Can we throw the pact and patron stuff onto something closer to the 3.5 chassis?

    You or one of your ancestors made a favorable deal with, or received a blessing from, a powerful supernatural being and now you are a font of inexhaustible arcane power. You do not have spells in the traditional sense but your powers do not require prep-time or stopping to recharge.

    Once you know how to defy gravity, explode into a swarm of butterflies, drive people temporarily insane with a gaze, or breathe hellfire you can just... Do it whenever.
    I'd like that quite a bit, but I doubt they make a change that massive to an entire class, given this new thing we're shorthanding as 5.5E is supposed to be fully compatible with existing 5E.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I'd like for them to just get rid of Pact Magic (and Mystic Arcanum by extension) and instead go all in on Invocations and Cantrips. Pact Magic has just.. always been in this super awkward spot where it doesn't mesh with anything else in the game and in turn breaks other mechanics when you start multiclassing with it. The concept also just feels.. off to me in regards to flavor. The Warlock literally is making a pact with something to gain access to its power.. I don't see how that translates into "I know how to cast a proper spell with this power" and would instead like to see it tuned more towards spell like abilities as per the old 3.5e Warlock. It would be nice to be able to really customize Eldritch Blast again.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Echoing what other people are saying about splitting off Hexblade, but instead of getting rid of it, spin if off into its own class. There are enough warriors-who-made-a-pact-with-unsavory-entity tropes that I think they could make it as their own class. Death knights, hell warriors, soul-eaters a la Raziel from Soul Reaver (who's as Hexbladey as they come), etc.

    Then Warlocks could stick to their guns as casters, and we could have another half-caster class, this one with spooky and/or sinister debuffs for enemies, as a philosophical opposite of Paladins who have auras for their allies.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I've got a general list:

    Move Hexblade's Cha-based attacks to Pact of the Blade at Level 3.
    Make subclass spell lists automatically known instead of competing for learned spells.
    Add an ability at Level 18.
    Invocations that allow you to cast a new spell once per day don't take a spell slot.
    Fix Mystic Arcanum to allow for more casting and/or more spells.
    Buff the Level 20 ability.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    At its most basic, a Warlock is a collection of neat at-will powers. That means cantrips and Eldritch Evocations. You can't go wrong with sprucing up these two features.

    My idea for the cantrip department is that the Warlock should be able to better cast them than any other class (except the Sorcerer when he burns his Sorcery Points). And I mean ANY cantrip, not just his iconic Eldritch Blast. Unfortunately, you were expected to boost this only cantrip via Agonizing Blast, etc. Unfortunately, this created the Eldritch tax we know and hate. As it is, you can't boost your Eldritch Blast to decent levels while also fleshing out the cool concept you had in mind when you picked Warlock.

    All the cantrips should be boosted when casted by a Warlock or have cool interactions with his other class features.

    Concerning Eldritch Invocations, my message to WotC is this: Go nuts. I won't care if the Warlock's spellcasting sucks on the condition that I get to use and abuse powers nobody else can have. Make them powerful. Make them reliable. Make them worthwhile. They could even scale with Warlock levels. That would reflect your patron's gratitude in you investing in him, rather than abusing his graces via multiclassing.


    Spell slot restoration.
    I got inspired by the Samurai's level 10 ability: Relentless Spirit. If making Fighting Spirit a per-encounter power was a pass for the community, why can't the Warlock regain one spell slot the moment his life is threatened? Thematically, it would make sense. You don't get your powers back through dedication or study, but through your sugar daddy. To reflect the fact that your patron protects you, the powers he bestows you should refresh somewhat independently from your efforts. A short rest resetting them all is fine, but you should have more than Eldritch Blast when pressed for time. You're the mage that cheated, after all.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I’m fundamentally confused by whats expected of 5.5 here. If you want backward compatibility then you have to admit previous hexblades at your table. THat means old hexblade dips are going to remain just as valid as they used to be. Someone can still take a lvl of the new 5.5 sorcerer and say, well i’ll take the 5.0 hexblade warlock dip as well.

    The only way you make the problem go away, is if the new class or pact boon is good enough to outcompete the old version, and thats particularly difficult given just how good that 1 lvl dip was (for almost every class in the game).

    In particular there is a lot of available space to make a better new and improved blade pact, which could be redundant with some of hexblades old features and which could open the design space up for other melee warlocks.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Pact magic
    warlocks will have a maximum of 3 spell slots (they start with these slots)

    Replace the short rest recovery
    Instead the warlock can spend one minute of meditation to recover all spent spell slots. They can do this a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus.

    I was thing about adding some sacrificial mechanic as an alternative to restore spent spell slots that the warlock can use in combat.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2021-09-28 at 05:00 AM.

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I'm gonna go in the other direction and say, Warlock needs to differentiate more from the other spellcasters. They should get rid of pact magic, and double down on invocations, have all casting be derived from them (EB should be an invocation too, or lvl 1 class feature).

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Honestly, a rebuild from the ground up. It's a mess as written. More spell slots for one. Not a HUGE increase but they should have more than 2 slots for half the game. They should give them at will spells for lower levels as well, following a very slow progression. The big issue with them is that their theme of ALWAYS MAX POWER SPELLS just doesn't work with their spell list. Lower level spells simply don't scale well.

    A better idea would be have their spells known be SUPER restrictive, with a separate choice of at wills. Imagine if at level 5 they had 3 spell slots, but only 3 spells known. But they had 2 at will first level spell slots. so their spells known for slot purposes can be completely changed out every level. All 2-3 spells. And their at will lower level spells are more set in stone.

    Right now invocations try to do both and wind up confusing and lackluster. I'd rather give them their choice of at wills from their whole list, with a VERY slow progression. Like 1/3 caster progression.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Promoting Eldritch Blast to a class feature would allow it to scale like the Fighter’s Extra Attack instead of a cantrip, making it more difficult to get all the benefits from a feat or shallow multiclassing. Making Hex a class feature instead of a spell would free Warlocks to spend their few spellslots on something tactically interesting.

    I don’t love the idea of removing pact boons or rolling their benefits into subclasses. I like that warlocks have more decisions to make, and would love if other classes had another aspect that they could customize.

    Having other options for Hex-like effects could be interesting, similar to Hexblade’s Curse, or different options for empowering Eldritch Blast and cantrips with various effects.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Slider Eclipse View Post
    I'd like for them to just get rid of Pact Magic (and Mystic Arcanum by extension) and instead go all in on Invocations and Cantrips. Pact Magic has just.. always been in this super awkward spot where it doesn't mesh with anything else in the game and in turn breaks other mechanics when you start multiclassing with it. The concept also just feels.. off to me in regards to flavor. The Warlock literally is making a pact with something to gain access to its power.. I don't see how that translates into "I know how to cast a proper spell with this power" and would instead like to see it tuned more towards spell like abilities as per the old 3.5e Warlock. It would be nice to be able to really customize Eldritch Blast again.
    I'd definitely be in favour of this.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Slider Eclipse View Post
    I'd like for them to just get rid of Pact Magic (and Mystic Arcanum by extension) and instead go all in on Invocations and Cantrips. Pact Magic has just.. always been in this super awkward spot where it doesn't mesh with anything else in the game and in turn breaks other mechanics when you start multiclassing with it. The concept also just feels.. off to me in regards to flavor. The Warlock literally is making a pact with something to gain access to its power.. I don't see how that translates into "I know how to cast a proper spell with this power" and would instead like to see it tuned more towards spell like abilities as per the old 3.5e Warlock. It would be nice to be able to really customize Eldritch Blast again.
    This. Spell-like abilities, rather than spells. Not sure what would be best to fuel them, as long as it doesn't involve Short Rests. Short Rests are fine for the occasional ability, but to have your whole class function on them really puts you at odds with the other classes. It is also difficult to restrict to the exact right number for balance compared to Long Rests.
    Last edited by Aimeryan; 2021-09-28 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    5.5 change I want to see.
    Warlock goes back to being an INT caster as originally envisioned.
    (A man can dream, right?)
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    This is the main thing that comes to mind for me. It's pretty difficult to ever pick one of those invocations, given they're so limited and unappealing in how they work.
    Honestly, I've reworked most of those to cast the spell at-will without a slot cost. Yet to break anything. Obviously I'm not giving anyone at-will Animate Dead (as far as Animate Dead as printed is even playable; I use a heavily altered version), Conjure Elemental (though now I'm thinking even that might be fair; it does take a while to cast and has a very real downside after all; an invocation for an elemental ally could be cool around level 15) or Polymorph (because recurring 150 HP bags are inconvenient), but at-will Confusion, Bane, Compulsion, Water Breathing, Slow & Bestow Curse just isn't that problematic. If you're spending your whole action on that...

    And even Polymorph could afford to at least be a free cast and recastable using slots. Animate Dead is honestly the only one of those that's problematic and that's mostly on Animate Dead being a busted-in-half spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slider Eclipse View Post
    I'd like for them to just get rid of Pact Magic (and Mystic Arcanum by extension) and instead go all in on Invocations and Cantrips. Pact Magic has just.. always been in this super awkward spot where it doesn't mesh with anything else in the game and in turn breaks other mechanics when you start multiclassing with it. The concept also just feels.. off to me in regards to flavor. The Warlock literally is making a pact with something to gain access to its power.. I don't see how that translates into "I know how to cast a proper spell with this power" and would instead like to see it tuned more towards spell like abilities as per the old 3.5e Warlock. It would be nice to be able to really customize Eldritch Blast again.
    This is the way I'd go. Just turn the spells you want them to have into Invocations (as above), make more and better Invocations, give them access to more Invocations (and while at it, separate Eldritch Blast and other Invocations and make more Blast Shapes and such so that it isn't always correct to just dump everything on EB to make it good) and you've got a good simple caster class that mostly just blasts things with Eldritch Blast and has at-will uses of few other abilities.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-09-28 at 11:33 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    5.5 change I want to see.
    Warlock goes back to being an INT caster as originally envisioned.
    (A man can dream, right?)
    We do have too many charisma casters.
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Actually, I'm disputing that "dipping 2 levels" is a small investment, and to be discounted as "too cheap" for those benefits. 2 levels of Warlock is a tempting dip, certainly, but it IS a dip. It is multiclassing, and while I understand your concerns, a Warlock 2/Bard 18 or /Sorcerer 18 is going to be substantially stronger than Warlock 20 only in that Mystic Arcanum is woefully badly designed. Bard 20 is still going to be stronger than Warlock 20 under those conditions. Thus, the fix isn't to make it so you can't combine the two and get the Warlock you really wished you could have played by being a Warlock 2/Bard 18; you make Warlock 20 able to be the Warlock you want to play.
    The Version of the Psion Class that Mearls was working on before he was exiled to Belgium, was actually IMHO the best version of Psion to date and they should have let Mearls finish it. He might not normally be a mechanics guy, but his Psion was way better and better fitting to Psion then the Mystic ever was (plus Mystic was the name of one of the best Divine Spellcasting classes from 2e).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    5.5 change I want to see.
    Warlock goes back to being an INT caster as originally envisioned.
    (A man can dream, right?)
    When I started playing 5e, it made sense to me that warlocks would be Charisma-based spellcasters. Instead of properly learning wizardry, a warlock takes the shortcut of pact magic. Clearly, they have little understanding of the power they wield, instead relying on willpower.

    Since then, I have been in many discussions about whether pact magic involved forbidden knowledge, permanent imbuement, a divine-like connection, or a mix of those. I also played a warlock which, to my annoyance, the table kept treating the same as a cleric. Most of all, I became distrissed with the amount of thematic overlap between the sorcerer and the warlock.

    For all these reasons, I am now on team Intlock.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I want an at will spellcaster.

    I also want a spell-less mage. However that would be a different base class. The Warlock should be at will spellcasting.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-09-28 at 01:38 PM.

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    They should automatically gain all of the spells from their expanded spell list, and get 3 spell slots starting at 5th level, 4 at 11th, and 5 at 17th. That's just for starters...

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Abracadangit View Post
    Echoing what other people are saying about splitting off Hexblade, but instead of getting rid of it, spin if off into its own class. There are enough warriors-who-made-a-pact-with-unsavory-entity tropes that I think they could make it as their own class. Death knights, hell warriors, soul-eaters a la Raziel from Soul Reaver (who's as Hexbladey as they come), etc.

    Then Warlocks could stick to their guns as casters, and we could have another half-caster class, this one with spooky and/or sinister debuffs for enemies, as a philosophical opposite of Paladins who have auras for their allies.
    This.

    Yes, make eldritch blast a class feature - not only does that prevent poaching, it also means warlocks can be assumed to have it and therefore more class and subclass features can build on it (imagine each patron having their own unique spin on eldritch blast - changing damage types or adding fluffy secondary effects). Yes, give the warlock more casting - 2 spells per short rest is fine at level 2, but it's not enough at level 10 and hasn't been enough for a while. maybe even add a low-level version of Mystic Arcanum so warlocks can still get some use from staple low level utility spells as their pact slots start to outgrow them.

    but hexblade/bladelock is fundamentally a weapon using martial melee archetype, it shoudn't be tied to eldritch blast and honestly probably has more spellcasting power already than it really should. Plus, as a martial/melee character concept hexblades really need melee appropriate hit dice and gear proficiencies from level 1, while regular backline casty/blasty archetype warlocks probably shouldn't have in-class access to those things /at all/, let alone from level one.

    These concepts, while narratively intertwined, are not mechanically aligned enough to coexist happily under the same base class umbrella, much as is the case when comparing paladins to clerics, or rangers to druids, or dexy fighters to rogues. You could combine barbarian and fighter, cleric and druid, or sorcerer and wizard more readily than you can squish hexblade and warlock together.


    So take hexblade out. Make it its own 'half-pact-caster' class the way paladin is a more martial half-cleric, or ranger a more martial half-druid. Then hexblade can have its own features appropriate to a weapon using class, can have it's own suite of subclass patrons, its own spell list. Warlock can be a better warlock by dropping its pretentions to hexbladery, and hexblade can be an effective class with options instead of a locked build with hardly any flexibility at all.



    Or, if you really don't think there's enough room in the game for another base class, then make it a 1/3 pact caster subclass of fighter or a variant for eldritch knight or something. it still fits better there than in warlock.
    Last edited by Sception; 2021-09-29 at 08:31 AM.

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    5.5 change I want to see.
    Warlock goes back to being an INT caster as originally envisioned.
    (A man can dream, right?)
    Maybe they'll be more vocal about it, that it's OK to make the adjustment, and it becomes an optional rule in the same vein as variant humans, feats, and multiclassing are, instead of a side-note hidden in text in the DMG; even going so far as giving a concrete example of what and how much it would change (which isn't all that much). Might even do this for other classes while at it.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    Pondering this again.. I agree with the need to simplify the overall class design. Having two separate "power sources" (pact and patron) and several different expressions of that power (spells, invocations and arcana) are unnecessarily complex.

    I get why there are two sources: (# of pacts) x (# of sources) = # of effective subclasses. In 5x, you don't have a class without having multiple subclasses; but I think they could've gotten by with fewer such combinations.

    In 3e, warlocks' "thing" was clearly eldritch blast. I think e-blast should be made a class feature again, and not just a cantrip that anyone can pick up with magic initiate. I actually had a blast (pun intended) playing a paladin with M.I. and e-blast.. instant solution to my lack of a ranged attack. But I think e-blast should be more reserved for the warlock; and many invocations should just give flexibility to EB, besides those that grant at-wills. I read one OSR take on a warlock class that limited invocations to basically cantrips of other classes (besides the EB-related ones).

    So I say, give warlocks EB and invocations and call it a day.

    Edit: Int-based Warlocks don't work. Warlocks don't "study" anything for their power. IMHO.
    Last edited by paladinn; 2021-09-29 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: 5.5 Warlock Hopes

    I'd like to see an option of intelligence or charisma for spellcasting stat. Maybe move the pact boon choice to level 1, or have a lesser version of it at level one, and tie casting stat to that as the medium through which the warlock draws power from their patron?

    I'm all for removing blade boon entirely, along with hexblade patron, and making that a separate half pact caster class, or making it a fighter subclass instead. That leaves tome and chain. So tomelocks study their forbidden eldritch book, deciphering strange secrets from it, effectively contacting and drawing power from their patron through research. They use int as their casting stat, and must study their book to refresh spell slots during a rest. Chainlocks on the other hand commune with a spirit that serves their patron, or a tiny personified portion of their patrons essence, in the form of their familiar, haggling for their powers. These warlocks use cha as their casting stat, and must bargain with (or browbeat) their familiar to refresh their spell slots when resting. Of course, familiars are pretty readily slain, so maybe say the familiar's spirit remains as an intangible voice the warlock can still talk to & refresh spells from if its physical form is destroyed. Or maybe just let the familiar revive for free with every short rest.

    Heck, if you keep talisman you could use that to justify wisdom based warlocks, with the warlock communing with their patron through prayer and meditation over their amulet like a cleric with a holy symbol.

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