Future of a Low Magic Setting

[MrZJunior]

This is something I have been wrestling with for a while and would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Barring some event like civilizational collapse or a magical disaster, I would expect that a low magic setting would become more magical over time. Magic items don't wear out, so while magic swords might have been a rare luxury at some point in the past, we should expect they would accumulate over time and become more common. Even a low production of magic items would add up over time.

[Tvtyrant]

This is something I have been wrestling with for a while and would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Barring some event like civilizational collapse or a magical disaster, I would expect that a low magic setting would become more magical over time. Magic items don't wear out, so while magic swords might have been a rare luxury at some point in the past, we should expect they would accumulate over time and become more common. Even a low production of magic items would add up over time.

Depends on the setting I think. If you have monsters that eat magic items like Dragons, Beholders, Disenchanters, etc. It might not. Also the rate of population growth could be as fast or faster then the making of magic items.

[Mechalich]

Magic items can still be damaged or destroyed, it's just somewhat harder than normal items. Items would only accumulate if the rate of creation is greater than the rate of destruction.

Items used in battle or 'adventuring' are likely to be destroyed fairly readily, or even if not destroyed, lost forever when adventurers are killed (ex. if the wizard gets eaten by a bulette, the bulette eventually excretes whatever they were carrying and the items end up buried in some random place in the forest, unlikely to ever be found).

The sort of items that are likely to accumulate are highly-durable utility items. In particular the kind of area benefit items found in the Stronghold Builder's Guide or the lairwards of the Draconomicon are likely to slowly proliferate because they increase productivity and therefore produce the kind of profits that can be cycled back into more items.

For example, one can imagine colonizing the arctic one 100' dome at a time over thousands of years in this way.

[brian 333]

Consider the idea of ancestral magic items. People may not know that grandpa's ring is magic, but they know that five generations of the Luck family's patriarchs have worn it.

What is the goal you wish to accomplish with this? Gear limits what adventurers can do: readily available +5 armor of fire immunity makes red dragons less of a threat, but potions, scrolls, and spells can do the same. So if your intent is to require more strategic planning to succeed, then don't worry about it and keep items rare. As others have said, magic items can be destroyed. (Or in my example, made unavailable to PCs through a cultural tendency to hoard.)

The DM directly controls magic item availability, so decide what you want, explain it how you want, and your players will adapt.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'd see the world you describe going through three phases:

pre market Magic items are made, and only bought and sold as a rare exception. The ability to make magic items will spread as much as it can. Kings will sponsor the crafters as that it the only sure way to acquire magic items.

Healthy market Magic items have a price, and production will vary based on price.

Saturated market It will generally be much cheaper to buy an existing magic item than making a new one. Any new craft will be special requests (left handed Bohemian earspoon with the family crest on it). Crafters will diminish in number.

Post crafters Something will disrupt the ability for (the small number of) crafters to pass their knowledge on and it will be lost. Big disruptions are common in fantasy, but a big disruption isn't needed. Presumably magic item making is a complicated, expensive, and (at this point) unprofitable process, so something as mundane as budget cuts could be the final straw.

[noob]

I'd see the world you describe going through three phases:

pre market Magic items are made, and only bought and sold as a rare exception. The ability to make magic items will spread as much as it can. Kings will sponsor the crafters as that it the only sure way to acquire magic items.

Healthy market Magic items have a price, and production will vary based on price.

Saturated market It will generally be much cheaper to buy an existing magic item than making a new one. Any new craft will be special requests (left handed Bohemian earspoon with the family crest on it). Crafters will diminish in number.

Post crafters Something will disrupt the ability for (the small number of) crafters to pass their knowledge on and it will be lost. Big disruptions are common in fantasy, but a big disruption isn't needed. Presumably magic item making is a complicated, expensive, and (at this point) unprofitable process, so something as mundane as budget cuts could be the final straw.

This is assuming a stable population but in the case of a slow but steady population growth(which was the case of the real world for a long time) then there would be a continuous need for magic item production through the simple factor of population growth.

[Tvtyrant]

I'd see the world you describe going through three phases:

pre market Magic items are made, and only bought and sold as a rare exception. The ability to make magic items will spread as much as it can. Kings will sponsor the crafters as that it the only sure way to acquire magic items.

Healthy market Magic items have a price, and production will vary based on price.

Saturated market It will generally be much cheaper to buy an existing magic item than making a new one. Any new craft will be special requests (left handed Bohemian earspoon with the family crest on it). Crafters will diminish in number.

Post crafters Something will disrupt the ability for (the small number of) crafters to pass their knowledge on and it will be lost. Big disruptions are common in fantasy, but a big disruption isn't needed. Presumably magic item making is a complicated, expensive, and (at this point) unprofitable process, so something as mundane as budget cuts could be the final straw.

Also shifts in religion and morality. My current setting has almost no new permanent magic items being made, as they require massive human sacrifice to create. A series of Heart Wars were waged in the past as societies used each other up as batteries for magic item creation, and now the process is banned nearly everywhere and wars are waged to stomp it out when it occurs.

Instead Artificers sell Trinkets and Infusions and maintain the magic for a set amount of time, which is the bedrock of the magic economy.

[noob]

Also shifts in religion and morality. My current setting has almost no new permanent magic items being made, as they require massive human sacrifice to create. A series of Heart Wars were waged in the past as societies used each other up as batteries for magic item creation, and now the process is banned nearly everywhere and wars are waged to stomp it out when it occurs.

Instead Artificers sell Trinkets and Infusions and maintain the magic for a set amount of time, which is the bedrock of the magic economy.

So the expression "who did you have to kill to get this" is a lot more true in that setting.

[Tvtyrant]

So the expression "who did you have to kill to get this" is a lot more true in that setting.

Essentially! Also those sacrificed return from the dead, so the world is literally filled with ruins that house magical artifacts. Stealing those artifacts will make you powerful but also cause you to be haunted by undead attacks, so tomb robbing adventurers is a legitimate but terrifying career.

[MrZJunior]

What is the goal you wish to accomplish with this?

Honestly, I don't remember exactly what led to me asking this question.

I've been rolling some ideas around about running a campaign where the players are members of a formal military. The state they would be serving is quite an old one, so I believe I was wondering why there wouldn't be chests of magic rings and protective amulets sitting around to be dolled out as part of standard kit.

Though I suppose the most obvious answer is that the military is hoarding its magic items against national emergency.

The DM directly controls magic item availability, so decide what you want, explain it how you want, and your players will adapt.

This is true, but I like the worlds I build to make some sort of sense, even if only for myself.

[Mechalich]

I've been rolling some ideas around about running a campaign where the players are members of a formal military. The state they would be serving is quite an old one, so I believe I was wondering why there wouldn't be chests of magic rings and protective amulets sitting around to be dolled out as part of standard kit.

Plausibly they would be, though perhaps they would only be available to elite units or officers.

It was actually typical, in the militaries of the ancient world, for the equipment of officers and elite units (imperial guards, specialized allies, etc.) to have equipment that was drastically superior to that of the common soldier. This was particularly common in both classical antiquity (the armies of Rome and Persia and so forth) and in East Asian militaries (especially China), where the demographics and agricultural dynamics allowed for massive, but poorly equipped armies. This contrasts with the medieval European situation in which the general scenario was quite small but well equipped armies. Additionally, professional armies often have rules against looting, which is to say not that enemies aren't looted, but that looted gear is considered the property of the army/state and is redistributed at the end of the battle/campaign to soldiers and officers according to contribution rather than it simply going to whomever yanked it off the bodies.

What this means, in gaming, is that a game in which the characters are professional soldiers should have a different loot structure than traditional D&D.

[MrZJunior]

Plausibly they would be, though perhaps they would only be available to elite units or officers.

It was actually typical, in the militaries of the ancient world, for the equipment of officers and elite units (imperial guards, specialized allies, etc.) to have equipment that was drastically superior to that of the common soldier. This was particularly common in both classical antiquity (the armies of Rome and Persia and so forth) and in East Asian militaries (especially China), where the demographics and agricultural dynamics allowed for massive, but poorly equipped armies. This contrasts with the medieval European situation in which the general scenario was quite small but well equipped armies. Additionally, professional armies often have rules against looting, which is to say not that enemies aren't looted, but that looted gear is considered the property of the army/state and is redistributed at the end of the battle/campaign to soldiers and officers according to contribution rather than it simply going to whomever yanked it off the bodies.

What this means, in gaming, is that a game in which the characters are professional soldiers should have a different loot structure than traditional D&D.

The setting I have in mind for the game would be based on late 19th century Europe with all the Imperialism that entails. So, plenty of looting to go around. But you make a good point, it would be done on a more systematic and organized basis than the typical D&D smash and grab. Something I will have to keep in mind.

[Mechalich]

The setting I have in mind for the game would be based on late 19th century Europe with all the Imperialism that entails. So, plenty of looting to go around. But you make a good point, it would be done on a more systematic and organized basis than the typical D&D smash and grab. Something I will have to keep in mind.

Ah, well that changes the circumstances. By the late 19th century mass production was in full swing, which meant armies were usually issued roughly identical gear produced in vast factories and the differences in quality were largely minimized. Also, the development of the market economy shifted looting away from equipment and to fungible items that could easily be resold. There's a fine literary example late in Les Miserables, when Thenardier loots the dead for various 'trinkets' such as jewelry, watches, and even medals and teeth containing precious metals. Looting of this nature appears to have been quite widespread during 19th century warfare, while looting for equipment declined greatly and was limited to conflicts where the parties possessed widely variant technological capabilities. Even that often offered little utility, since looting a rifle your civilization cannot produce does you no good if you can't also produce the ammunition to actually fire it (rifles with specialized cartridge ammunition presented this problem to a number of societies).

[MrZJunior]

By the late 19th century mass production was in full swing, which meant armies were usually issued roughly identical gear produced in vast factories

And while I don't want magic items (with a couple exceptions) to be subject to mass production if the military has been accumulating magic items for three hundred or more years you could probably still issue each man with roughly the same magic bits and bobs.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I've been rolling some ideas around about running a campaign where the players are members of a formal military. The state they would be serving is quite an old one, so I believe I was wondering why there wouldn't be chests of magic rings and protective amulets sitting around to be dolled out as part of standard kit.

So I'm imagining that there's a warrior aristocracy that formed and obtained control over most of the magic items and pass them down through families. Non-nobles don't have the wealth to make new items.

There could even be something in the magic involved that makes it easier to pass items down through the family than to run a state arsenal. The mechanism could also explain why items can't just be bought and sold like other goods (if you don't want that).

[brian 333]

Pre modern militaries usually required officers to buy their own gear. Until the 1900s and industrialized warfare, this was almost universal. We got the blazer jacket because the captain of the HMS Blazer bought jackets for his crew.

Nelson was said to have bought powder and shot for his guns so his crew could engage in target practice.

So, issued gear for common soldiers and purchased gear for officers would be normal.

Back on topic: what do you think about item-magic having a time limit? A magic item lasts for 100 years and a day. Cheap magic items last for a decade and a day. Expensive magic items last for a mellenia and a day. Your magic items of old simply time out and can't be recharged.

Great-grandpa Greypommel's heirloom sword used to flame, but now it's just a masterwork blade. (Or it has lost its temper because Cousin Claude thought putting it in the fireplace would make it flame again? Poor, dumb Claude...)

[MrZJunior]

Back on topic: what do you think about item-magic having a time limit? A magic item lasts for 100 years and a day. Cheap magic items last for a decade and a day. Expensive magic items last for a mellenia and a day. Your magic items of old simply time out and can't be recharged.

Great-grandpa Greypommel's heirloom sword used to flame, but now it's just a masterwork blade. (Or it has lost its temper because Cousin Claude thought putting it in the fireplace would make it flame again? Poor, dumb Claude...)

Well, I've been planing on this campaign taking place in the future of a game I am currently running. The party has found some magic items in ancient ruins and there has been no mention of deterioration.




Playing off what Mechalich said earlier, if in the past only elite units got magic equipment then the military would probably have only a small stockpile. They had a limited budget and building up more expensive equipment than required would not be a good use of money.

With the modern military de emphasizing differences in eliteness they will want to start equipping all their troops with magic, but low production volumes mean they are taking a long time to roll out the new gear to everyone. They'll want to hoard the stuff until they get together enough to start issuing it en mass.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Well, I've been planing on this campaign taking place in the future of a game I am currently running. The party has found some magic items in ancient ruins and there has been no mention of deterioration.

Survivorship bias. Maybe 95% of magic items from the ancients were destroyed.

Also, maybe the ancients made better lasting enchantments?

With the modern military de emphasizing differences in eliteness they will want to start equipping all their troops with magic, but low production volumes mean they are taking a long time to roll out the new gear to everyone. They'll want to hoard the stuff until they get together enough to start issuing it en mass.

That process only makes sense if the making/hoarding process is only a few years, not decades or centuries.

Imagine there's a war half way through the hoarding process, are you going to stick to your plan and keep the majority of your magic items in a stockpile?

[Lemmy]

That depends on what you mean by "Low Magic'.

A place where the only limitation to how common or powerful magic is is how well it's understood and applied, would naturally evolve into a more magical place... But then, it's not a "low magic setting", it's a low technology setting. In the same way that we don't call IRL ancient times "low electricity times" just because people didn't know how to use it.

Now if the setting has some other limitation to magic (e.g.: only a certain amount of magic can exist or be used at any given time, or it's just too costly or inefficient to use), then the setting could arguably stay "low magic" indefinitely, but it likely would see magic usage become more efficient, although not more powerful, if that makes sense.

And of course, there are many settings where magic is either becoming more powerful and common or going the other way, and slowly draining from the world.

[KineticDiplomat]

As Lemy points out, this isn't low magic in the classic sense. It's a high magic setting with fewer magical resources. The difference lies in how you treat magic, not just the rate of production.

High magic treats it as either a science with different natural laws, or a capability so universally present that the assumption someone can do magic is like the assumption in a small group someone will have a decent deadlift. You can categorize it, study it, harness it, and anyone with the will and the skill can eventually shoot lightning from their fingers, or maybe just forge something cool. Think most D&D.

In that setting, you just follow a basic rational optimization into the future - at some point society hits a it's Marginal Revolution. Then, that which is efficient to magic, magics as an appropriate prodot seeking curve. That which tech can do more efficiently at scale becomes the preferred option.

In classic "Low Magic" settings, magic doesn't work that way. It is beyond the Ken of man, or only available through harnessing barely understood and alien force that is indifferent or possibly actively hostile to humanity. When man does harness it, it comes through ritual and risk, with arcane knowledge serving as but one small part of the feat of actually doing magic. You don't make another Excalibur. You can't. You can't even imagine how you would go about it. If someone makes a fancy ring, it's the act of a near deity. And no one knows how to become Merlin or Gandalf - to huamnity they just are what they are, a weird separate species of human.

[Tvtyrant]

Other ways low magic could be different from early magic:

• Spells are alive and require being personally convinced to do things.
• There are a limited number of spell spirits, so while magical essence is infinite only a fixed number of people can access it.
• Magic eats the world in some way, see Dark Sun as an example (or Netherese desert.)

[Kaius]

This is something I have been wrestling with for a while and would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Barring some event like civilizational collapse or a magical disaster, I would expect that a low magic setting would become more magical over time. Magic items don't wear out, so while magic swords might have been a rare luxury at some point in the past, we should expect they would accumulate over time and become more common. Even a low production of magic items would add up over time.

If you look at Middle Earth as a good example of a low magic setting, you can see that most of the magic items aren't being made any more...at all. Most of them are from previous ages, when there were usually quite a bit more of them, but they were either irretrievably lost, or destroyed violently. Whatever someone happens to find becomes a cherished treasure passed on for generations, but there really isn't anyone doing magic item creation anymore.