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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Belial_the_Leveler's Avatar

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    Default Magnificent Mansion counters

    Does your wizard player use MMM repeatedly to foil your campaign time-tables and encounters per day? Here are a few tricks to turn the tables on the wizard:

    Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is.

    Nightmare: The wizard can't rest for 24 hours.

    Dispel Magic: While the portal to the mansion is shut and made invisible, it still exists in the Prime. It is also the point of origin of the spell so a dispel magic that includes it ends the spell. This can forcibly evict the wizard from within while he's sleeping and surprised and without having prepared spells.

    Gateseal: You seal the portal so the wizard can't get out. Unless he knows the wish or plane shift spells he's trapped for a very long time. Ofcourse, he can attempt to dispel the spell or dismiss it while inside. What happens when the extradimensional space he's in vanishes while he can't get out is up to you.

    Antimagic Field: You and your fighter minion move next to the portal and you cast antimagic field or antimagic aura. The sleeping, surprised, undressed wizard suddenly drops in an antimagic sphere and is captured.

    Prismatic Wall: You make one right before the exit portal. The wizard exits-and passes through thus is slain.
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2007-11-16 at 07:38 PM.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Stuff
    Wow. DM fiating a player to death for using his class abilities. Thats pretty low.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    It's a good thing that everyone always sees those invisible hidden doors (two separate adjectives, they should be hidden somewhere no one else is going to find them) Otherwise a Wizard might be able to sleep in peace.

    Also, AMF would I believe not do that. I think that it would just suppress the Planar Portal that is the entrance. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't reach into other planes and drag things out. (Take a look at Bag of Holding for example.)
    Last edited by Kaelik; 2007-11-16 at 07:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Wow. DM fiating a player to death for using his class abilities. Thats pretty low.
    Nope. That's "BBEG increasing effectiveness by using his own class abilities". See, if party wizard can use his class abilities to gain easy rests and thus not worry about resource expenditure then the BBEG is also entitled to using his own class abilities to find the wizard's rest place and exploit its weakness.

    Also, AMF would I believe not do that. I think that it would just suppress the Planar Portal that is the entrance.
    The point of origin of the spell is in the prime material-thus using an AMF that includes it surpresses the entire spell.
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2007-11-16 at 07:31 PM.


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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Nope. That's "BBEG increasing effectiveness by using his own class abilities". See, if party wizard can use his class abilities to gain easy rests and thus not worry about resource expenditure then the BBEG is also entitled to using his own class abilities to find the wizard's rest place and exploit its weakness.
    Unless he you know, happens to be an elf, or have Mindblank (since he has MMM that seems likely.)

    You'll have a hard time finding the Wizard while he's on a different plane (and you can't find where that plane joins this one.)
    Last edited by Kaelik; 2007-11-16 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Wow. DM using intelligent tactics on a player by a spellcasting NPC for using his class abilities to ruin balance by removing resource management from the game. Thats pretty awesome.
    I think you misspelled some stuff, fixed it for you.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Unless he you know, happens to be an elf, or have Mindblank (since he has MMM that seems likely.)
    That is why every enemy spellcaster starts with Greater Dispelling in every fight, having a chance to end the already cast mind-blank.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by deadseashoals View Post
    I think you misspelled some stuff, fixed it for you.
    How did the NPC spellcaster actually find the invisible object again?

    Imagine the situation:

    Sometimes there is a Magical, Invisible, Door. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to find it in eight hours. Go.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    That is why every enemy spellcaster starts with Greater Dispelling in every fight, having a chance to end the already cast mind-blank.
    Well if they already fought, then chances are pretty good one of them is dead (assuming the Wizard has a party so he can't just teleport away.) So I don't see why you would Nightmare the guy if you already had your shot to kill him. And why doesn't he Nightmare you?

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Sometimes there is a Magical, Invisible, Door. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to find it in eight hours. Go
    Trace Teleport + See Invisibility. Both lower level than MMM.


    I added another alternative to the first post-sending.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Do bear in mind that this will not just hurt the wizard, but the entire party. You are attacking the party when everyone has set aside all their weapons and armor, and has used up most/all their spells and per/day abilities. While this is a good way to ramp up challenge ratings and achieve a total party kill, it will not be fun for anyone in the party. These solutions are a little too close to "rocks fall, everyone dies." Sorta, "rocks fall, everyone sucks."

    It would be better to simply houserule that the spell is usable only once per week, if it really bothers you.
    Last edited by Woot Spitum; 2007-11-16 at 07:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Another good counter for MMM (and Rope Trick) is:

    "You want to take that Bag of Holding/Portable Hole/Heward's Handy Haversack into another extradimensional space? Oh, my my my. Well, let's see ..."

    Or my favorite:

    "Those spells do not exist."
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Yeah, but the sending is both cooler and RAW. You can end the wizard's rest anytime, no matter where he is, no matter his defences.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    Another good counter for MMM (and Rope Trick) is:

    "You want to take that Bag of Holding/Portable Hole/Heward's Handy Haversack into another extradimensional space? Oh, my my my. Well, let's see ..."

    Or my favorite:

    "Those spells do not exist."
    I believe he was working towards a more DM being an ******* within the rules then he was actual houseruling (lets not get into that argument, both of those are house rules.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler
    Trace Teleport + See Invisibility. Both lower level than MMM.


    I added another alternative to the first post-sending.
    Which again implies that he has already met the party, which begs the question, why since not all of 95% of parties can teleport, didn't he just kill everyone/ everyone that didn't teleport away?

    And if he did, then why are you being an ******* by making sure that the only surviving party member gets killed too?

    And if the whole party can Teleport, why/how did they all go to the same place?

    And dispelling a Mindblank isn't going to get you a Nightmare if they are using the Before Bed Prepare buffs system.

    EDIT: And I think you need to rethink sending. First, I can sleep through someone talking. Second, You don't have to sleep in order to regain spells, just rest. 25 Words even if it did wake me up isn't going to disturb my rest, and I'm going right back to sleep.
    Last edited by Kaelik; 2007-11-16 at 07:58 PM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    Or my favorite:

    "Those spells do not exist."
    See, this is probably the fairest way to deal anything that you feel is broken. Tell your players, up front, before they make their characters, what you don't want them using in your campaign. Don't just arbitrarily kill them.
    "Well, as Captain Leif Meldrock says in Mars Needs Lumberjacks, I'm ready for anything."
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    I believe he was working towards a more DM being an ******* within the rules then he was actual houseruling (lets not get into that argument, both of those are house rules.)
    Arguably they are, but penalties for bringing one extradimensional space into another are also supported indirectly by the rules as written, by virtue of the effects of certain magical items on one another. While it's true that a perfectly literal reading of the RAW says that only Bags of Holding and Portable Holes are affected by this, the logic behind those two items interacting with one another so violently easily follows to any other extradimensional spaces without any twisting.

    However ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Woot Spitum View Post
    See, this is probably the fairest way to deal anything that you feel is broken. Tell your players, up front, before they make their characters, what you don't want them using in your campaign. Don't just arbitrarily kill them.
    I agree with this.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowhere Girl View Post
    Arguably they are, but penalties for bringing one extradimensional space into another are also supported indirectly by the rules as written, by virtue of the effects of certain magical items on one another. While it's true that a perfectly literal reading of the RAW says that only Bags of Holding and Portable Holes are affected by this, the logic behind those two items interacting with one another so violently easily follows to any other extradimensional spaces without any twisting.
    Lots of things are "suggested" across the many D&D books, but if there are no rules for it, making up your own is houseruling, "suggestions" and "similar cases" don't change that.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    EDIT: And I think you need to rethink sending. First, I can sleep through someone talking. Second, You don't have to sleep in order to regain spells, just rest. 25 Words even if it did wake me up isn't going to disturb my rest, and I'm going right back to sleep.
    Additionally, there's this nifty clause in the needed rest for an arcanist:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, Magic Overview, Arcane Magic, Preparing Wizard Spells
    Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
    (Emphasis added).

    So if you ping a Wizard awake every 6 hours, all you've done is change the rest time from 8 hours to 10 (assuming you ping the Wizard twice in that time). You'd need to ping the Wizard awake at least once per hour to prevent the Wizard from ever getting enough rest to replenish spells ... and if you're doing that, you're not resting, either.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    Lots of things are "suggested" across the many D&D books, but if there are no rules for it, making up your own is houseruling, "suggestions" and "similar cases" don't change that.
    Well, I'd also "houserule" that you can't take actions while suffering the "dead" condition, that you can't actually form a line of peasants and create a "railgun" effect of handing off some item from peasant to peasant at the speed of light ...

    And etc.

    So, yes, I suppose if you want to get literalist, there are many "houserules" I'd have to make just to render the game playable.
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Unless you have an item that can cast sending 1/hour on its own.


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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Unless you have an item that can cast sending 1/hour on its own.
    Or have a confederate help you. Trade out -- one of you rests, the other sends pings.

    Remember: Batman the Paranoid may spend 20 hours per day in his MMM, but people who live in the actual world have access to the resources that can be found there, including, simply, other people.
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is.
    Wouldn't that, among other things, screw up the BBEG's own rest?

    If neither of them have spells, and the wizard has a party, my money's now on the wizard.

    Edit: Gee. Ninja!
    Last edited by Kantolin; 2007-11-16 at 08:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Trying to ping somebody awake with Sending seems like the kind of thing Concentration was made to resist (Activity that needs full attention: Being Asleep. Distracting factor: Sending. Skill to resist distractions: Concentration!) Autohypnosis would also work. Alternately: Hearing something when you're asleep requires a Listen check with a -10 modifier. If it's possible to voluntarily fail a skill check, the wizard can choose not to hear your Sending and never be awakened by it. Or, on the second night you attempt this strategy against the wizard, he sleeps with earplugs in.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    I'd have to agree on just saying that you don't want them using certain spells, it's fair to everybody and it doesn't screw anyone over because they decided they couldn't win.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    The rules as written do absolutely say that
    Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
    (from the text of Rope Trick)

    Unfortunately, the rules don't say what the hazards of such an act are. The only place any such effect is described is with respect to Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, and even if you decide to apply that to all such cases, there are two different effects given, depending on which one is inside the other, so you don't know which one to use.

    What happened here is that, in Second Edition, there was an explicit rule about overlapping extradimensional spaces, which was referenced in the text of Bags of Holding, Rope Trick, and other places. But apparently, the Third Edition design team didn't coordinate well enough, and the rule made it through in some places, but not all. So whoever wrote Portable Hole and Bags of Holding included the rule, and whoever wrote Rope Trick put in a reference to the general rule, but whoever would have written the general rule, didn't.

    So the net effect is that some old-school players, who remember 2nd edition, might still use that rule, not realizing that it doesn't exist any more, and some more imaginative DMs might implement a version of the rule, based on the cryptic text remaining in Rope Trick, and the rest of us just end up confused.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Once again. Send all you want. You don't have to sleep for eight hours, only "rest" (which is explicitly different from sleeping in the description) so you can Send and Send and Send and all you are doing is wasting your spell slots while he regains his.

    And Chronos, that's exactly my point. Standing in a field is "hazardous." Hell everything is hazardous in D&D. But unless it has defined Hazards then anything you make up is still a DM houseruling it.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a

    It briefly covers the rope trick problem.

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    As a note, even if the above fixes worked / were feasible / weren't specifically screwing over the wizard.

    They still strike me as loads superior to just sleeping out in an open field. For one, it's more comfortable.
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    And Chronos, that's exactly my point. Standing in a field is "hazardous." Hell everything is hazardous in D&D. But unless it has defined Hazards then anything you make up is still a DM houseruling it.
    Oh, I won't argue that point. I'm just pointing out that the rules as they stand right now are a bit confusing, and that because of that confusion, houserules (even "stealth houserules" that people think are RAW) are quite common in this situation. It's best if the DM and players come to an agreement (whatever that agreement is) on this point before someone tries to take a bag of holding into a rope trick.
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    Default Re: Magnificent Mansion counters

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is.
    Nope. The spell description says: "Even if the sending is received, the subject is not obligated to act upon it in any manner." So the subject does doesn't act on it in any way - including waking up, or ceasing to rest.

    Nightmare: The wizard can't rest for 24 hours.
    Until someone casts Dispel Evil on the subject, in which case you are stunned (no save) for 10 minutes per caster level of the Dispel Evil. No thanks!

    Dispel Magic:
    This requires you to find the entrance, and then cast Dispel Magic on it. Not always possible (and if the mage is smart, usually practically impossible). Note that Trace Teleport will do absolutely nothing if the Wizard got to the starting location using a Phantom Steed, or dozens of other methods.

    Gateseal:
    Again, see Dispel Magic.

    Antimagic Field: You and your fighter minion move next to the portal and you cast antimagic field or antimagic aura. The sleeping, surprised, undressed wizard suddenly drops in an antimagic sphere and is captured.
    Again, see Dispel Magic.

    Prismatic Wall: You make one right before the exit portal. The wizard exits-and passes through thus is slain.
    [/quote]

    See Dispel Magic. And what's to stop the wizard looking through the portal before going through it and noticing the Sphere?

    Overall, I'd give these ideas a D-, since without DM cheating they have almost no chance of success.

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