Martial build ideas

[MaxTheWanderer]

First time poster, new-ish player to 3.5

I'm at a bit of a loss with a character I'm making into a 1st-level fight guy. This is for a different sort of game where up until now, we've been playing a group of 'level 0' characters who have a level in a NPC class trying to survive a disaster in their village. Now that blood has been spilt and the wheat reaped from the chaff, the chosen few are going off to become proper adventurers in a large city, training for a year to do so.

Edit: Some restrictions I forgot to mention when I posted this were that there's no access to Tome of Battle, or most divine classes. Ranger and Druid are ok, but anything that derives their power from a deity like Cleric or Paladin are not available, but may possibly be taken later.

I play martials. I don't really like playing full casters at all. Luckily, this character rolled up to do just about anything as long as a high Int bonus isn't required. The stats are:

Strength: 16, Dexterity: 17, Constitution: 16, Intelligence: 10, Wisdom: 15, Charisma:14

He's a base human with a 'level' in Aristocrat, and we keep all of that along with gaining our first level in a character class. I had him take Toughness to compensate for a somewhat low HP roll to ensure he survived, and he has the Bravado drawback (no dodge bonuses to AC), which grants him an additional feat now that he's properly first level.

... And by some stroke of insanity during the initial character creation, he's basically Gaston from Beauty and the Beast. With these physical stats, roughly the size of a barge isn't too far off.

So, any ideas? I was considering making him some sort of underhanded fighter type, but I'm not as tuned into building stuff for 3.5 as I am with Pathfinder.

[Rebel7284]

Clerics and Druids do make the best martial builds, but since you're not interested in casting, check out Tome of Battle. Crusader would work great with those stats. Ruby Knight Vindicator is one of the best tanks in the game, although that does have (stunted) casting.

[Telonius]

To start off with, what books does your table allow, and what sorts of things do you want this guy to be able to do?

Second, how new are you to 3.5? There are lots of ways to make melee classes more powerful, but many of them run on the "extremely complicated" side of the scale. If we can get a gauge of how familiar you are with the system, we might be able to cut down on some of the craziness that's otherwise guaranteed to be coming your way.

Third, I'm guessing that Toughness feat is set in stone then? One thing that's going to be very different from Pathfinder is feat availability. They're a lot more scarce in 3.5 than PF. And just to clarify for the "level 0" thing - how is that working with your feat selection? Did everybody (all races) get a feat at 0, then humans get their human feat at level 1? Does everybody get their "real" starting feat at Level 1 as well?

[MaxTheWanderer]

To start off with, what books does your table allow, and what sorts of things do you want this guy to be able to do?

Second, how new are you to 3.5? There are lots of ways to make melee classes more powerful, but many of them run on the "extremely complicated" side of the scale. If we can get a gauge of how familiar you are with the system, we might be able to cut down on some of the craziness that's otherwise guaranteed to be coming your way.

Third, I'm guessing that Toughness feat is set in stone then? One thing that's going to be very different from Pathfinder is feat availability. They're a lot more scarce in 3.5 than PF. And just to clarify for the "level 0" thing - how is that working with your feat selection? Did everybody (all races) get a feat at 0, then humans get their human feat at level 1?

First: All books are kosher except for anything psionic and Tome of Battle. Also, this GM isn't allowing us to start out as a divine class like a Cleric or a Paladin, but when suitable narrative things are met, could be available to multiclass into later. As far as what this guy can do, he needs to be a front line guy. We have a barbarian and a lot of damage in the back, so something more CC or tanky would be totally fine.

Second: Pretty new. I started with 3.5 waaaaaay back in the day, but picked up Pathfinder early on and stuck with it for awhile. I've been in one other 3.5 game somewhat recently that went on for a few months, and that's about it.

Third: Toughness is set, unfortunately. And yes, the feat was from being a human and taking the starting human feat.

[RNightstalker]

Third: Toughness is set, unfortunately. And yes, the feat was from being a human and taking the starting human feat.

Since all books are in except for what you mentioned, retraining should be in, so that would be a way to swap out toughness for at least improved toughness if nothing else.

As far as builds go, Ranger6/Scout4/Dervish10 will give you pretty good skill points, hit points, and also give you the ability to move between attacks via Dervish Dance.

[MaxTheWanderer]

Since all books are in except for what you mentioned, retraining should be in, so that would be a way to swap out toughness for at least improved toughness if nothing else.

Just checked with the GM, and yes, I can retrain that feat. I was mistaken.

[pabelfly]

3.5 is as widely varied as Pathfinder is for builds and feats. Do you have any preference for combat style, race, theme, etc, besides "Martial"?

[RaiKirah]

Being an actual "tank" is even harder in 3.5 than Pathfinder, as ways to force enemies to deal with you are very far between. You might be able to do similar with a battlefield control build along the lines of tripping with a reach weapon. High Strength builds can achieve this on their turn, but you really want a high Dex build to power Combat Reflexes for tripping with AoOs. You would need Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and want Knock Down.

There's a lot of different ways to build, so more of a concept direction and secondary role intent would be helpful. Do you want to be an charismatic leader? Knight + Marshal might be the way to go. Scout and or Survivalist? Ranger + Scout and Swift Hunter could be fun. There's a lot of options for nearly any concept, but you need to know what you're going for early so you can plan how to get there.

Regardless, starting off with a couple levels of Fighter is probably going to be a good idea, as getting two bonus feats and proficiencies and nice HD is going to benefit any martial build

[MaxTheWanderer]

3.5 is as widely varied as Pathfinder is for builds and feats. Do you have any preference for combat style, race, theme, etc, besides "Martial"?

Character is human. As far as combat style, either two-handed or sword and board I think would best fit. Some secondary utility with charisma would be nice too.

[Particle_Man]

Knight or Paladin might match your aristocratic background, assuming you meet the respective alignment prerequisites (LG for paladin, any lawful for knight). Both get benefits from your charisma. The paladin has some spells, so that may not be your cup of tea.

[pabelfly]

Knight or Paladin might match your aristocratic background, assuming you meet the respective alignment prerequisites (LG for paladin, any lawful for knight). Both get benefits from your charisma. The paladin has some spells, so that may not be your cup of tea.

I'd second Paladin. Here's what I'd do for a Paladin:

Take the Holy Warrior alternate class feature for Paladin. This trades Paladin's spellcasting for some bonus feats. If you don't want to deal with spells this is a good trade to make.

Feats:
Travel Devotion - lets you use your Turn Undead class feature to get free movement. Just like Pathfinder, free movement helps you get full attacks off when you can do multiple attacks each turn.

Damage feats:
Power Attack - the bread and butter of two-handed weapon attacks
Leap Attack - improves power attack
Improved Bull Rush - prerequisite feat
Shock Trooper - Power attack forces you to lower attack accuracy for more damage. This instead lets you drop your armor class.

The rest of your feats are up to you. I'd be happy to make more suggestions if that interests you.

[MaxTheWanderer]

I'd second Paladin. Here's what I'd do for a Paladin:

Take the Holy Warrior alternate class feature for Paladin. This trades Paladin's spellcasting for some bonus feats. If you don't want to deal with spells this is a good trade to make.

Feats:
Travel Devotion - lets you use your Turn Undead class feature to get free movement. Just like Pathfinder, free movement helps you get full attacks off when you can do multiple attacks each turn.

Damage feats:
Power Attack - the bread and butter of two-handed weapon attacks
Leap Attack - improves power attack
Improved Bull Rush - prerequisite feat
Shock Trooper - Power attack forces you to lower attack accuracy for more damage. This instead lets you drop your armor class.

The rest of your feats are up to you. I'd be happy to make more suggestions if that interests you.

I do appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately Paladin isn't something we're allowed to play. Our GM has stated that most divine classes aren't available, as the gods are distant and don't dish out spells readily. If you had a suggestion that'd allow for multiclassing into one later or a Cleric, that'd be good, otherwise I have to more or less stay straight martial.

[pabelfly]

I do appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately Paladin isn't something we're allowed to play. Our GM has stated that most divine classes aren't available, as the gods are distant and don't dish out spells readily. If you had a suggestion that'd allow for multiclassing into one later or a Cleric, that'd be good, otherwise I have to more or less stay straight martial.

They wouldn't take a Paladin without spellcasting?

[Efrate]

With crusader off the table and paladin locked behind narrative fiat, not a lot of tanky stuff left. Knight in theory is good but the class is bad and all you get is a crummy challenge. Got enough cha to keep it relevant for a bit but eh.

You could go lock down with a glaive, trip feats and combat relexes. Need combat expertise, improved trip and combat reflexes, so probably fighter x/anything with full bab.

You could go dragonfire adept. You have okay con and all you need is entangling exhalation and you will lock so much down.

Swift hunter is not a tank but let's you leverage your stats to be an okay face and do decent damage.

Or you could go binder from tome of magic. Take improved binding, bind savnok and its free plate, Dr, and swapping spots with allies. Might want ignore special requirements so you do not need to be a jerk and steal stuff.

[RaiKirah]

I do appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately Paladin isn't something we're allowed to play. Our GM has stated that most divine classes aren't available, as the gods are distant and don't dish out spells readily. If you had a suggestion that'd allow for multiclassing into one later or a Cleric, that'd be good, otherwise I have to more or less stay straight martial.

I'd say take a level or two of Marshal for some party buffs based on your CHA and then look to transition into Paladin when narratively available. Fill in with Fighter levels as needed for feats and to stall for a narrative break point into Paladin.

Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian from Drow of the Underdark are flavorful feats that let you do some bodyguard type things, including swapping places with an ally when they are attack. Could be good for character concept fleshing out, even if they're not technically that good as opposed to standard martial character feat chains.

[Particle_Man]

You could go knight with either spiked chain or else spiked armour plus a reach weapon. Then the leap attack/shock trooper combo could work, albeit without a full attack. The third level knight ability gives you nice battlefield control (it is a little harder for enemies to run away to attack squishier foes). Combat reflexes can help here.

Knight has some defensive advantages (the good will save is nice!). And jump is a class skill which mitigates some of the penalty due to the heavy armor you would be wearing.

As for the rest, how optimized is this party? I may be wrong but starting with a level in an npc class suggests to me that it is not going for high optimization, in which case sticking with knight either forever or until you get a prestige class that you like is fine. I do wonder if your party has access to magical healing or does it the slow painful way.

[rel]

How about wildshape variant ranger with master of many forms and warshaper thrown in?
A source of utility outside of spells which you mention wanting to avoid and plenty of combat power through the better combat forms.

[bean illus]

I do appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately Paladin isn't something we're allowed to play. Our GM has stated that most divine classes aren't available, as the gods are distant and don't dish out spells readily. If you had a suggestion that'd allow for multiclassing into one later or a Cleric, that'd be good, otherwise I have to more or less stay straight martial.

Are they minmaxxers?
How many levels do you expect to play for?
Are multiclass penalties enforced?
Is Dragon Magazine allowed?
What type of magic item access will you have?

Sorry if that was already stated.

If paladin isn't allowed, and you are willing to multiclass, you can pick up some extra feats with a martial rogue variant (bottom of page). You would gain 24 skills, and some class features, for +1 BAB. If you wanted, level 2 grants evasion, more skills, and +1 BAB.

Then the fighter, which can be fun, if everyone works together. I'll see if i can find a list of ACFs.

And it's not wrong to add a level or 2 of barbarian. Better hit points and skills than fighter, and level 1 grants +10' land speed, while level 2 grants uncanny dodge. (Uncanny dodge and evasion with a high dex is great on a frontliner)

There's variants and ACFs for all of those. Already you've got ...

Avg 5.16 hp/level, 52 skill points, 3 fighter feats, etc. You do have a big hole developing in your Wisdom save.

You could fix it by switching the rogue for monk. The hp suck, but the saves are great, and the skills ... better than fighter. In the middle of this page are about 10 variants, with different feat combinations.

Popular are; Passive Way (combat expertise and improved trip), and Overwhelming Attack (power attack and improved bullrush are components of dungeon crasher, iirc). Monks get a bad rap, but 2 levels fixes your saves for a while.

Jotunbrud will get you a +4 to trip checks, and at 12th level, Robilar's Gambit.

Human feat Jotunbrud +4
1 Wolf Spirit Barbarian, +10', rage, Wolf Berzerker +4 trip
2 Barbarian, Imp Trip +4
3 Monk, imp unarmed strike, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
4 Fighter, EWP spiked chain
5 Fighter, Improved Initiative
6 X+1, Mage Slayer

I think that's right.


There's always the Horizon Tripper.

[Telonius]

Okay, so looking mainly at frontlining, no ToB, no Paladin, no Psionics. Aristocrat-ish background. Already got a Barbarian, so don't want to step on toes that way.

I'm guessing that the class skills from Aristocrat carry over. If so, Able Learner at first level might be a good idea. Most martial classes (other than Ranger) have pretty terrible skill lists, and with only 10 INT you're going to need all the help you can get in that department (even with the extra from human).

Your Barbarian is probably going to be the one doing the ridiculous amounts of damage. How would you feel about doing more Battlefield Control? Normally you'd be locked out of Improved Trip from your low INT score, but there are a couple of ways to get around that.

A two-level dip in Passive Way Monk would give you both Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and you don't have to meet the prereqs. All good saves. Costs you a point of BAB, but for the options it opens up, it would probably be worth it. After that, a few levels in Fighter to pick up necessary feats. It would look something like this.

0: Aristocrat. Toughness (standard first feat), Something (Human feat), Something (Flaw)
1: Passive Way Monk 1. Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise.
2: Passive Way Monk 2. Improved Trip.
3: Fighter 1. Power Attack (level 3 feat), Improved Bull Rush (Fighter feat)
4: Fighter 2. Combat Reflexes (Fighter Feat)
5: Fighter 3.
6: Fighter 4. Mage Slayer (level 6 feat), Something (fighter feat)
7: Fighter 5
8: Fighter 6. Shock Trooper (Fighter feat)

(And unfortunately I will have to stop there for now, as my cat is staging a revolt).

[AceDragonKing]

i have a “ terrible” idea yes i know you already probably already have you lvl from character creation. but hear me out

lvl 1hyena tribe hunter (+2 vs and on trip attempts) and (you get to ignore prerequisites for improved trip)

lvl 1 improved trip (bonus fighter feat)

lvl 1 pebble under foot (bonus feat for lvl 1 fighter) +4 on trip attempts on creatures at least 1 size category bigger

lvl 2 knock-down (bonus fighter feat) (if you do at least 10 points of damage with a single blow you get an free trip attempt as an immeadiate action)

so if you hit your opponent and do at least 10 damage (use a scythe they have a higher base damage and have the trip property) Then you make a trip attempt 1d20+str (2 for you right now) +2 (hyena tribe) +4 (improved trip) +4? (depends on size of enemy) vs your opponents 1d20+str

soooo 1d20+ 8 (possibly +12) vs your opponents 1d20+str

thanks to improved trip when your opponent is tripped you get a free attack

bonus if you can enchant your weapon with sweeping or grasping then you get another +4 and +2 bonus respectively to your trip attempts

so all together that would be theoretically 1d20+14(possibly 18)

if your third lvl is in barbarian specifically the spiritual totem (lion) barbarian from complete champion you get pounce meaning you can now move and make a full attack which will set up your knockdown beautifully at higher lvls

oops i got sidetracked but if your third lvl is in barbarian then thanks to rage you will now meat the prerequisites for “wolf berserker” then you get another +4 vs and on trip attempts
but you can’t take that at this lvl so save that for lvl 6. while at lvl 3 take “curling wave strike”. so that when you trip someone you get a free trip attempt on the guy next to him.

which means if your with me here that’s 1d20+18(20 with rage on) (24 with rage and the opponent is bigger) vs your opponents 1d20+str

so your opponent would need str score of 50 to get a 20 modifer for his str which means unless your opponent has str 50 and is the same size category or smaller than you then you will have the advantage on this attempt.

Ps. when people stand up from prone (after losing trip) this provoked an attack of opportunity which means you might be able to apply your knock-down feat again. locking your opponent into an eternal state of frustration and dread as you have now effectively (in video game terms) stun locked your enemy

[Maat Mons]

Nitpick: You described Cleric and Paladin as “deriving their power from a deity.” Neither class actually requires a patron deity, except in certain campaign settings. And in those same settings, Druids and Rangers also rely on a deity to gain their spells. So this whole idea of some divine casters being tied to divine beings and some not being tied to them is not supported in any official rules. … Except for Favored Soul. … And Mystic. … And some prestige classes. Favored Souls are required to be sponsored by a deity in all campaign settings. And Mystics are forbidden for having a patron deity in all settings. Prestige classes are all over the place.

I’d be a little tempted to play up the Gaston angle by being a Bard and singing songs about your own greatness.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

With that Dexterity and that Charisma, I'd go for a Daring Outlaw build. That's Swashbuckler + Rogue, taking the Daring Outlaw feat to make your Swashbuckler levels progress Sneak Attack. Wade into melee with your Barbarian friend as a flanker, relying on Dexterity, light armor, and your Dodge class feature to keep your AC high. You won't benefit from Int to damage, but with Two Weapon Fighting and full Sneak Attack that really doesn't matter.

Pros:
- Dex + armor + Dodge as a class feature means you've got solid AC, fulfilling your tanking desire. Plus you've got Evasion for spells and dragon breath. You've even got the feats to spare for Shield Proficiency.
- Swashbuckler is a much better melee chassis than pure Rogue, with the same HP and BAB as a Fighter. This means you can...
- Two Weapon Fighting in melee safely and consistently, probably with a rapier and short-sword. The easiest, most reliable way to activate...
- Full Sneak Attack. You've got damage for days, and you'll be taking enough levels of Rogue anyway to pick up the Penetrating Strike ACF, letting you do half SA damage even to creatures normally immune (melee attacks only). Use the Tumble skill and 5-ft-steps liberally to flank with your Barbarian buddy.
- All the skills you need are on your lists, including Diplomacy and Bluff if you want to put your Charisma to use. Your bonus skill point for being Human will help make up for your low Int, and you're getting more skill points than a typical tanky class.
- Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, letting you dump all of your ability increases into Dex instead of splitting them with Str.
- Style.

Cons:
- You don't get to take advantage of Insightful Strike unless you get an Intelligence boosting item. It stings, but it's ultimately not a big deal compared to your SA damage.
- You lose a lot of the tricks and especially skill points of a normal Rogue. You're still better off than a normal Swashbuckler or Fighter, but that's not a high bar to meet.

Down to the build. The big choice you're going to be making in the early levels is whether you want Rogue first, Swashbuckler first, or to switch between the two. Swashbuckler will give you more HP (especially if you get to count your 'first' level for max still) and slightly better accuracy; Rogue gives you improved damage right out of the gate, sweet sweet skill points (especially if you get to do 4x at your 'first' level), and more powerful class features. Between the two, I prefer Rogue first (Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X), but it is a matter of preference.

Regardless, you want precisely three levels of Rogue, and at Rogue 3 take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape) so you can still fight effectively against constructs and the undead. After that it's all Swashbuckler, unless you want to go for a prestige class. For skills, the only must-have is Tumble and 5 ranks in Balance. For feats, the must-haves are Two Weapon Fighting (probably 1st level; definitely if you start with Rogue), Daring Outlaw (6th), and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (probably 9th). Aside from that, you've got a lot of flexibility; you could even pick up Shield Proficiency to be even tankier and use spiked armor/shield/gauntlet as your offhand weapon (at high levels, switch to an Animated shield to leave your hands free). One thing to keep in mind is an oft-overlooked clause of Weapon Finesse: you take your Armor Check Penalty as a penalty to attack rolls, so masterwork armor/shields and mithril are your friends.

[MaxTheWanderer]

I'd say take a level or two of Marshal for some party buffs based on your CHA and then look to transition into Paladin when narratively available. Fill in with Fighter levels as needed for feats and to stall for a narrative break point into Paladin.

Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian from Drow of the Underdark are flavorful feats that let you do some bodyguard type things, including swapping places with an ally when they are attack. Could be good for character concept fleshing out, even if they're not technically that good as opposed to standard martial character feat chains.

This was something I was considering as well. I like the idea of Marshal, and it leans into the boastful aspect of the character.

You could go knight with either spiked chain or else spiked armour plus a reach weapon. Then the leap attack/shock trooper combo could work, albeit without a full attack. The third level knight ability gives you nice battlefield control (it is a little harder for enemies to run away to attack squishier foes). Combat reflexes can help here.

Knight has some defensive advantages (the good will save is nice!). And jump is a class skill which mitigates some of the penalty due to the heavy armor you would be wearing.

As for the rest, how optimized is this party? I may be wrong but starting with a level in an npc class suggests to me that it is not going for high optimization, in which case sticking with knight either forever or until you get a prestige class that you like is fine. I do wonder if your party has access to magical healing or does it the slow painful way.

Optimization is not high on the list. There's a wizard that's gonna be pretty tuned, but that's about it. As far as healing goes, we'll have a druid, so we do have healing.

Are they minmaxxers?
How many levels do you expect to play for?
Are multiclass penalties enforced?
Is Dragon Magazine allowed?
What type of magic item access will you have?

Sorry if that was already stated.

If paladin isn't allowed, and you are willing to multiclass, you can pick up some extra feats with a martial rogue variant (bottom of page). You would gain 24 skills, and some class features, for +1 BAB. If you wanted, level 2 grants evasion, more skills, and +1 BAB.

Then the fighter, which can be fun, if everyone works together. I'll see if i can find a list of ACFs.

And it's not wrong to add a level or 2 of barbarian. Better hit points and skills than fighter, and level 1 grants +10' land speed, while level 2 grants uncanny dodge. (Uncanny dodge and evasion with a high dex is great on a frontliner)

There's variants and ACFs for all of those. Already you've got ...

Avg 5.16 hp/level, 52 skill points, 3 fighter feats, etc. You do have a big hole developing in your Wisdom save.

You could fix it by switching the rogue for monk. The hp suck, but the saves are great, and the skills ... better than fighter. In the middle of this page are about 10 variants, with different feat combinations.

Popular are; Passive Way (combat expertise and improved trip), and Overwhelming Attack (power attack and improved bullrush are components of dungeon crasher, iirc). Monks get a bad rap, but 2 levels fixes your saves for a while.

Jotunbrud will get you a +4 to trip checks, and at 12th level, Robilar's Gambit.

Human feat Jotunbrud +4
1 Wolf Spirit Barbarian, +10', rage, Wolf Berzerker +4 trip
2 Barbarian, Imp Trip +4
3 Monk, imp unarmed strike, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
4 Fighter, EWP spiked chain
5 Fighter, Improved Initiative
6 X+1, Mage Slayer

I think that's right.


There's always theHorizon Tripper.

As far as levels go, there's no determined cap. Multiclassing's fine and Dragon Magazine is allowed as far as I know, may be case by case. As far as magic items go, it was implied that they will be fairly limited.

Okay, so looking mainly at frontlining, no ToB, no Paladin, no Psionics. Aristocrat-ish background. Already got a Barbarian, so don't want to step on toes that way.

I'm guessing that the class skills from Aristocrat carry over. If so, Able Learner at first level might be a good idea. Most martial classes (other than Ranger) have pretty terrible skill lists, and with only 10 INT you're going to need all the help you can get in that department (even with the extra from human).

Your Barbarian is probably going to be the one doing the ridiculous amounts of damage. How would you feel about doing more Battlefield Control? Normally you'd be locked out of Improved Trip from your low INT score, but there are a couple of ways to get around that.

A two-level dip in Passive Way Monk would give you both Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and you don't have to meet the prereqs. All good saves. Costs you a point of BAB, but for the options it opens up, it would probably be worth it. After that, a few levels in Fighter to pick up necessary feats. It would look something like this.

0: Aristocrat. Toughness (standard first feat), Something (Human feat), Something (Flaw)
1: Passive Way Monk 1. Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise.
2: Passive Way Monk 2. Improved Trip.
3: Fighter 1. Power Attack (level 3 feat), Improved Bull Rush (Fighter feat)
4: Fighter 2. Combat Reflexes (Fighter Feat)
5: Fighter 3.
6: Fighter 4. Mage Slayer (level 6 feat), Something (fighter feat)
7: Fighter 5
8: Fighter 6. Shock Trooper (Fighter feat)

(And unfortunately I will have to stop there for now, as my cat is staging a revolt).

I've done some fighter/monk mixes in the past to a lot of success, and this seems pretty nice on the control side.

Nitpick: You described Cleric and Paladin as “deriving their power from a deity.” Neither class actually requires a patron deity, except in certain campaign settings. And in those same settings, Druids and Rangers also rely on a deity to gain their spells. So this whole idea of some divine casters being tied to divine beings and some not being tied to them is not supported in any official rules. … Except for Favored Soul. … And Mystic. … And some prestige classes. Favored Souls are required to be sponsored by a deity in all campaign settings. And Mystics are forbidden for having a patron deity in all settings. Prestige classes are all over the place.

I’d be a little tempted to play up the Gaston angle by being a Bard and singing songs about your own greatness.

Most of the group had also suggested bard! I've considered it. And yeah, the GM's explanation on the class restrictions I think more comes from wanting to limit magical healing than anything else.

With that Dexterity and that Charisma, I'd go for a Daring Outlaw build. That's Swashbuckler + Rogue, taking the Daring Outlaw feat to make your Swashbuckler levels progress Sneak Attack. Wade into melee with your Barbarian friend as a flanker, relying on Dexterity, light armor, and your Dodge class feature to keep your AC high. You won't benefit from Int to damage, but with Two Weapon Fighting and full Sneak Attack that really doesn't matter.

Pros:
- Dex + armor + Dodge as a class feature means you've got solid AC, fulfilling your tanking desire. Plus you've got Evasion for spells and dragon breath. You've even got the feats to spare for Shield Proficiency.
- Swashbuckler is a much better melee chassis than pure Rogue, with the same HP and BAB as a Fighter. This means you can...
- Two Weapon Fighting in melee safely and consistently, probably with a rapier and short-sword. The easiest, most reliable way to activate...
- Full Sneak Attack. You've got damage for days, and you'll be taking enough levels of Rogue anyway to pick up the Penetrating Strike ACF, letting you do half SA damage even to creatures normally immune (melee attacks only). Use the Tumble skill and 5-ft-steps liberally to flank with your Barbarian buddy.
- All the skills you need are on your lists, including Diplomacy and Bluff if you want to put your Charisma to use. Your bonus skill point for being Human will help make up for your low Int, and you're getting more skill points than a typical tanky class.
- Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, letting you dump all of your ability increases into Dex instead of splitting them with Str.
- Style.

Cons:
- You don't get to take advantage of Insightful Strike unless you get an Intelligence boosting item. It stings, but it's ultimately not a big deal compared to your SA damage.
- You lose a lot of the tricks and especially skill points of a normal Rogue. You're still better off than a normal Swashbuckler or Fighter, but that's not a high bar to meet.

Down to the build. The big choice you're going to be making in the early levels is whether you want Rogue first, Swashbuckler first, or to switch between the two. Swashbuckler will give you more HP (especially if you get to count your 'first' level for max still) and slightly better accuracy; Rogue gives you improved damage right out of the gate, sweet sweet skill points (especially if you get to do 4x at your 'first' level), and more powerful class features. Between the two, I prefer Rogue first (Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X), but it is a matter of preference.

Regardless, you want precisely three levels of Rogue, and at Rogue 3 take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape) so you can still fight effectively against constructs and the undead. After that it's all Swashbuckler, unless you want to go for a prestige class. For skills, the only must-have is Tumble and 5 ranks in Balance. For feats, the must-haves are Two Weapon Fighting (probably 1st level; definitely if you start with Rogue), Daring Outlaw (6th), and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (probably 9th). Aside from that, you've got a lot of flexibility; you could even pick up Shield Proficiency to be even tankier and use spiked armor/shield/gauntlet as your offhand weapon (at high levels, switch to an Animated shield to leave your hands free). One thing to keep in mind is an oft-overlooked clause of Weapon Finesse: you take your Armor Check Penalty as a penalty to attack rolls, so masterwork armor/shields and mithril are your friends.

I really like this. Dex-y fighters I've always enjoyed, and having the barbarian lets me set up easy for sneak attack.


Just wanted to say that I'm thankful for all the suggestions! Sorry if my initial post is lacking, but all this feedback is awesome.

[Gavinfoxx]

.. Wanting to limit magical healing? But he allows Druid, Bard, Ranger? Does he have any idea how the game, and healing in this game, or indeed anything about the meta of this game at all, actually works?