Why no Cloister now?

[littlebum2002]

There's a bonus strip where Sangwaan (the blin Azurite seer) tells Hinjo that Belkar will save his life twice.

He's done it once already. So, unless you count this (which you shouldn't), Hinjo is due to get back to the plot before the Belkster bites it.

Which wouldn't surprise me.

Ugh good luck with this one. I have been on the "Belkar needs to save Hinjo's life again" train for years and most people on here argue with me and say that #455 is the second time.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, I know about that loophole. My point is, rather, that we have seen a cloistered area accessed from the outer planes without resorting to epic magic or exploiting that loophole.

Roy's ghost going to Azure City happened one of two possible ways: either it was like physical movement, in which case we know Cloister does nothing or it was like teleportation, in which case, the epic magic in the clouds could have helped.

[Metastachydium]

Roy's ghost going to Azure City happened one of two possible ways: either it was like physical movement, in which case we know Cloister does nothing or it was like teleportation, in which case, the epic magic in the clouds could have helped.

I absolutely forgot it's explicitly epic stuff, so thanks for pointing that out!
That said, I don't think it's physical movement or teleportation (since Azure City and the clouds are on different planes), and if the Outer Planes amplify magic to such an extent that they enable epic planar travelling, the point that the IFCC should have no trouble breaching a cloistered area if they get to use the resources at their disposal still stands.

[Fyraltari]

I absolutely forgot it's explicitly epic stuff, so thanks for pointing that out!
That said, I don't think it's physical movement or teleportation (since Azure City and the clouds are on different planes), and if the Outer Planes amplify magic to such an extent that they enable epic planar travelling, the point that the IFCC should have no trouble breaching a cloistered area if they get to use the resources at their disposal still stands.

Oh definitely. I mean they're the guys who loaned Ganonron to Vaarsuvius, in the first place. Xykon or Dorukan have nothing on them.

[danielxcutter]

Even aspects of archfiends tend to be in the CR 20s(the demon lords in FCII are the real deal, but I agree with the Savage Tide adventure path in that they should be considered aspects as well), and they typically have enough power, resources, and favors to cash in that the most common use of them in a game is “plot device”.

[RatElemental]

they typically have enough power, resources, and favors to cash in that the most common use of them in a game is “plot device”.

Cthulhu essentially having "You're all dead" as its statblock in CoC comes to mind in comparison.

[Riftwolf]

They might have erased themselves from reality, but these guys had fully-functionning automatons when nobody else had even figured iron out, they built a god and they took exactly zero **** from anybody (D)Aedra included.

Gotta respect that.
This is an Elder Scrolls joke.

I got it! I got the joke!
My pet theory is the Dwemer accidentally found out they were in a computer game and got erased by the developers to avoid meta-humour. Hermaeus-Mora is the manifestation of the coders in the universe which is why his realm is full of poorly kept illegible books.

[Fyraltari]

I got it! I got the joke!
My pet theory is the Dwemer accidentally found out they were in a computer game and got erased by the developers to avoid meta-humour.

That's less a pet theory and more a reworking of the most common interpretation of Zero-Summing.

[Riftwolf]

That's less a pet theory and more a reworking of the most common interpretation of Zero-Summing.

I've not heard of zero summing and CHIM in Elder Scrolls till now. Some of the lore got a bit esoteric and contradictory for me.

[Fyraltari]

Some of the lore got a bit esoteric and contradictory

Indeed. Or maybe not? *Checks whether the Dragon is Broken again*

[Riftwolf]

Indeed. Or maybe not? *Checks whether the Dragon is Broken again*

Which of Daggerfalls endings happened in canon? ALL OF THEM

Also did Vivec survive the events of Morrowind? APPARENTLY NOBODY CHECKED

[Fyraltari]

Also did Vivec survive the events of Morrowind? APPARENTLY NOBODY CHECKED

Well, his immortality's gone, so in a sense, no he didn't.

[Riftwolf]

Well, his immortality's gone, so in a sense, no he didn't.

He definitely was never seen again after the Red Year, and his city got wrecked, but for the few years between the end of Morrowind and the Red Year (5-6 years later), he was Schrödinger's False God.

It'll be interesting if they ever make TES6 to see how the civil war subplot in Skyrim panned out. And the Dark Brotherhood's. Every other faction is pretty inconsequential from a worldwide view.

[danielxcutter]

Cthulhu essentially having "You're all dead" as its statblock in CoC comes to mind in comparison.

Archfiends do tend to be slightly less "rocks fall everyone dies".

I do suppose D&D statblocks are printed with the assumption that at least some games will have them be fought or killed. Wish Elder Evils upped the CR of the titular monsters a bit though.

[Emanick]

Archfiends do tend to be slightly less "rocks fall everyone dies".

I do suppose D&D statblocks are printed with the assumption that at least some games will have them be fought or killed. Wish Elder Evils upped the CR of the titular monsters a bit though.

For what it's worth, my 5e D&D party fought and killed an archfiend earlier this year. We were level 20, but still. It's quite doable, at least in 5th edition.

We also had a Very Special Episode where we all played a bunch of liches with staves that let us cast meteor swarm, weird, true polymorph or (in my case) wish and defeated all the archfiends (the CE ones, anyway). That was a bit silly, though, and probably shouldn't count.

[Metastachydium]

For what it's worth, my 5e D&D party fought and killed an archfiend earlier this year. We were level 20, but still. It's quite doable, at least in 5th edition.

We also had a Very Special Episode where we all played a bunch of liches with staves that let us cast meteor swarm, weird, true polymorph or (in my case) wish and defeated all the archfiends (the CE ones, anyway). That was a bit silly, though, and probably shouldn't count.

Eh, so far as I can tell, 5e has nerfed a whole lot of supposedly powerful things into oblivion. 3e Tiamat has standard 3e divine stuff plus a ridiculous amount of powerful SLAs plus 20th level cleric and sorcerer casting in addition to an SR above 40, an AC above 60 and a metric ton of natural attacks. Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, 5e Tiamat is… Kind of big and has some breath weapons? I've seen people argue that a lucky level 14 party can beat her in a straight fight.

[danielxcutter]

You sure that’s actually Tiamat herself? And not an aspect or avatar or something? Those tend to be much weaker than the true being.

[Psyren]

You sure that’s actually Tiamat herself? And not an aspect or avatar or something? Those tend to be much weaker than the true being.

For whatever ridiculous reason the module author confirmed on Twitter that that was "the real deal." I'll never understand WotC's obsession with repeatedly trying and failing to stat their actual deities.

[RatElemental]

For whatever ridiculous reason the module author confirmed on Twitter that that was "the real deal." I'll never understand WotC's obsession with repeatedly trying and failing to stat their actual deities.

Kinda hard to fight gods if they don't have stats, at least in 3.5e you had to be epic yourself to have a chance against most of them. And thanks to SDAs you probably didn't have much of one against them even then.

[Psyren]

Kinda hard to fight gods if they don't have stats, at least in 3.5e you had to be epic yourself to have a chance against most of them. And thanks to SDAs you probably didn't have much of one against them even then.

Yeah I get that, but WotC's deity stats are pretty much always underwhelming and end up undermining the deity in question and/or making them look like they don't know what they're doing. (Well, even moreso.)

Statting avatars and aspects I'm 100% down with, and then beating the avatar/aspect causes {magic plot thing} to happen that makes it possible to remove the deity from power or seal it away etc. An avatar can be as beatable as the plot needs it to be. But statting the actual deity almost always just leads to the question of how they were in charge as long as they were with such unoptimized builds.

[danielxcutter]

For what it’s worth, a lot of non-divine beings tend to be both just as unoptimized and also have considerably worse stats, so there’s that.