The Foundation : It is Here, it is Big, It is Epic

[Cikomyr2]

So I just caught the first episode of the Foundation

Man. This is everything I always wanted to see in a big, expansive Sci Fi Epic Saga.

I love so far. Anyone else caught it?

[JadedDM]

I've watched the first two episodes so far. And I like it. It adds a ton of world-building that wasn't in the books.

Actually, you know what it really reminds me of? Krypton. I really liked that show, too, and this feels awfully close to it for some reason.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.

Plus considering that this series is where 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent' comes from I got turned off when the advert showed multiple space battles and a ground battle.

[Cikomyr2]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.

Let me tell you right away that the Grandiosity of the series so far is about the huge imperial institutions. There hasn't been any starship pew pew yet, and the series doesn't look like it will focus necessarily on THAT

Plus considering that this series is where 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent' comes from I got turned off when the advert showed multiple space battles and a ground battle.

If I may just spoil a little thing for you. It's not a big deal, but it may reassure you.

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler and Theories

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I believe the series will follow both the ascension of the Foundation, and also the spiraling of the Empire as parallel plots. So the space battles/ground battles you seen are probably.. the story of the Fall of Trantor? Which is inevitable?

if I could venture a guess about the series creators' intent, they probably want to show the contrast of the rising Foundation that is built on practical matters like trade, technology and diplomacy vs the falling Empire which has relied too long on either promise or display of violence.

[Anonymouswizard]

Let me tell you right away that the Grandiosity of the series so far is about the huge imperial institutions. There hasn't been any starship pew pew yet, and the series doesn't look like it will focus necessarily on THAT

Possibly. I don't have the ability to watch it right now anyway, it's just that the promotional material I had seen seemed very unfoundation.

If I may just spoil a little thing for you. It's not a big deal, but it may reassure you.

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler and Theories

Show

I believe the series will follow both the ascension of the Foundation, and also the spiraling of the Empire as parallel plots. So the space battles/ground battles you seen are probably.. the story of the Fall of Trantor? Which is inevitable?

if I could venture a guess about the series creators' intent, they probably want to show the contrast of the rising Foundation that is built on practical matters like trade, technology and diplomacy vs the falling Empire which has relied too long on either promise or display of violence.

I honestly wondered if they were taking it of context clips that would be down some Seldom"s trial is going on.

Another work? I've found out that it's apparently planned for eight series. Even assuming UK series lengths (six to twelve episodes) I'm not quite sure that the original trilogy could be told in more than one series per book without becoming bloated. Are Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth really large enough to justify it?

Although if we'd reached the second book space battles would make more sense, because the first story kind of makes the point in your spoiler.

[DataNinja]

Another work? I've found out that it's apparently planned for eight series. Even assuming UK series lengths (six to twelve episodes) I'm not quite sure that the original trilogy could be told in more than one series per book without becoming bloated. Are Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth really large enough to justify it?

Yeah, they're both a fair bit more sizeable than the original books, Between 1.5 times and twice as long, ish.

[Cikomyr2]

Having seen the 2nd episode, i can now confirm that there was pew pew. And that I was seemingly right in its role in its story so far

Still very solid. There's a few derails regarding Hari Seldon you will understand if you read the book. And if you haven't read the book then I am sure it's just a pending mystery

[Spacewolf]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

Spoiler: major book spoilers

Show

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

[Cikomyr2]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

Spoiler: major book spoilers

Show

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

Well...

Spoiler: Book Spoiler

Show

Do you mind pointing out exactly the situation you mean where the Seldon plan was dependant solely on the action of individuals where we couldn't rationalize as "the situation was ripe for this solution and someone stepped up to seize it"?

Like.. the Four Kingdoms already had a wary fear of the Foundation's science and they wouldn't accept proper formal training outside of a religious context. Then that religion became the chain to political restrain the Four Kingdom's individual strenght.

Then came Mallow; where he displayed that the technological edge in consumer goods trading would inevitably lead to any commercial partner becoming dependant on the Foundation.

Then there was the Bel Riose invasion, where it was more about the Empire's inability to wage any war of conquest without exposing itself to massive instability that would inevitably cause it to collapse.

[The Glyphstone]

I am curious how they're going to pull off the sort of long-form storytelling that Foundation involves without either boring the viewers or condensing massive amounts of in-between time into rapid-fire events.

[Wintermoot]

I have thoroughly enjoyed the first two episodes. It certainly feels like its keeping the spirit of the book(s) while skewing off into is own thing. I would argue that being a necessity to turn this into a series.

The original "novel" foundation, was actually five short stories published over a decade in the 40s and early 50s. The stories were not released in order they appear in the novel. In fact the first book of the novel was the last published because it wasn't published until the novel was released.

Each story is separated by a gulf of centuries and each provide a window into the long term story of this foundation that is preserving human knowledge through a period of dark age in order to speed up the rebuilding of the human civilization.

So, like I said, it skews from the narrative in order to facilitate the series. BUT I was refreshingly excited to see how it did it and what it preserved.

Below, in spoiler, I will discuss the first two episodes in some depth and how they differ from the novel

Spoiler: you were warned

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The first episode opens on young Gaal Dornick. In the novel (published in the 50s) Gaal was, of course, a white male. Here the character is a biracial young woman. I'm sure many pundits will be up in arms over this even though the character's race and gender bear no significance to the character's role in the story.

Gaal is from a backwater luddite planet where scientists and engineers are executed to preserve the old ways. The planet is flooding due to a global collapse. Gaal secretly taught herself Math and somehow won a math contest by solving an unsolvable problem and is now set to travel to Trantor, the capital of the galactic empire, to study with the mathemetician Hari Seldon. This tracks with the novel, although there is some religious stuff I don't recall. Gaal has to remove her face stones, symbols of her religion, and accept basically exile to be allowed to go.

She gets on the ship, freezes for the journey. However somehow on the journey, she awakens and sees teh bizarre unreality of travelling at FTL speeds before being put back under by the genetically engineered crew that are evolved to survive the trip while not asleep. It is implied that this will be important later.

When she gets to Trantor, she gets on the space elevator for the trip from orbit to surface which will take 14 hours. She meets a man who seems jovial and nice, but is really there to spy on her for the imperial agents.

When she gets to the surface she is met by Hari's assistant, and adopted son, Raych. who brings her to Hari at an immense library. There Hari shows her his magic box that contains his entire psychohistory formulae and explains what psychohistory is. A mathematical model that lets you predict the long term future of large populations. It predicts that the empire will collapse and fall within 500 years and lead to a 30,000 year period of dark age to follow.

Obviously, this is alarming to the powers that be. So Hari knows that he and Gaal are to be arrested. Why? Because they empire wants Gaal, the only other person in the universe who can understand Hari's work, to prove he is wrong.

There is a budding romantic subplot between Gaal and Raych.

So, they are arrested and we meet "the emperors". Clones of the first emperor, Cleon the first, There are three of them. A 70 year old version called "Brother Dusk", a 40 year old version called "Brother Day" and a 10 year old version called "Brother Dawn". This is how it always goes. Dusk serves as an advisor to Day who is the nominal actual emperor, while Dawn is taught and learns at their heels. Then every 30 years a new clone is birthed and everyone adjusts up a peg and the, then 90 year old Brother Dusk is put to pasture. There is also an android adjunct who serves as nursemaid and aide-de-camp for the emperor. The last living android known who has been alive since Cleon the 1st and is, really, the actual power behind the throne.

Here, Hari explains what his theory tells and suggests that the period of dark ages can be shortened to a mere 1000 years if he's allowed to build a foundation to store knowledge to make it through the dark period. He also says that the collapse can be postponed if the empire gives up cloning and accepts new blood and new ideas into the emperorship. An idea which was never going to have any traction.

While this is going on, there is a subplot. Two warring sub-states from the periphery have been fighting each other and their war accidentally killed some of the empire's adjuncts. Representatives of the two nations arrive at Trantor to plead their cases to the Emperor so he will decide the war in their favor. They bring gifts subtlety telling the emperor what they will give him if he decides in their favor.

while they are on planet, terrorists, who APPEAR to be from the two warring sub-states blow up the sky elevator. This is a great scene. We see the giant cable, severed from orbit, as it falls and begins the slow weeks long process of circling and recircling the planet like a garotte.

Partially because of this and for other reasons, the emperor decides to NOT execute Hari and Gaal but to exile them to the frozen rock, in the periphery called Terminus to "build their foundation"

As they leave, Hari tells Gaal that this had been his plan all along, that he intended the emperor to send him there


end.

So is this the same as the short story/novel? No. The basics are the same. Hari's psychohistory is the same, the story of how he tricks the empire into helping him create the foundation is the same. Gaal's role is the same so far, as Hari's eventual replacement.

But there are differences in order to make is a series/movie. The faceless "commitee" that ran the empire in the novel (a play on things like the senate commitee on unamerican activities from the time IRL) is replaced by the Emperor trio. A subplot is added around terrorism, religion and the peripheral war which all serve to add flavor to the bare sketch of an empire from the novel.

I think its a success. I'm happy to state that in episodes two and three we actually move forward 30 years. The first of the time jumps that will get us through the fall of the empire and the dark age period. I didn't know if they would do this because you can't keep the same cast, but they have so far. So I am very hopeful.

[Spacewolf]

Well...

Spoiler: Book Spoiler

Show

Do you mind pointing out exactly the situation you mean where the Seldon plan was dependant solely on the action of individuals where we couldn't rationalize as "the situation was ripe for this solution and someone stepped up to seize it"?

Like.. the Four Kingdoms already had a wary fear of the Foundation's science and they wouldn't accept proper formal training outside of a religious context. Then that religion became the chain to political restrain the Four Kingdom's individual strenght.

Then came Mallow; where he displayed that the technological edge in consumer goods trading would inevitably lead to any commercial partner becoming dependant on the Foundation.

Then there was the Bel Riose invasion, where it was more about the Empire's inability to wage any war of conquest without exposing itself to massive instability that would inevitably cause it to collapse.

Spoiler

Show

It's been awhile since I've read the books but Mallow in particular stood out as if he'd failed the plan would have gone to nothing and him suddenly having the answer he needed pop into his head that being to use the UV scanner seemed very convenient. The Invasion and paranoia of the empire could very easily be seen as the work of the Second foundation considering their base. Is four kingdoms when in the first book the guy decides not to do anything even though as a younger person he was the opposite and would have attacked, while it is likely partly due to him getting older there was definitely a moment where everything hinged on his actions which would have been too specific for the plan to account for. Then it's explained in Second foundation that the grand overarching plan doesn't exist in it's entirety and it's more like a constantly changing set of guidelines that have to be kept within a certain variable.

As I said it's been awhile since I read but I'm sure a line keeps coming up like, suddenly the answer became clear. Which while it's not spelled out I always read to be the person getting the thought put into their head.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler

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Hardin and the Seldon Crisises (Crisi? Crisodes?) It's interesting. The first Crisis follows the established rules of psychohistory really well, the Foundation is given exactly the situation it needs to not act until it only has one course of action, while both the Empire and the Four Kingdoms are large enough to fall into easily mappable patterns. Although the exact number of kingdoms doesn't matter, they'll likely DVR in a similar way. Sardin's contribution to solving the crisis is basically ensuring that other kingdoms have enough information that they fall into their assigned roles.

The second Crisis he takes a more active hand in, but he's still just making sure the historic forces are pointing the right way. Plus even without his little show it's entirely likely that the priesthood would, as a mass of people, have turned off the nuclear generators until the Foundation was no longer under threat. If anything he hastens the course of history by a negligible few weeks.

Plus when you think of how large the Seldon Plan is and how many people are agents of the Foundation a couple of centuries down the line you can start making good estimations at when somebody will have the right idea, but not who.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Spoiler

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Hardin and the Seldon Crisises (Crisi? Crisodes?) It's interesting. The first Crisis follows the established rules of psychohistory really well, the Foundation is given exactly the situation it needs to not act until it only has one course of action, while both the Empire and the Four Kingdoms are large enough to fall into easily mappable patterns. Although the exact number of kingdoms doesn't matter, they'll likely DVR in a similar way. Sardin's contribution to solving the crisis is basically ensuring that other kingdoms have enough information that they fall into their assigned roles.

The second Crisis he takes a more active hand in, but he's still just making sure the historic forces are pointing the right way. Plus even without his little show it's entirely likely that the priesthood would, as a mass of people, have turned off the nuclear generators until the Foundation was no longer under threat. If anything he hastens the course of history by a negligible few weeks.

Plus when you think of how large the Seldon Plan is and how many people are agents of the Foundation a couple of centuries down the line you can start making good estimations at when somebody will have the right idea, but not who.

Spoiler

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In fact of all the non-psychohistorians, it could be argued that Hardin had the best grasp of what was going on, to the extent that he deliberately tried to make sure he didn't let himself be diverted by the knowledge he had. The secret was just to do nothing until there was no alternative.

On the other hand we had Deevers, who did his best to plan and undermine Roise's schemes, and it turned out that apart from an exciting story he had no effect whatsoever - Roise was doomed no matter what happened.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler

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In fact of all the non-psychohistorians, it could be argued that Hardin had the best grasp of what was going on, to the extent that he deliberately tried to make sure he didn't let himself be diverted by the knowledge he had. The secret was just to do nothing until there was no alternative.

On the other hand we had Deevers, who did his best to plan and undermine Roise's schemes, and it turned out that apart from an exciting story he had no effect whatsoever - Roise was doomed no matter what happened.

Spoiler

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Hardin is also the only member of the Foundation until after the Mule to have even the slightest understanding of psychology, so he has an edge. But yes, after the first Crisis where he tries to act, gets endlessly stalled, and then dress exactly how it plays out when he has no alternative. By the time the third story starts he seems to have a pretty good grasp on what the Crisis is going to be, how it has to be solved, and spends most of his time delaying until he can only employ that solution.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler

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It's been awhile since I've read the books but Mallow in particular stood out as if he'd failed the plan would have gone to nothing and him suddenly having the answer he needed pop into his head that being to use the UV scanner seemed very convenient. The Invasion and paranoia of the empire could very easily be seen as the work of the Second foundation considering their base. Is four kingdoms when in the first book the guy decides not to do anything even though as a younger person he was the opposite and would have attacked, while it is likely partly due to him getting older there was definitely a moment where everything hinged on his actions which would have been too specific for the plan to account for. Then it's explained in Second foundation that the grand overarching plan doesn't exist in it's entirety and it's more like a constantly changing set of guidelines that have to be kept within a certain variable.

As I said it's been awhile since I read but I'm sure a line keeps coming up like, suddenly the answer became clear. Which while it's not spelled out I always read to be the person getting the thought put into their head.

Well

Spoiler: The books

Show

The entire Saga specific to Korellia was.. A ripple in the river?

It didn't matter if Mallow won or lost his specific political bid, or his trial. He was trying to surf on the massive wave he believed was inevitable. He could have been swallowed by it and be forgotten, and another hero of the Foundation would have emerged at roughly the same time

But all the intrigue.. Was just salad dressing so we could get to investigate the core propositions that made any conflict of an Imperial Client State an inevitable win to the Foundation. And because Asimov wanted a court drama.

[monomer]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

Spoiler: major book spoilers

Show

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

Spoiler

Show

In the second episode Seldon's protege, Gaal, reveals that after reviewing Seldon's psychohistory model she can tell isn't complete and there are some holes, though she doesn't know how important those holes are. So that implies there is some room for post-Seldon patching of the model.

[Fyraltari]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

Spoiler: major book spoilers

Show

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler: Book spoilers

Show

The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

Spoiler

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That was my impression. They had spies in First Foundation space, just to make sure everything was on track, but their actual meddling was in the Empire.

I believe that the Second Foundation also spends less time meddling via their psychic powers, and more time using psychohistory to build failsafes into the plan. If they even have psychic powers, the explanation of their telepathy in the actual book makes it sound like they're just really, really good at displaying and reading body language. Probably some kind of 'when you know as much as the Second Foundation the line between telepathy and body language blurs'.

Guess I might need to work out a way to watch this, maybe I have a partner or a friend with Apple TV...

[uncool]

Spoiler

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To my recollection, the psychic powers of the Second Foundation are made pretty clear when they "deconvert" Han Pritcher (and later, the Mule) at the end of the first half of Second Foundation.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler

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To my recollection, the psychic powers of the Second Foundation are made pretty clear when they "deconvert" Han Pritcher (and later, the Mule) at the end of the first half of Second Foundation.

Spoiler

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The body language thing is from Search By The Foundation. Specifically the explanation of how talking at their meetings works.

[Cikomyr2]

I still wonder what the hell the Vault in the first episode is.

It doesnt fit with the rest of the expedition tech. It looks literally alien.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler: Book spoilers

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The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

Spoiler

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The only way to get into the second foundation is to make a contribution to the plan in second foundation the leader even says here is my contribution so I guess there is a plan but the idea of it being set in stone is the fraud. It's more like a river, one that is being constantly monitored and adjusted to make sure it reaches where it is supposed to.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler

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The only way to get into the second foundation is to make a contribution to the plan in second foundation the leader even says here is my contribution so I guess there is a plan but the idea of it being set in stone is the fraud. It's more like a river, one that is being constantly monitored and adjusted to make sure it reaches where it is supposed to.

Spoiler

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Well, yes. It's a plan that aims to engineer one outcome for an entire galaxy over one thousand years and is based on probability and statistics. Of course it needs monitoring and adjusting, but that doesn't mean major stuff, the Seldon Crisises, and therefore, Seldon's entire basic outline os still The Plan. Especially since that particular scene took place after The Mule did to the plan what the equivalent of elbow-dropping a sand castle would be and the SF spent the last decades trying to salvage it.
And remember, the Second Foundation is tiny. They have psychic powers, true, but much less potent than the Mule, they don't have Gaia's numbers either, and they don't have much money (at least for a clique intent on dictating the galaxy's future) since their day jobs is farming in the ruins of Trantor. They can't force the galaxy to comply to their plan, is what I am getting at, only nudge thing a little to ensure their preferred outcome.


Also, nitpick, the Prime Speaker's contribution to the plan was to extend it beyond Seldon's endpoint, which while, technically being an alteration to the plan doesn't really matter to what you were saying.

[Cikomyr2]

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except there is never an end. The First Orator was just determining stability within the new Empire. If I remember right it was about the Empire splitting and self destructing

[Fyraltari]

Just watched episode 3.

Spoiler: Epsiode 3

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I am confused by the idea of Salvor Hardin being "special" and the Vault letting nobody else but her approach. It seems to hint at her, specifically, being needed to resolve the First Crisis, which kind of goes against the whole idea of psychohistory.

Another thing,

Spoiler: Episode 2 & book spoilers

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Demerzel being part of the raid on the bomb-making facility feels off. That's a pretty blatant violation of the First Law. Even if she has, loke her book counterpart the zeroth Law installed, the books stressed how fien a line that is to tread, so I don't think her book counterpart would get away with that behaviour.

Spoiler

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except there is never an end. The First Orator was just determining stability within the new Empire. If I remember right it was about the Empire splitting and self destructing

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I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

[Cikomyr2]

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I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

Spoiler

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Well, I think he meant to explain that just because the next Empire is more federated it doesn't mean it will be invincible or eternal. He discussed an eventual political crisis that would destroy the Second Empire, and how he figured to bypass it. The implication was that Psychohistory was a Living Science, not a one and done by Hari Seldon. It wasn't the work of a single prophet, but an active intellectual field, basically projecting and playing with the future of humanity.

[Spacewolf]

Just watched episode 3.

Spoiler: Epsiode 3

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I am confused by the idea of Salvor Hardin being "special" and the Vault letting nobody else but her approach. It seems to hint at her, specifically, being needed to resolve the First Crisis, which kind of goes against the whole idea of psychohistory.

Another thing,

Spoiler: Episode 2 & book spoilers

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Demerzel being part of the raid on the bomb-making facility feels off. That's a pretty blatant violation of the First Law. Even if she has, loke her book counterpart the zeroth Law installed, the books stressed how fien a line that is to tread, so I don't think her book counterpart would get away with that behaviour.

Spoiler

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I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

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To be honest I've never read past Second foundation because it sounds like it just goes down hill after that point. The same way Dune and Hyperion do after their second books. But the aim for the original trilogy was to put the second foundation in power and create a benevolent society where the cattle would be ruled over by a carefully designed and pruned race of psychic overlords. This would then be able to last indefinitely as it would have a high stability index as I remember them calling it.

The plan was literally a prop to get people to accept this situation without trying to rebel against their overlords by giving them something immutable to believe in, that being Psychohistory. The thing is while Psychohistory is a useful tool it's not good enough to predict the entirety of the thousand year plan without needing corrections. Which is why as the Second foundation increases their knowledge and study of it they are each required to make an alteration to the plan to show they understand it as well as to keep it on track.

It doesn't matter that the Mule had arrived because Palver had made his alteration before he even showed up as it was his initiation into the foundation and he is now the leader. That's the point of being part of the second foundation, to realise that the immutable plan is a lie but by keeping the river carefully managed they can still guide it to the planned outcome.

I don't think numbers really matter it's pretty much shown that they have at least one person in most important places and when that person can push thoughts into minds then it doesn't take more than one.

[Fyraltari]

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To be honest I've never read past Second foundation because it sounds like it just goes down hill after that point. The same way Dune and Hyperion do after their second books. But the aim for the original trilogy was to put the second foundation in power and create a benevolent society where the cattle would be ruled over by a carefully designed and pruned race of psychic overlords. This would then be able to last indefinitely as it would have a high stability index as I remember them calling it.

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I find them quote good (although, I jave my reservations about Gaia) in no small part because they question the benevolence of the Second Foundation. After all what right do these people have to steer the course of human history, and why should "the cattle" as you put it, have blond faith in them?

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The plan was literally a prop to get people to accept this situation without trying to rebel against their overlords by giving them something immutable to believe in, that being Psychohistory.

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Uh, no. The fullfilment of the Plan is entire purpose of the Second Foundation, they believe in it even more strongly than the First Founders. They are extremely desicated to it, as evidenced by all of those who willingly sacrificed themselves under Palver's orders so that it can get to back to its rails.

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The thing is while Psychohistory is a useful tool it's not good enough to predict the entirety of the thousand year plan without needing corrections. Which is why as the Second foundation increases their knowledge and study of it they are each required to make an alteration to the plan to show they understand it as well as to keep it on track.

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Uh, yeah it is. But remember that Hari Seldon was a university professor creating a whole new branch of statistical analysis in an galaxy spanning Empire that did not care about his research. His ability to gather data was limited. It took him his entire adult life to formulaye the plan and he originally had to use Trantor as a good-enoigh stand-in for the entire Empire. Of course the thing he produced wasn't flawless, but it works! The Second Foundation's role is that of a failsafe to insure the rise of the Second Empire (since placing the First Foundation on Terminus only gave it a decent probability of happening plus unknown unknown like the Mule) and to expand Seldon's vision further. Like in Second Foundation it's mentionned that reality once diverged from the plan and followed a path that had a 1% chance of happening. That does not invalidate the Plan or psychohistory at all.

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It doesn't matter that the Mule had arrived because Palver had made his alteration before he even showed up as it was his initiation into the foundation and he is now the leader. That's the point of being part of the second foundation, to realise that the immutable plan is a lie but by keeping the river carefully managed they can still guide it to the planned outcome.

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To become a member of the Council of Speaker, one must make a modification to the Plan. Not to become a member of the SF, one is born a Second Founder. Furthermore:

A good Speaker must not only master the mathematical subtelties of the Seldon plan, but have faith in it and its destinies. He must love the Plan with genuine love and without reservations. The Plan must be for him life's very essence.
[...]
The Seldon Plan is neither finished nor perfect. It is only the best possible plan, given the knowledge of the time.

Preem Palver's modification, which happened after the Mule came and went by the way (he may have been a Speaker by then, but he certainly wasn't the First Speaker) was about avoiding a particular situation that only had a 12% chance of happening and would have important ramifications much later.

They're correcting details, but the overall pattern of the First Foundation being shaped by the Seldon Crisises into the Second Empire remain unchanged. They are still following Seldon's plan, it is in no way a lie.

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I don't think numbers really matter it's pretty much shown that they have at least one person in most important places and when that person can push thoughts into minds then it doesn't take more than one.

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Yes it does matter, they've got an entire freaking galaxy to oversee and their psychic powers only extend as far as next room. And they're not The Mule who used his vast powers as a blunt instrument they have to be very subtle. And, once more, the First Foundation was entirely on its own for the beginning of its history.

[Spacewolf]

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I find them quote good (although, I jave my reservations about Gaia) in no small part because they question the benevolence of the Second Foundation. After all what right do these people have to steer the course of human history, and why should "the cattle" as you put it, have blond faith in them?

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Uh, no. The fullfilment of the Plan is entire purpose of the Second Foundation, they believe in it even more strongly than the First Founders. They are extremely desicated to it, as evidenced by all of those who willingly sacrificed themselves under Palver's orders so that it can get to back to its rails.

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Uh, yeah it is. But remember that Hari Seldon was a university professor creating a whole new branch of statistical analysis in an galaxy spanning Empire that did not care about his research. His ability to gather data was limited. It took him his entire adult life to formulaye the plan and he originally had to use Trantor as a good-enoigh stand-in for the entire Empire. Of course the thing he produced wasn't flawless, but it works! The Second Foundation's role is that of a failsafe to insure the rise of the Second Empire (since placing the First Foundation on Terminus only gave it a decent probability of happening plus unknown unknown like the Mule) and to expand Seldon's vision further. Like in Second Foundation it's mentionned that reality once diverged from the plan and followed a path that had a 1% chance of happening. That does not invalidate the Plan or psychohistory at all.

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To become a member of the Council of Speaker, one must make a modification to the Plan. Not to become a member of the SF, one is born a Second Founder. Furthermore:
Preem Palver's modification, which happened after the Mule came and went by the way (he may have been a Speaker by then, but he certainly wasn't the First Speaker) was about avoiding a particular situation that only had a 12% chance of happening and would have important ramifications much later.

They're correcting details, but the overall pattern of the First Foundation being shaped by the Seldon Crisises into the Second Empire remain unchanged. They are still following Seldon's plan, it is in no way a lie.

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Yes it does matter, they've got an entire freaking galaxy to oversee and their psychic powers only extend as far as next room. And they're not The Mule who used his vast powers as a blunt instrument they have to be very subtle. And, once more, the First Foundation was entirely on its own for the beginning of its history.

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Sorry I think you're misunderstanding me I'm not saying the plan is a lie, more that the first foundations idea of the plan is a lie as I said they view it as a paved path that's already been laid when really it's a living breathing thing that's constantly in flux. Sheldon even says the theory isn't fully finished. So the plan we see is true but the plan the first foundation sees is the prop, the lie.

I don't really have any interest in the morality of the plan as that's pretty much part of psychohistory.