Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[Niveus Candidus]

The recent fight with Serini has me questioning Roy's value to the team. While I do not hold it against him that he failed his poison saving throw, which seems to be in the Epic scores, I struggle to remember his victories even when positioned against an opponent in his chosen area of expertise: Melee Combat. Off the top of my head, he threw a disinterested and overconfident Xykon into the gate, watched a half-ogre walk off a cliff and tricked a half-orc so legendarily low on INT he was manipulated by Elan to take a fight he was losing badly. Other than that, he seems to have been brutalized in every encounter, with the struggle against the frost giants being a particularly embarrassing showing. I understand Tarquin was Epic and Roy has a level loss to a 9th level spell to the face and a lot of d6s of falling damage but could we see him at least hold his own for a few moments before the old man tosses him in a circle like a rag doll. or let him get a few hits in before the Monk-Paladin fury of slap-smites him around? Or just let him succeed at the fort save against the summoned Nightcrawler?

On top of that, I have come to highly question his leadership talents. There are rules of comedy for every wacky way the Order have gotten into but we're at the point where the story seems to focus on Roy needing to take advice from Vampires, a Bard with a puppet who's supposed to be the comedic relief and finally Haley, who is really showing her value to the team after holding things together for the entirety of Don't Split the Party.

So I'll ask, since there are few communities with better statistical analysis than this: does Roy add value to the Order, now that they have their mission and his blood oath isn't the driving motivation any longer or is Greenhilt the Fighter the Truenamer of the group?

[brian 333]

To be fair, the entire party has bungled its way to the top. That seems to be their schtick. You have called out Roy for something they all do.

[Peelee]

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

[hroþila]

Xykon was disinterested and overconfident, but that was still Roy single-handedly defeating an Epic lich.
It's easy to trick Thog, it's harder to trick him in the right way that leads to your victory.
He got Smite-slapped around by Miko when he was brandishing a big stick, but easily beat her when he had his sword (true, she wasn't a paladin anymore, but as Roy pointed out, the two factors contributed).
Both his fighting skill and his leadership contributed to the Order pushing back Tarquin & co. from the pyramid. Tarquin acknowledged this.
I'd say the fight against the frost giants was a perfect example of Roy doing well? He tanked both of them, managed to kill one of them and even after he lost his weapon he came out on top (with Elan's help).
And listening to his teammates and respecting their input is a good thing. Ever since he started doing it, Roy has been remarkably good at discerning between good and bad input from the likes of Elan and Belkar. I don't see the issue here.

I dunno, I feel like you're cherrypicking.

[r2d2go]

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

I mean in this instance, he hasn't. He went down in a single round to poison; Haley has been demonstrably much better at tanking here.

I would argue if your purpose is being a literal bag of meat to tank hits, and you can't even do that consistently, you're pretty useless.

That said, I disagree with the OP as well - Roy nearly solo'd the encounter against two leveled frost giants, one of which is stronger than the other, which has to be at least EL 13; as a 14th level character that's winning deadly fights, CR-wise. Of course, CR is terrible, but so is everyone's build. He also has a dedicated anti-undead build - in the vampire fight he very nearly won single handedly after half the party got wiped, and that was against the entire rest of his party plus more vampires. Given that one of the main conflicts coming up if they win this is against Xykon, I expect him to perform much better against his favored type of enemy.

[enq]

You're damn right he is!

[danielxcutter]

I do suppose this fight was designed to make the non-Roy non-caster members of the party shine, but I do wish there’d been a better way to do that than poison. Yes, there wasn’t really a better way, but frankly the only reason this fight isn’t already over is because Serini wasted the first half of the ambush shooting 90% of her bolts at Haley. If that poison can drop Roy, she’d be able to take out the entire rest of the Order in two rounds, tops, and then Sunny’d be able to drop boulders on her or something.

I do wonder why she focused that much on dropping Haley. Even if the full casters are useless in an AMF, making sure Belkar(a ranger with throwing daggers) was out of the fight for good wouldn’t have been too hard.

[Peelee]

I mean in this instance, he hasn't. He went down in a single round to poison; Haley has been demonstrably much better at tanking here.

I would argue if your purpose is being a literal bag of meat to tank hits, and you can't even do that consistently, you're pretty useless.

He does do it pretty consistently, though. This is one of the incredibly few, if only, instances where he doesn't. Not being able to do something literally 100% of the time is hardly a failing.

Not that I'm saying that is his sole purpose of course, but he does fulfill that role well in addition to the other rolls he occupies.

[King of Nowhere]

don't forget the durkula fight. roy faced a high level cleric vampire and held his own, even before activating superpowers and winning.

in fact, i'd say roy being disabled so often is exactly a measure of how useful he is. when rich disables a character, he wants that character out because he could solve the plot too easily. notice how often the casters are removed from action - with V skipping the Girard gate sequence entirely. roy failing his saving throw against poison, roy losing his sword against the giants, roy being isolated from the rest of the party and stuck in the arena against thog (and without his weapon), all those point to roy being able to solve the problems too easily if he had not been gimped by story reasons

[Precure]

Roy never was a good fighter, he wasn't any good at fights. Hell, he was even bullied in Fighter College and didn't fight back. His main strength is his brain capabilities and he won most of his fights thanks to that. That's one of few things Eugene was right about: Roy would fare better as a magic user.

[littlebum2002]

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

And apparently he's a bad leader because he listens to other people for advice. Even though literally every "advice for leaders" column ever written has this as one of the best things a leader can do.

[Liquor Box]

Roy:

• Was the last member of the party standing in the fight against the Vampires.
• Was on top in the fight against the frost giants.
• Was getting the better of Vampire Durkon one on one
• Defeated Thog one on one
• Defeated Belkar one on one
• Captured the Linear Guild wizard
• Defeated Sabine
• Killed an Owlbear
• Defeated fallen Miko
• Defeated Half Ogre

He did lose a few as well (Xykon killed him, Tarquin's party had him beat, serini has him unconscious), but often to enemies that were simply more powerful than him. I might be missing a couple, but it seems to be only this time that he's out of action in a fight he should be doing well in - but everyone rolls a one every now and then.

I'd say that Elan is the least combat effective of the Order, probably followed by Hayley

[Emanick]

don't forget the durkula fight. roy faced a high level cleric vampire and held his own, even before activating superpowers and winning.

in fact, i'd say roy being disabled so often is exactly a measure of how useful he is. when rich disables a character, he wants that character out because he could solve the plot too easily. notice how often the casters are removed from action - with V skipping the Girard gate sequence entirely. roy failing his saving throw against poison, roy losing his sword against the giants, roy being isolated from the rest of the party and stuck in the arena against thog (and without his weapon), all those point to roy being able to solve the problems too easily if he had not been gimped by story reasons

I'd argue that the truth is slightly different. Roy isn't exactly overpowered, so he's not necessarily at risk of solving the plot too easily (with some exceptions - "isolate Roy because he could solve the plot too easily" is explicitly Nale's plan at one point). That said, the comic is a visual medium and there's only so many ways you can depict somebody fighting with a sword to overcome enemies. It's generally more interesting to watch Roy figure out how to overcome enemies by thinking on his feet than it is to watch him simply swing a sword around, and when he lacks a sword or is otherwise at a disadvantage, you get a chance to see him at his best - being forced to use his brain to figure out how best to address the problem in front of him, then using his body to physically dismember whatever is standing in his way.

For instance, the arena fight against Thog wouldn't have been a cakewalk even if Roy had had his sword, but if he had, it would have come across as a pretty even fight with no obvious twists. It was entertaining largely because Roy was working with the handicap of having poor equipment (a mediocre weapon that he hadn't specialized in and no armor - both factors that hurt him more than they hurt Thog) and had to puzzle out how to overcome this structural disadvantage. Similarly, the fight against the silicon elemental and the vampires' summoned fiends wasn't really a situation where Roy had to be nerfed, but it was more entertaining as a result of the fact that Roy had to keep switching weapons to take on the enemy. I still remember the mix of emotions I felt when I watched him be reduced to fighting with a coffin lid in a desperate attempt to keep his party alive, and yet still do pretty well with it. Really, that whole extended fight sequence at the climax of Book 5 is a masterpiece of action and drama.

The current situation is a bit different, granted, because Roy is not just disadvantaged, he's out of the fight altogether. That's sad, but it does give the rest of the party more space to shine. If Roy were still up, Haley would probably be trying to coordinate with him rather than just doing her own thing out of necessity, but since he's down, we get to see what might be my favorite-ever example of her thinking on her feet and tackling the problem, shall we say, kinetically.

[Metastachydium]

(I'm more worried about Belkar, personally. He's a melee powerhouse and he can basically just steamroll ludicrous amounts of opponents without breaking a sweat, but boss fights are not his forte (he doesn't tend to fare well against major named antagonists, the only two exceptions I can think of right now are his defeating Miko in WaXP and his effortlessly handling both Bozzok and Crystal, and then wiping the floor with the latter in DStP), and this book promises to be heavy on boss fights while I can't quite see where an army of mooks he could plow through could appear 'round the pole.)

[Quartz]

Didn't Roy also defeat a whole heap of mummies?

[Emanick]

(I'm more worried about Belkar, personally. He's a melee powerhouse and he can basically just steamroll ludicrous amounts of opponents without breaking a sweat, but boss fights are not his forte (he doesn't tend to fare well against major named antagonists, the only two exceptions I can think of right now are his defeating Miko in WaXP and his effortlessly handling both Bozzok and Crystal, and then wiping the floor with the latter in DStP), and this book promises to be heavy on boss fights while I can't quite see where an army of mooks he could plow through could appear 'round the pole.)

I think he and Bloodfeast will probably wind up going toe-to-toe against Oona. He can't do much against Xykon, and Redcloak would probably be able to disable him easily (although a Mind Blank spell on him seems like it would go a long way), but he and his allosaurus should be capable of doing significant damage against a bugbear Beast Master. In a game I doubt he'd be favored, but the narrative has some flexibility when it comes to the Belkster.

[Fish]

This is a story. And this is a scene in a story which is not, at least for now, designed to highlight the effectiveness of Roy. It may be designed to highlight the amount the team has improved since the last time they faced an encounter without Roy, I dunno. But a story is a made thing, not a demonstration of tactics and probability in a real situation.

[ORione]

The Order accomplished basically nothing for months while Roy was dead.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The Order accomplished basically nothing for months while Roy was dead.

Ran an underground resistance movement; preserved the life of an important leader and ally; killed an ancient dragon; all but overthrew a thieves guild; resurrected their missing member...

Yes, I agree. They did bog all over that period. It's a good thing someone else was able to resurrect Roy, or they would never amount to anything again.

[Peelee]

Ran an underground resistance movement; preserved the life of an important leader and ally; killed an ancient dragon; all but overthrew a thieves guild; resurrected their missing member...

Yes, I agree. They did bog all over that period. It's a good thing someone else was able to resurrect Roy, or they would never amount to anything again.

The knew what the Gates were, their global importance, and that Xykon/Redcloak wants to control them.

Nothing they did during that time did anything at all to move closer to stopping Team Evil until Roy was back, at which point they immediately started trying to stop Team Evil once again.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The knew what the Gates were, their global importance, and that Xykon/Redcloak wants to control them.

Nothing they did during that time did anything at all to move closer to stopping Team Evil until Roy was back, at which point they immediately started trying to stop Team Evil once again.

Correct. But they were divided into three groups, unable to contact each other and had other immediate concerns. Declaring that they did nothing is patently false.

[Ionathus]

Ran an underground resistance movement; preserved the life of an important leader and ally; killed an ancient dragon; all but overthrew a thieves guild; resurrected their missing member...

Yes, I agree. They did bog all over that period. It's a good thing someone else was able to resurrect Roy, or they would never amount to anything again.

So in order, that's:

• treading water
• treading water (literally, because they were at sea, har har)
• surviving a revenge plot (with a temp solution that cost V their family)
• actually dealing with a personal nemesis (until 2 books later)
• getting back to their original status (minus 1 level on their leader)

I don't count "defending Hinjo" or "rescuing random innocents" as terribly noteworthy accomplishments for adventurers of their level. They exercised little to no agency throughout most of that time: both the Azure City duo and the Azure Fleet trio acknowledge that they're all just pretty much twiddling their thumbs waiting, and doing mild heroics to keep busy.

Elan and Durkon did practically nothing, Haley and Belkar saved some scattered Azurites and weakened the Thieves' Guild, and V did far more harm than good. Their ill-advised deal with the IFCC (and their personal demons) killed the entire Draketooth clan and uncountable innocents, and gave the IFCC a limited ability to hamper the Order going forward. Roy's absence on the team and the destruction of Girard's gate are directly linked as a result.

So, yeah, I'd argue that Roy's absence after the Battle of Azure City wasn't just a DELAY on the quest to save the world: it was in fact a net LOSS for the quest.

[Mike Havran]

Huh. I would argue that Roy is overpowered now. He tanks hits until the cows come home (unless it is double dose of sleep poison that makes Lien go down instantly), he instakills high level vampire cleric Sandstone, he can even heal himself. And let us not forget hat he is basically the only hero whose plans advance the main plot. He is not useless, he is overused.

... V did far more harm than good. Their ill-advised deal with the IFCC (and their personal demons) killed the entire Draketooth clan and uncountable innocents, and gave the IFCC a limited ability to hamper the Order going forward. Roy's absence on the team and the destruction of Girard's gate are directly linked as a result.

Let us not forget that the Big Bad only resumed his Evil plan because V had pissed him off.

[Manga Shoggoth]

So, yeah, I'd argue that Roy's absence after the Battle of Azure City wasn't just a DELAY on the quest to save the world: it was in fact a net LOSS for the quest.

And this is the bit you are missing. They didn't "do nothing". Saying that is hugely dismissive of an entire book's worth of story. They "did nothing quest related". The story isn't just about the quest.

Of course they should immediately abandon the Azurites (their strongest allies) the first chance they get and meet up at... Oh wait. They don't know where each other are, the only one of their group who has the overall picture is dead and can't tell them...

It's not like they weren't trying to get back together - V was driving themselves insane in their attempts to contact Haley (with the results that you rightly cite), and Haley had no way of contacting them in reverse, so her best option was probably to stay where she was and do what good she could there. Likewise Durkon, if Sending wasn't working.

Let us not forget that the Big Bad only resumed his Evil plan because V had pissed him off.

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little.

[Mike Havran]

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little.

Eventually is quite a long time. Redcloak stalled Xykon for better part of the year without problem. At that point, they were unaware that somebody is working against them and neither had to worry about getting too old or anything.

[Jason]

Judging just from this battle you could say Durkon is useless, since he failed to get Roy back on his feet and got stoned again, or that V is useless since the prismatic spray doesn't seem to have done anything to Sunny.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think he and Bloodfeast will probably wind up going toe-to-toe against Oona. He can't do much against Xykon, and Redcloak would probably be able to disable him easily (although a Mind Blank spell on him seems like it would go a long way), but he and his allosaurus should be capable of doing significant damage against a bugbear Beast Master. In a game I doubt he'd be favored, but the narrative has some flexibility when it comes to the Belkster.

Honestly Belkar against the Bugbears (In addition to sounding like an epic band name), would complete the trifecta of him killing a bunch of goblins andthen hobgoblins later.

[Precure]

Actually, Redcloak was only stalling Xykon until Gobbotopia is stabilized, and by the time they found the phylactery Redcloak was already done that before that and he even knew the resistance's secret HQ already. So, V's intervention actually stalled them more.

[Mike Havran]

Actually, Redcloak was only stalling Xykon until Gobbotopia is stabilized, and by the time they found the phylactery Redcloak was already done that before that and he even knew the resistance's secret HQ already. So, V's intervention actually stalled them more.

I have no idea on what do you base assumpions that:
1. Redcloak knew about Resistance base before V attacked (worrying about Resistance was assignment of Tsukiko, after all).
2. Redcloak considers Goobotopia to be stable (much less that he considered it to be stable before they lost phylactery and before Cliffport recognized their state)

Because to me, Redcloak acted quiantly until Xykon got mad and forced him to both find the phlylactery, eliminate the risk that Resistance finds it before him, and hastily prepare the state for his immediate departure. If it were not for V, Reddie would be quite comfortable with strengtening the state even further (for example, building a self-sufficient economy).

[Ionathus]

And this is the bit you are missing. They didn't "do nothing". Saying that is hugely dismissive of an entire book's worth of story. They "did nothing quest related". The story isn't just about the quest.

Of course they should immediately abandon the Azurites (their strongest allies) the first chance they get and meet up at... Oh wait. They don't know where each other are, the only one of their group who has the overall picture is dead and can't tell them...

It's not like they weren't trying to get back together - V was driving themselves insane in their attempts to contact Haley (with the results that you rightly cite), and Haley had no way of contacting them in reverse, so her best option was probably to stay where she was and do what good she could there. Likewise Durkon, if Sending wasn't working.

My dude, I am not attacking DStP or its characters here. I enjoyed the hell out of that book. I understand why the characters did the things they did -- all of them, truly. Those decisions made for some very enjoyable, character-driven stories, and the people whose lives they saved are certainly in a better place because of it.

But we ain't talking about whether or not the Order was a group of bad people. We're talking about whether the Order was stagnant (or even counterproductive) while its leader was out of commission. And that is absolutely 100% the case, even if some of them were making ineffective attempts to reunite. That's not a dig at them, it's just a fact. All the rescued Azurites in the world aren't going to matter if the planet goes kablooey next Tuesday because the Order didn't get its act together on the Gates. And Roy was the only one who could help them progress on that topic.

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little.

I'm slightly unclear about the timetable, but hasn't it only been two or three weeks since Roy was resurrected? If Redcloak had already been playing Civic Leader for 6 months at that point, it's entirely believable he could have kept doing so for another one or two. If Redcloak had delayed for just one more month, the Order would've beat them to Kraagor's Gate (though who knows if it would've changed anything). The timeline we're talking about is pretty condensed in these last 3 books.