Babylon 5 is being rebooted - and JMS is involved

[Mechalich]

I'm very leery of this. B5 doesn't need to be rebooted. The original is an excellent show that, aside from technological changes, holds up very well.

It's not like B5 has some unique or brilliant plot. It's actually a fairly standard space opera setup in which a group of mostly humanoid species struggle with their interrelations against the backdrop of the meddling of more powerful precursor species. Even the focus on a central space station is a fairly common element (and in TV it's an obvious move to save on costs). The original was simply executed very well, with a cast that fit their characters well and worked effectively together.

I honestly don't see any real advantage to rebooting B5 versus making a new space-station based space opera show. Sure, B5 has an existing fanbase, but it's not gigantic and it's exactly the kind of passionate group that is more likely to be repelled by a new show that's only mediocre (and as mentioned science fiction historically struggles in season one).

[Brother Oni]

It's a common superstition in Asia to think that 4 is an unlucky number (like 13 in Europe and its colonies) because the Chinese* words for 4 and death sound similar.

*Don't remember if it's in Mandarin or Cantonese or another dialect.

I'm not sure what the Chinese equivalence is, but in Japanese they're both "shi".

In Japanese, they're homophones (四 - 4 and 死 - death), to the extent that there's a separate word, yon (よん), that's commonly substituted.

Mandarin is the closest with 4 (四 - sì) and death (死 - sǐ) sounding very similar with only a tonal inflection (youtube link).

Cantonese is less similar with 4 (四 - sei) and death (死, séi); that said, 14 and 24 are considered more unlucky because 14 (sahp sei) sounds like "will certainly die" (實死 - saht séi), and 24 (yih sei) sounds like "easy to die" (易死 - yih séi) (youtube link).

[Corvus]

One thing I would change is having Sinclair the whole way through rather than Sheridan. A war survivor suffering trauma would be a better character than a war hero. Plus they could do the whole character arc properly this time.

[Cikomyr2]

One thing I would change is having Sinclair the whole way through rather than Sheridan. A war survivor suffering trauma would be a better character than a war hero. Plus they could do the whole character arc properly this time.

No. Better have Sheridan replaced after the end of season 1, replaced by Commander Jeffrey Sinclair

[dafrca]

I will give it a chance but I am not overly excited they will be retreading the same story over again.

I woudl rather see a new story set in the same universe but that is just me of course.

[Dire_Flumph]

One thing I would change is having Sinclair the whole way through rather than Sheridan. A war survivor suffering trauma would be a better character than a war hero. Plus they could do the whole character arc properly this time.

I think I'd prefer a new character, new background, new JS name. If JMS is going full reboot, then I'd like him to tread reused ground as little as possible. (Side note, this show is why all my Shepard's in Mass Effect, male or female, have J names)

[Rynjin]

I think I'd prefer a new character, new background, new JS name. If JMS is going full reboot, then I'd like him to tread reused ground as little as possible. (Side note, this show is why all my Shepard's in Mass Effect, male or female, have J names)

I believe the official names for Shepard are John and Joan, so this is even canon! I believe intentionally, from half-remembered interviews from over a decade ago.

[Corvus]

I think I'd prefer a new character, new background, new JS name. If JMS is going full reboot, then I'd like him to tread reused ground as little as possible. (Side note, this show is why all my Shepard's in Mass Effect, male or female, have J names)

Mine did too, though I think it was more influenced by Stargate Atlantis.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm uncertain what I'd really want from this. Other than seeing Susan and Talia get even a full episode of their subtexted daliance, there isn't anything specifically that I think was missing from the original. I simply wish that the budget and network interference and early cancellation/uncancellation and actors not being available at a given time hadn't happened, and thus we had gotten a more perfect implementation of what came to be. Even if this new thing gave us exactly that, it wouldn't retroactively fix the original run of the show.

I'm very leery of this. B5 doesn't need to be rebooted. The original is an excellent show that, aside from technological changes, holds up very well.

It's not like B5 has some unique or brilliant plot. It's actually a fairly standard space opera setup in which a group of mostly humanoid species struggle with their interrelations against the backdrop of the meddling of more powerful precursor species. Even the focus on a central space station is a fairly common element (and in TV it's an obvious move to save on costs). The original was simply executed very well, with a cast that fit their characters well and worked effectively together.

I honestly don't see any real advantage to rebooting B5 versus making a new space-station based space opera show. Sure, B5 has an existing fanbase, but it's not gigantic and it's exactly the kind of passionate group that is more likely to be repelled by a new show that's only mediocre (and as mentioned science fiction historically struggles in season one).

I tend to agree with all of this. B5, Firefly, heck even most successful sitcoms like Friends or Cheers aren't successful because of a perfect premise, but because the cast has talent and chemistry with each other.

[Pex]

On a depressing note you know fandom would be wanting cameos from the original cast, but so many are gone.

[Rodin]

I have more hope for this than most reboots. JMS is involved, and has the right idea - don't try to do it the same way, because the original is there. Tell a new version of the story that fits the times (although Babylon 5 was depressingly prophetic in a lot of ways, or perhaps some issues are just timeless) rather than lean into nostalgia.

On the flip side...it's the CW. CW has a certain reputation, and there's a reason I've never watched their superhero shows. The cast chemistry is what made the first show work, and a lot of the charm comes from all the production difficulties. It was also a product of its time, and I'm not convinced a modern version with modern techniques would get the same results.

So...wait and see, I guess? I'm not sure how much availability I have to the CW without a cable subscription here in the UK, but I'm willing to give the show a fair shot. I would love to see an updated version made by someone who cares for the original (and JMS very much does), and if its disastrous anyway I still have my DVDs of the original. They aren't going anywhere, so I don't have a problem with them having a go.

[Morgaln]

The only way I can really see this succeeding is if it is a mostly new story with completely new characters. If you use the same characters, you'll always have the performance of the new actors being measured against that of the old. Even with the nostalgia lenses taken off, anyone will be hard pressed to measure up to the likes of Jurasik's Londo and Katsulas' G'Kar.
Likewise, if roughly the same story is told, you'll have to compete with the most outstanding episodes of the old show, like "The Long, Twilight Struggle" or "Severed Dreams". Even if they are new characters, you don't want someone deliver an obvious repeat of G'Kar's speech upon the capitulation of Narn, of Londo's response to "What do you want?" or of Delenn warning the Earth Force fleet attacking B5. You need to let the new show make its own way, or it is doomed to fail.

[Dragonus45]

The only way I can really see this succeeding is if it is a mostly new story with completely new characters. If you use the same characters, you'll always have the performance of the new actors being measured against that of the old. Even with the nostalgia lenses taken off, anyone will be hard pressed to measure up to the likes of Jurasik's Londo and Katsulas' G'Kar.
Likewise, if roughly the same story is told, you'll have to compete with the most outstanding episodes of the old show, like "The Long, Twilight Struggle" or "Severed Dreams". Even if they are new characters, you don't want someone deliver an obvious repeat of G'Kar's speech upon the capitulation of Narn, of Londo's response to "What do you want?" or of Delenn warning the Earth Force fleet attacking B5. You need to let the new show make its own way, or it is doomed to fail.

As long as the characters present are different enough and the situation they are placed in challenges them in a way to highlight that I can see it working with altered takes on the original cast.

[LibraryOgre]

On a depressing note you know fandom would be wanting cameos from the original cast, but so many are gone.

One of his cited reasons for not trying a sequel, in fact.

On Sinclair or Sheridan, I don't have a preference. I somewhat like the idea that they start with the War Hero, then transition to the War Survivor. I just hope they get someone with better chemistry than Michael O'Hare had with the cast.

[Willie the Duck]

On a depressing note you know fandom would be wanting cameos from the original cast, but so many are gone.

What's really amazing is that two of the few surviving male cast members are the ones we originally met on sci fi properties from the 60s (admittedly the youngest male cast members on each show).

[Wintermoot]

The entire new series will center around Lt Cmdr Takashimi and Dr. Kyle as they try to figure out the deep dark secrets of the alien races. All the rest of the cast will mysteriously disappear after the pilot never to be seen again.

[Cikomyr2]

The entire new series will center around Lt Cmdr Takashimi and Dr. Kyle as they try to figure out the deep dark secrets of the alien races. All the rest of the cast will mysteriously disappear after the pilot never to be seen again.

They are joined after season 1 by Jeffrey Sinclair

[Dire_Flumph]

They are joined after season 1 by Jeffrey Sinclair

And the mysterious Ancient Race turn out to be the ZOG!!! guys.

[Cikomyr2]

And the mysterious Ancient Race turn out to be the ZOG!!! guys.

You know, one of the most disappointing aspect of the overall story and how it all relates is how Earthforce/the Clark Administration turned out to having been doing the Shadow's bidding and getting perks from them.

I'd say the story would have been better if it was revealed the Clark Administration had actually been propped up by the Vorlons, and they were behind the aggressive pro-Psi Corp surges of control. Would have made the entire "we are dependent on the Vorlons" more doubtful, and might actually have cast in a new light the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, one of the most disappointing aspect of the overall story and how it all relates is how Earthforce/the Clark Administration turned out to having been doing the Shadow's bidding and getting perks from them.

I'd say the story would have been better if it was revealed the Clark Administration had actually been propped up by the Vorlons, and they were behind the aggressive pro-Psi Corp surges of control. Would have made the entire "we are dependent on the Vorlons" more doubtful, and might actually have cast in a new light the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.

I'd also say that the increased tightening of restrictions on everyone would fit more into the Vorlon philosophy than the Shadow philosophy.

So, to D&D this up a little bit:

The conflict of the Elder Races (notably, Vorlons and Shadows) was one of Lawful v. Chaotic. Vorlons were Lawful, and their question was one of "putting you in the correct place"... "Who are you" goes to categorizing and placing someone. Shadows are Chaotic, and "what do you want" categorizes you by your personal desires, rather than your place in society.

But with the younger races, humans especially, the conflict becomes one of Good v. Evil. The Centauri aren't wrong because they're self-oriented (even if that self is at the level of the Centauri people, but we also see that their individual leaders are self-oriented), but because they inflict harm upon others. And, though it's my ongoing hallucination, the Human question of "What the hell is wrong with you people" plays into this... it's not as much about Means (lawful v. chaotic) as it is about ends (good v. evil; weal v. woe).

The Minbari are kind of a median race... they have a lot of conflict about means (a very structured and lawful society), but many of their living people, especially those with a lot of human contact, are motivated by good v. evil, leading to the change in Minbari society where those with a lot of people (the worker's caste) are given more influence.

[Fyraltari]

You know, one of the most disappointing aspect of the overall story and how it all relates is how Earthforce/the Clark Administration turned out to having been doing the Shadow's bidding and getting perks from them.

I'd say the story would have been better if it was revealed the Clark Administration had actually been propped up by the Vorlons, and they were behind the aggressive pro-Psi Corp surges of control. Would have made the entire "we are dependent on the Vorlons" more doubtful, and might actually have cast in a new light the Vorlon/Shadow conflict.

The Vorlons being just as bad as the Shadows did kind of come out from nowhere, didn't it?

I think your idea is pretty good but, it would require some other changes. The Clark regime wouldn't be willing to just let the Centauri be ("Peace in our time" and all that)
and the opposition of B5 to Earth would have to be addressed by Kosh (I and/or II).

[Dire_Flumph]

The Vorlons being just as bad as the Shadows did kind of come out from nowhere, didn't it?.

Did it? They were going to blow up the station in the first episode.

[Fyraltari]

Did it? They were going to blow up the station in the first episode.

The first episode is about Narns attacking a Centauri colony, not Vorlons.

[Dire_Flumph]

The first episode is about Narns attacking a Centauri colony, not Vorlons.

"The Gathering" was the first episode, not "Midnight on the Firing Line".

[Fyraltari]

"The Gathering" was the first episode, not "Midnight on the Firing Line".

I've got the dvd boxsets of all five seasons and there isn't any episode before the Narn and Centauri one.

[Dire_Flumph]

I've got the dvd boxsets of all five seasons and there isn't any episode before the Narn and Centauri one.

The Gathering was the first episode aired, originally as a TV movie released over a year before the series started in full. It is not included in the first season box set because the first DVD released for the series contained both "The Gathering" and "In the Beginning", making it redundant. When the full season sets finished it was released as part of the Movie Collection DVD set. "The Gathering" is also included in the full DVD collection box set released later, and it is listed as the first episode when playing on HBO Max currently.

Regardless, I watched the series as it aired, and I can guarantee you, "The Gathering" is the first episode.

EDIT (Addendum): Finally found the quote I was looking for to your original point. It was actually JMS intention to portray the Vorlons as the "Good guys" and the Shadows as the "Bad Guys" regardless of their actions to give viewers the impression that the Vorlons were on "our side" when they weren't really. It was one of the writing quirks of the show I liked, that it subverted expectations about the Vorlons by writing to make us think they were a lot more noble than they really were.

One lovely thing about "Signs and Portents," which you picked up on, is something I like to play with; implying one thing while saying the opposite. Look at all the shadow's main representative, Morden, does: he asks people what they want; he gets tossed out of Delenn's quarters; he is pleasant in his demeanor at all times, never yells, always smiles, and is courteous; he takes an action which saves one of our main characters, Londo, from disgrace and resignation, and helps in the process of scragging the bad guys in the episode.
And yet everyone walks away thinking that the shadows are bad. Which was of course the intent...by the way in which they did "good."

Kosh prevents humanity from achieving immortality, scares the hell out of Talia (cf. "Deathwalker",) never gives anyone a straight answer, doesn't seem to mind it if people fear him...and we walk away with the presumption that he is good, by virtue of the way in which he did things that were "bad."

[...] This is something I do a lot in my scripts, which I don't generally see a lot of other people doing. You *really* have to construct the script very carefully to pull something like this off...a little game between me and the audience.

I'd also add the Vorlons manipulating younger races for millennia, both to produce Telepaths to make them weapons against the Shadows, and conditioning us to recognize them as literally angellic beings when seen fully so we'd be predisposed to trust them.

[LibraryOgre]

We're all ignoring the most important question:

Will there be Zathrus?

[Morgaln]

We're all ignoring the most important question:

Will there be Zathrus?

Unfortunately, Tim Choate is one of the actors who went beyond the Rim already, so he won't be available to reprise the role. Following in his footsteps will be a difficult undertaking.

[Rodin]

The Gathering was the first episode aired, originally as a TV movie released over a year before the series started in full. It is not included in the first season box set because the first DVD released for the series contained both "The Gathering" and "In the Beginning", making it redundant. When the full season sets finished it was released as part of the Movie Collection DVD set. "The Gathering" is also included in the full DVD collection box set released later, and it is listed as the first episode when playing on HBO Max currently.

Regardless, I watched the series as it aired, and I can guarantee you, "The Gathering" is the first episode.

EDIT (Addendum): Finally found the quote I was looking for to your original point. It was actually JMS intention to portray the Vorlons as the "Good guys" and the Shadows as the "Bad Guys" regardless of their actions to give viewers the impression that the Vorlons were on "our side" when they weren't really. It was one of the writing quirks of the show I liked, that it subverted expectations about the Vorlons by writing to make us think they were a lot more noble than they really were.



I'd also add the Vorlons manipulating younger races for millennia, both to produce Telepaths to make them weapons against the Shadows, and conditioning us to recognize them as literally angellic beings when seen fully so we'd be predisposed to trust them.

The Vorlons were one of the biggest casualties of the shortened Season 4. For the first three seasons our interactions with the Vorlons come almost entirely from Kosh, who appears to have been a genuinely good person. He had grown from his time on Babylon 5 just like all the other ambassadors, we just don't see it because we never got to see other members of his species. Then we get the shock of Kosh 2, a much nastier Vorlon who doesn't have the same level of caring for the younger races.

If you give that an entire season to percolate you can slowly reveal the Vorlons as less altruistic than they appeared and really highlight that Kosh was the exception and not the rule. However, season 4 was fitting in two seasons worth of content, so the Vorlons are full evil within half a dozen episodes and the whiplash feels out of place.

[Cikomyr2]

The Vorlons were one of the biggest casualties of the shortened Season 4. For the first three seasons our interactions with the Vorlons come almost entirely from Kosh, who appears to have been a genuinely good person. He had grown from his time on Babylon 5 just like all the other ambassadors, we just don't see it because we never got to see other members of his species. Then we get the shock of Kosh 2, a much nastier Vorlon who doesn't have the same level of caring for the younger races.

If you give that an entire season to percolate you can slowly reveal the Vorlons as less altruistic than they appeared and really highlight that Kosh was the exception and not the rule. However, season 4 was fitting in two seasons worth of content, so the Vorlons are full evil within half a dozen episodes and the whiplash feels out of place.

I was thinking, actually, that Kosh2 (Ulkesh) could have been the Vorlon responsible for dealing with the Clark government. A moar evil version of Kosh.

B5 was always about Law vs Chaos, but where Law managed to genetically/socially engineer their appearance so that they appear Good, and cast their fight as "Good vs Evil"

Lawful, but manipulative