New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

    But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

    Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-10-03 at 12:14 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    I doubt it'd specifically designed as anti-mage. Serini had not way of knowing what type of people/monsters she had to defend against. Given it's based on a game with parties, a party is probably the most likely.

    I don't think the trap is impossible for a mage like Xykon to detect. Casting detect magic would detect, and then he could dispel it. It just hasn't occurred to him to look yet.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    I mean, Serini did intend to build the dungeon partially as Kraagor - a barbarian who valued physical strength above all - wanted, right? So it does make sense that she'd take special care with anti-mage features.

    That said, given that she was basically the only Scribbler who seems to have made efforts to look beyond her own preferences when designing defenses in the first place, I'm inclined to agree that it's mostly just meant as a general purpose dungeon.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.


    Check this game out! Or at least give it a thumbs up.
    Why "because the plot said so" is not a good answer.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Magrathea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

    But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

    Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?
    "Anti-Magic Field ambushes" that we have seen would refer exclusively to Sunny's eye. There's no reason to believe that the majority of the dungeon has AMF-related traps.
    Multidimensional Stone feels like it's more of a multipurpose feature, and I would just say the traps weren't noticed because Team Evil doesn't have a rogue.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    I also don't think it's specifically made to be a magekiller dungeon, but might be valid to note that since magic users are exponentially dangerous at higher levels, countermeasures designed to stop them will probably be a lot more flashy, obvious, and purpose-built. So we may not pay attention to the giant physical monsters and instead focus on the time she uses an AMF, because that's out of the ordinary (but a totally justifiable precaution against high-level characters).

    Solution to keep out a high-level fighter or rogue? Just put more dungeon in your dungeon and nobody bats an eye.

    Solution to keep out a high-level wizard? Some tricky bull****.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

    But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

    Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?
    If the party just once dragged a fight towards the door and hit the trap with a greater dispel (let alone a Disjunction or Superb Dispelling) her entire protection system instantly is shut down.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Seoul
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Didn't Roy make the point that it's almost certainly not the only defense? This isn't the only protection, it's basically the outer walls.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    TinyMushroom's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under your bed

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I mean, Serini did intend to build the dungeon partially as Kraagor - a barbarian who valued physical strength above all - wanted, right? So it does make sense that she'd take special care with anti-mage features.
    That might be a story she deliberately spread to make high-level mages think it would be easy, since they're used to outclassing fighters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gligarman2 View Post
    14. I will not counterspell when Celestia raises the sun.
    Do you want an avatar?
    Adopt one, or ask for a custom avatar!
    Portfolio

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    @OP: No moreso than any other dungeon designed to stymie high-level parties.

    (Including the ones that don't think of bringing a rogue, or having their cleric cast Find Traps )
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Seoul
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Would Find Traps even give much of a chance to find them? It seems these traps are at least fairly hard to discover.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Would Find Traps even give much of a chance to find them? It seems these traps are at least fairly hard to discover.
    You certainly need Trapfinding, but the spell gives that. More importantly though, we know that Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill max(x)ed, and she was still able to spot them twice - while rushing about in a panic rather than searching more methodically no less.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Beverly, MA, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You certainly need Trapfinding, but the spell gives that. More importantly though, we know that Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill max(x)ed, and she was still able to spot them twice - while rushing about in a panic rather than searching more methodically no less.
    Personally, I suspect that the experience at Girard's pyramid prompted Haley to bring her Search ranks back up to maximum (after all, she would have known that they were headed to Kraagor's Tomb, which had been described like a classic dungeon, next). Rogues get enough skill points that they can do that rather quickly, and we know she's leveled since then.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Personally, I suspect that the experience at Girard's pyramid prompted Haley to bring her Search ranks back up to maximum (after all, she would have known that they were headed to Kraagor's Tomb, which had been described like a classic dungeon, next). Rogues get enough skill points that they can do that rather quickly, and we know she's leveled since then.
    It's a fair assumption, certainly I'd do that (although we also know the OotS isn't necessarily optimized either.)

    With the number of doors TE has done though, if Redcloak were casting the spell you'd think he'd have gotten a high roll at least once.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Seoul
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    I don't think Find Traps gives that high a bonus. Probably not nearly as high as Haley.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's a fair assumption, certainly I'd do that (although we also know the OotS isn't necessarily optimized either.)
    But they are supposed to be optimized to the things they are expected to do.

    Roy may not be the greatest optimized build for what we assume is standard stuff for a fighter to face - but we sure as heck assume he is at least trying to optimize his build to fight a certain undead spellcaster.

    I'd assume Haley would be up the slack on her search skill (or get items to cover it up)

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't think Find Traps gives that high a bonus. Probably not nearly as high as Haley.
    SRD says you get a bonus equal to half your level up to a maximum of 10.
    So assuming Redcloak hasn't put any ranks in search (Clerics don't get a a lot of skillpoints)

    And he's level 17-20 by now, at best he has a +10 to search and whatever his intelligence is.

    Haley should be far better.


    I also think another thing to note here - Xykon has Serini's diary.
    That means he knows how she designed the dungeon - or at least he thinks he does.
    So Team Evil has a false sense of security and are less likely to test all options.

    Meanwhile, Haley has no idea what's going on, so she is always on the lookout for anything.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •