Babylon 5 is being rebooted - and JMS is involved

[Rodin]

I was thinking, actually, that Kosh2 (Ulkesh) could have been the Vorlon responsible for dealing with the Clark government. A moar evil version of Kosh.

B5 was always about Law vs Chaos, but where Law managed to genetically/socially engineer their appearance so that they appear Good, and cast their fight as "Good vs Evil"

Lawful, but manipulative

That would have been very cool for sure. Wasn't the Earth Civil War story originally supposed to take place before the end of the Shadow War? They could have set up the Earth as looking like it was being manipulated by the Shadows (with Morden's appearance at the beginning of season 3) only to reveal towards the end of the Civil War that the Vorlons were doing the manipulating. In fact, I know the perfect time to do it - when the elite Clark ships are revealed. Turns out they were made with Vorlon tech, not Shadow. DUN DUN DUN! Then we get a full season of the Shadows v. Vorlons.

[Fyraltari]

The Gathering was the first episode aired, originally as a TV movie released over a year before the series started in full. It is not included in the first season box set because the first DVD released for the series contained both "The Gathering" and "In the Beginning", making it redundant. When the full season sets finished it was released as part of the Movie Collection DVD set. "The Gathering" is also included in the full DVD collection box set released later, and it is listed as the first episode when playing on HBO Max currently.

Regardless, I watched the series as it aired, and I can guarantee you, "The Gathering" is the first episode.

That's... A really bad decision. There really isn't any reason not to include the first episode of a show in the first season's DVD boxset unless it's a non-canon pilot.

EDIT (Addendum): Finally found the quote I was looking for to your original point. It was actually JMS intention to portray the Vorlons as the "Good guys" and the Shadows as the "Bad Guys" regardless of their actions to give viewers the impression that the Vorlons were on "our side" when they weren't really. It was one of the writing quirks of the show I liked, that it subverted expectations about the Vorlons by writing to make us think they were a lot more noble than they really were.



I'd also add the Vorlons manipulating younger races for millennia, both to produce Telepaths to make them weapons against the Shadows, and conditioning us to recognize them as literally angellic beings when seen fully so we'd be predisposed to trust them.

Subverting expectations isn't a bad thing but it has to be done right. As is the framing of the Vorlons in general (and, as importantly, the opinion of the characters on them) goes from "benevolent more advanced specie acting in mysterious ways" to "genocidal fanatics" so fast you might get whiplash. Especially since the opposition between Kosh I and II can be interpreted (until that point) as II being the unusual vorlon instead of I whereas the Shadows are entirely monolithic. Also JMS's breakdown of Kosh's bad actions is a bit laughable. With the exception of preventing people from reaching immortality (which remember, would be achieved through mass-murder), it's all rather mild.

[warty goblin]

The reason not to include the pilot is that the pilot is, frankly, bad. Just on a very basic technical level quite a few props look completely different, nobody is at all at home in their characters yet (understandable, still not great to watch), and it just doesn't feel very B5 to me. The first season is already rough, the Gathering is like that, squared.

Leaving it out by contrast doesn't really cost the story anything. Not that much important happens in the pilot, so a few lines of explanation works fine. Having a bit of unseen recent history also helps to build that sense of a larger, ongoing history and universe that B5 does so well.

[Morgaln]

The Gathering isn't an episode and isn't part of any season. It's a standalone pilot. They did quite a bit of changes between the pilot and the first season (cast, music, costumes and prosthetics...) because they recognized just how bad it was.
Since it isn't an episode of any season, it doesn't get added to the first season boxed set, just as Thirdspace isn't part of season 4 and River of Souls isn't part of season 5. "Midnight on the Firing Line" is the first episode of season one.

[Wintermoot]

The Gathering isn't an episode and isn't part of any season. It's a standalone pilot. They did quite a bit of changes between the pilot and the first season (cast, music, costumes and prosthetics...) because they recognized just how bad it was.
Since it isn't an episode of any season, it doesn't get added to the first season boxed set, just as Thirdspace isn't part of season 4 and River of Souls isn't part of season 5. "Midnight on the Firing Line" is the first episode of season one.

Eh. Normally when they do this: "reshoot the pilot" the pilot is treated as if it never happened. In this case the events of the Gathering are referenced in Midnight on the Firing Line and its treated as if the Gathering was a true episode before Midnight.

I think it should've been included on the first season box set. I'm surprised it wasn't.

[Cikomyr2]

That's... A really bad decision. There really isn't any reason not to include the first episode of a show in the first season's DVD boxset unless it's a non-canon pilot.



Subverting expectations isn't a bad thing but it has to be done right. As is the framing of the Vorlons in general (and, as importantly, the opinion of the characters on them) goes from "benevolent more advanced specie acting in mysterious ways" to "genocidal fanatics" so fast you might get whiplash. Especially since the opposition between Kosh I and II can be interpreted (until that point) as II being the unusual vorlon instead of I whereas the Shadows are entirely monolithic. Also JMS's breakdown of Kosh's bad actions is a bit laughable. With the exception of preventing people from reaching immortality (which remember, would be achieved through mass-murder), it's all rather mild.

You have to look at the Vorlons like if you were a bug and they are bug enthusiasts. They will try to step around you and whatnot, but if you show in their kitchen or if they are trying to deal with a crisis, you will get annihilated, on purpose or not.

A bug enthusiast isn't going to take care not to kill his favourite beetle when trying to stop a fire. He can always get more beetles


The Vorlons can always get more young races.

[Fyraltari]

You have to look at the Vorlons like if you were a bug and they are bug enthusiasts. They will try to step around you and whatnot, but if you show in their kitchen or if they are trying to deal with a crisis, you will get annihilated, on purpose or not.

A bug enthusiast isn't going to take care not to kill his favourite beetle when trying to stop a fire. He can always get more beetles


The Vorlons can always get more young races.

I know that.

I am talking about the way the show communicated that.

[Dire_Flumph]

That's... A really bad decision. There really isn't any reason not to include the first episode of a show in the first season's DVD boxset unless it's a non-canon pilot.

I don't disagree, but this was just when TV seasons were starting to be released on DVD. TV on VHS had generally been done on a 1-2 Episodes per tape deal and the idea of season sets were just being tried out at this point. At the time including the gathering on the season 1 set would have meant adding another disc, increasing the cost, and forcing fans to repurchase what they'd already bought earlier (the Gathering/In the Beginning having just been released some time earlier as a test to gauge interest).

It was just the reality of the time it was released unfortunately. That and Babylon 5 was never much of a priority for Warner Bros.

Subverting expectations isn't a bad thing but it has to be done right. As is the framing of the Vorlons in general (and, as importantly, the opinion of the characters on them) goes from "benevolent more advanced specie acting in mysterious ways" to "genocidal fanatics" so fast you might get whiplash. Especially since the opposition between Kosh I and II can be interpreted (until that point) as II being the unusual vorlon instead of I whereas the Shadows are entirely monolithic. Also JMS's breakdown of Kosh's bad actions is a bit laughable. With the exception of preventing people from reaching immortality (which remember, would be achieved through mass-murder), it's all rather mild.

I think you're reading the Vorlons as far more benevolent than their actions dictated. What benevolence did they bestow in the first few seasons? They saved Sheridan in Season 2 sure, dispensed fortune cookie wisdom and granted the "Man in the Middle" vision which were of somewhat dubious value. Kosh was instrumental in G'Kar's character development, sure, that was a good thing. One of the biggest things the Vorlons did was dole out some tech to aid in the White Star Fleet creation, but again, that was to further their own agenda.

But on the other hand, they were seconds away from blowing up Babylon 5 in "The Gathering" (which in my view kills the "benevolent protectors" angle right there), Kosh had Talia mentally violated by Abbut and had a backup (or something) made of her mind without consent, responds to Sheridan noting the other races fear Kosh by responding "Good", advocates just letting the Narn and Centauri kill each other in "Midnight on the Firing Line", responds to Sheridan's pressing him about Vorlon support by attacking him and near Force-choking him Vader style, has an agent torture and nearly kill Delenn, we find out that the Vorlons have been genetically manipulating several races for milennia and conditioning them to see Vorlons as figures from their religions.

Viewed in total, the Vorlons can best be viewed as "Sit down, do what we tell you, and if you get out of line you get the switch". And then Ulkesh turns up and we find out Kosh was the nice one.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong. The Vorlons were always written to come off to the audience as the mysterious benevolent protector race. I'm just saying if you look at their actual actions, the Vorlon's true goals revealed in Season 4 don't come out of nowhere.

As for the Shadows being monolithic, yeah, that's a problem. We never really meet an individual Shadow to talk with, we have to infer what they are like through Morden, and later Anna, Justin and Lorien. I think the only time we ever even hear a Shadow talk directly is in their last appearance.

[Dragonus45]

I don't disagree, but this was just when TV seasons were starting to be released on DVD. TV on VHS had generally been done on a 1-2 Episodes per tape deal and the idea of season sets were just being tried out at this point. At the time including the gathering on the season 1 set would have meant adding another disc, increasing the cost, and forcing fans to repurchase what they'd already bought earlier (the Gathering/In the Beginning having just been released some time earlier as a test to gauge interest).

It was just the reality of the time it was released unfortunately. That and Babylon 5 was never much of a priority for Warner Bros.



I think you're reading the Vorlons as far more benevolent than their actions dictated. What benevolence did they bestow in the first few seasons? They saved Sheridan in Season 2 sure, dispensed fortune cookie wisdom and granted the "Man in the Middle" vision which were of somewhat dubious value. Kosh was instrumental in G'Kar's character development, sure, that was a good thing. One of the biggest things the Vorlons did was dole out some tech to aid in the White Star Fleet creation, but again, that was to further their own agenda.

But on the other hand, they were seconds away from blowing up Babylon 5 in "The Gathering" (which in my view kills the "benevolent protectors" angle right there), Kosh had Talia mentally violated by Abbut and had a backup (or something) made of her mind without consent, responds to Sheridan noting the other races fear Kosh by responding "Good", advocates just letting the Narn and Centauri kill each other in "Midnight on the Firing Line", responds to Sheridan's pressing him about Vorlon support by attacking him and near Force-choking him Vader style, has an agent torture and nearly kill Delenn, we find out that the Vorlons have been genetically manipulating several races for milennia and conditioning them to see Vorlons as figures from their religions.

Viewed in total, the Vorlons can best be viewed as "Sit down, do what we tell you, and if you get out of line you get the switch". And then Ulkesh turns up and we find out Kosh was the nice one.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong. The Vorlons were always written to come off to the audience as the mysterious benevolent protector race. I'm just saying if you look at their actual actions, the Vorlon's true goals revealed in Season 4 don't come out of nowhere.

As for the Shadows being monolithic, yeah, that's a problem. We never really meet an individual Shadow to talk with, we have to infer what they are like through Morden, and later Anna, Justin and Lorien. I think the only time we ever even hear a Shadow talk directly is in their last appearance.

The main issue here I always felt was that the Shadows were so one dimensionally awful that even the shady manipulative Vorlons seemed like they were benevolent just by comparison.

[Cikomyr2]

The main issue here I always felt was that the Shadows were so one dimensionally awful that even the shady manipulative Vorlons seemed like they were benevolent just by comparison.

This very argument, but with Clark and Lochley during season 5 is why I just can't stand her.

She was proud of staying loyal to a president who bombed his citizens.

[Rodin]

All of this discussion is why I really want to see a reboot. Babylon 5 isn't like the remakes I've been against happening, like the Disney live-action versions. There is no way in hell you're improving Beauty and the Beast, the Lion King, or Aladdin. They're excellent, timeless movies and there's no benefit to remaking them.

Babylon 5 doesn't meet that criteria. As good as it was, it was a deeply flawed production and not just from executive meddling. It had budget issues, special effects issues, plot issues. It ran half off JMS's vision and half off old rejected Star Trek scripts* Two seasons were crammed into one. Audiences weren't trusted to understand shades of grey scripts, so we got deeply evil Shadows instead of "they might have a point" Shadows. Plot points were dropped, plot points were repurposed.

Babylon 5 is my favorite show of all time and is likely to remain so. However, there is a heck of a lot wrong with it. Just bringing it forward into the modern age with a modern TV and special effects budget would be massive. Modern writing techniques and ways of telling story arcs. Not designing the scripts around commercial breaks. Looking at the original and fixing the flaws in the plots and improving the pacing.

There are many reasons to be skeptical. We've gone over most of them in this thread, and I'm sure there are more we haven't. But I'm supporting the reboot regardless. If it fails, it fails. My DVDs of the original aren't going anywhere. But if there's a chance it's good...it deserves that chance.





*I have no evidence for this, but come on. Some of those scripts had to have been written for Star Trek, or just been bouncing around the Sci-Fi Hollywood community for ages. They had nothing to do with Babylon 5, they were just "generic Sci-Fi TV episode".

[GloatingSwine]

*I have no evidence for this, but come on. Some of those scripts had to have been written for Star Trek, or just been bouncing around the Sci-Fi Hollywood community for ages. They had nothing to do with Babylon 5, they were just "generic Sci-Fi TV episode".

Yeah a lot of the episodes are just episodic SF TV, because, well, TV was different then. TV then was episodic. You didn't have an ongoing chronological story, you didn't have arcs, you might have the odd two parter but you didn't have the ongoing metaplot.

Babylon 5 was pretty much unique in going into the series with the intent of having an overarching 5 season narrative. (The X-Files which was at pretty much the same time sort of stumbled into a story arc as it went but it wasn't part of the plan to start with.)

So a lot of the episodes could quite happily have been dropped into Star Trek because, well, episodic sci-fi TV is episodic sci-fi TV you just fiddle around with how characters react to the specifics of the ones you're dealing with (and quite a lot of writers and actors worked on both, sometimes even playing characters with suspiciously similar names).

[Cikomyr2]

So JMS did approach paramount to do a Space Station spin-off for Star trek. He did named it Deep space Nine, and a lot of superficial elements are in the original series Bible submitted that made it to the final DS9 show.

Stuff like having a character named Dukat. Having a wormhole near the station to allow far travel. Having two alien species in antagonism, one having occupied the other until recently. Having a cop character. Having a doctor character. Having a fiesty female first officer.

However, anyone who knows DS9 and B5 understand that these superficial similarities are.. Superficial. It's clear the Paramount execs thrown the DS9 Bible at Behr and Wolf so they come up with their own storylines, but B/W obviously explore these same superficial themes in completely different manners. Only uptight individuals would claim the DS9 writers stole JMS work.

Paramount execs clearly did try to steal JMS, but this has nothing to do with whether or not DS9 was a good show, since they went a completely different way.

[Rodin]

Oh, I'm not trying to claim that anyone was stealing anything. It's just that the group of writers who were doing Sci-Fi writing around that time were a relatively small group who were all influencing one another and jumping between shows and writing scripts that were deliberately vague enough that you could file the serial numbers off and slot them into whatever show happened to pick them up.

You see this with some of the early episodes of DS9 and Babylon 5. The episodes are suspiciously similar, yet if you look at the production dates it's impossible for one show or the other to have stolen or copied from the other. It's just like-minded authors coming up with the same core script, because there's only so many stock monster-of-the-week/negative-space-wedgie-of-the-week storylines you can do.

In the streaming age that's less likely. Scripts (or at least outlines) for entire seasons are made in one go, and its generally the same team of writers doing it. A rebooted Babylon 5 would be very different even if you somehow pulled the same cast forward in time. The means of creating shows has changed.

[Dire_Flumph]

Oh, I'm not trying to claim that anyone was stealing anything. It's just that the group of writers who were doing Sci-Fi writing around that time were a relatively small group who were all influencing one another and jumping between shows and writing scripts that were deliberately vague enough that you could file the serial numbers off and slot them into whatever show happened to pick them up.

Just chiming in to point out, there were 110 episodes of Babylon 5. JMS wrote the scripts for 92 of them.

This was actually a big problem in the last two seasons as you could see burnout setting in.

[warty goblin]

I quite liked B5's combination of episodic and ongoing plot arc; it gave this sense of lots disparate of things going on in the world and gave the longterm plot stuff room to breathe. One if the things I find burns me out with super tightly plotted modern TV is that they're all written so each episode is constantly raising the stakes and maximally dramatic, and if you actually take a moment to think about the arc of a couple episodes it just collapses into nonsense. By cutting the big epic episodes with more episodic stuff, B5 actually stayed overall pretty sensible, and a person could have some sense of what people did and what life was like in that universe.

[russdm]

I think my entire reaction consists of the following feeling.

"Oh Dear GOD! Not Again!"

"I would sell my soul to dark powers for JMS to drop this entire project and let the Babylon 5 Reboot not happen

The original Babylon 5 was not really actually all that good. So much of it is based on Nostalgia and how much the show went in directions that weren't current in Scifi TV at the time.

[Precure]

B5 was supposed to be episodic? Never noticed it.

[russdm]

B5 was supposed to be episodic? Never noticed it.

It was totally episodic. Some episodes moved the meta-plot forward (Narn-Centauri Conflict {Which is was interesting and I cared about some} or Vorlon-Shadow Conflict {Which I think got lost in just about every way possible & I didn't care about any}, but the show was not any different than how TNG ended up being.

[Morgaln]

It was totally episodic. Some episodes moved the meta-plot forward (Narn-Centauri Conflict {Which is was interesting and I cared about some} or Vorlon-Shadow Conflict {Which I think got lost in just about every way possible & I didn't care about any}, but the show was not any different than how TNG ended up being.

That's not true. B5 started off mostly episodic in season 1, but by season 3, most episodes were part of the overarching plot and season 4 is pretty much pure ongoing plot. That gradual increase was intentional, by the way. It's also specifically different from TNG in that what happens to a character in one episode is likely to have lasting consequences and changes to the character further down the road, something that TNG definitely didn't do.

Also, B5 has more of a direct sociocritical component. Especially the Nightwatch subplot and the portrayal of media in the show are more relevant than ever, considering certain developments in western countries over the last 10-20 years.

[truemane]

This was actually a big problem in the last two seasons as you could see burnout setting in.

The main issue with the last two season was that JMS was told the series was cancelled a year earlier than he'd planned. So Season 4 was basically two seasons of narrative jammed into one. And then he wound up getting a 5th season after all. So season 5 was basically a long denouement. Interesting, but anticlimactic.

[GloatingSwine]

The main issue with the last two season was that JMS was told the series was cancelled a year earlier than he'd planned. So Season 4 was basically two seasons of narrative jammed into one. And then he wound up getting a 5th season after all. So season 5 was basically a long denouement. Interesting, but anticlimactic.

Season 4 would originally have ended with Intersections in Real Time, with the climax of the Earth civil war coming roughly as far into season 5 as the climax of the Shadow war did in season 4.

The change meant that the content that should have formed about 3/4 of the final season had to form the whole of it, and the earth civil war was truncated. That meant that we had to have a lot more of Byron, the universe's most annoying man.

The other thing was the contract kerfuffle with Claudia Christian which meant that Ivanova disappeared from the show and a new character had to be squeezed into an Ivanova sized hole in the rest of the show but without 4 seasons of accumulated empathy for that character.

[Precure]

It's important to note that themmain reason behind B5's betrayal/rebellion against the Clark regime is Earth's secret alliance with Centauri and Shadows.

[Cikomyr2]

It's important to note that themmain reason behind B5's betrayal/rebellion against the Clark regime is Earth's secret alliance with Centauri and Shadows.

Was it?

I thought the main reason behind B5's betrayal was the Clark government's policies toward dissidence and authoritarianism.

[Precure]

Was it?

I thought the main reason behind B5's betrayal was the Clark government's policies toward dissidence and authoritarianism.

Not really. It was more like a casus belli and pretext.

[Cikomyr2]

Not really. It was more like a casus belli and pretext.

Except the B5 crew started conspiring before they learned of the alliance with the Shadows.

[J-H]

The change meant that the content that should have formed about 3/4 of the final season had to form the whole of it, and the earth civil war was truncated. That meant that we had to have a lot more of Byron, the universe's most annoying man.

Thank you, yes, I agree. I'd rather have Neelix or Jar-Jar.

[Morgaln]

It's important to note that themmain reason behind B5's betrayal/rebellion against the Clark regime is Earth's secret alliance with Centauri and Shadows.

B5 doesn't even know Clark is colluding with the Shadows until after they declare independence; they find out when they intercept the ship carrying telepaths intended as cores for the shadow vessels. That is several episodes after they declare independence. Also, there isn't an alliance between Earth and Centauri Prime, just a non-aggression pact that lets the Centauri wage war against their neighbors without Earth's interference.

What does make B5 oppose Clark is that they know he assassinated president Santiago to become president himself; they don't have proof until early in season 3, but they've known ever since the end of season 1 since Garibaldi uncovered the plot. What makes them declare independence is when Clark dissolves the senate and declares martial law, turning himself into a dictator.

[Wintermoot]

Thank you, yes, I agree. I'd rather have Neelix or Jar-Jar.

Neelix's body and sideburns, Jar Jar's head and Byron's luxurious hair.

[russdm]

for any remake or reboot of Babylon 5, i would want some things:

1) The Narn - Centauri conflict given a bigger emphasis and focus. More episodes following plot events relating to this war and the effect it has on neighboring species. Emphasis on attempts to gain sympathy for the Narn or Centauri

2) Morden, Morden, Morden -- I want more Morden and more of him going around to different groups to offer what services his masters have. More emphasis on Morden stirring the pot of activities in the background, working to advance different goals for the Shadows. Have Morden be there more

3) Make the Shadows make opaque -- I really didn't like how silly the original Babylon 5 made the Shadows. So much ominous from Deleen and so much a sense of their being built up as more than they turned out to be. The Shadows can't get hyped up as being such a big threat and then be shown to be moonlighting as idiots. You really need to decide what kind of portrayal they get (Dangerous always or Whimsically frightening) and stick to it. No build up of threat with sappy pay off

4) Vir -- Our characters need more focus in why they exist in the show and what purpose they serve and make it happen. Vir was a great character.

5) Dr. Franklin -- I don't care that Scifi shows before always had a Doctor character, because if you can't figure out what to with said character and make them worth paying attention to, then you need to axe them. Dr. Franklin was probably the most least interesting characters in the series.

6) No Game of Thrones anything -- Game of Thrones is a big show, but nothing about it really tells how to tell any great story beyond Game of Thrones is possible from it. No Sexposition, No Boobs, no dumb time travel, no dumb travel times. Shows don't need the Game of Thrones treatment, because Game of Thrones is a terrible TV show.

7) No Game of Thrones Bad Guys Sue Balls -- Game of Thrones really gave the Bad Guys the benefit on pretty much everything and rarely extracted a price out of them. The Bad guys kept being able to win and win easily with almost no in story consequences. Then the writers dumped plots in to most beneficial for the Bad Guys but screwed everyone else over, every time they possibly could.

While watching the Lannisters play their whatevers, make sure to reflect the real consequences of their Decisions. If Cersei decides to blow up a bunch of people, don't have most of the realm still willing to pay attention to her or trust her any. Don't make some faction betray another that they loyally served for years just because some Lannister flashes some tits or cash. They should have remembered what that moron (cersei) did and act based on that information

8) No Game of Thrones Faction Farting -- Factions that have no reasons to trust another should not suddenly be jumping sides just cause. No factions should be acting because you want to complicate some point. Factions should act for their benefit or cause, not because some Lannister flashed some tits or cash.

9) No Game of Thrones Random Events & Game-iness -- The results of some person's actions or some group's actions should have realistic results in the story you made. We don't need some actions pretty much disappear because the plot works better if you lump some action to some event. If a Lannister murders some dude and it is known about, don't have the friends or family of that Dude suddenly decide that they can trust that Lannister person,, just because it works for the plot.

10) Basically, you should not be ever using the Game of Thrones Playbook for making Plotlines. The show completely wrecked Dorne, completely wrecked later conflicts, and pretty much gave everyone else an idiot ball and made everybody totally chill with working with Cersei after she went nuts, or had some group drop some loyalty they had over incrediably dumb reasons (Looking at the guy who betrayed that family who had the grain the Lannisters needed)

11) The Bad Guys need to be shown to fight for their victories and have some part shown of how they got those victories. The Prequels of Star Wars failed to show anything about how good Palps actually was, and so it made his winning come across as cheap and dumb and stupid. Don't randomly head the Good Guys the Idiot ball. Don't give the villains any Villain Sue-ness. Don't make the Villains come across as always winning because everyone else is made of stupid. That was Game or Thrones Major Schtick, and you definitely should not copy it.

(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)