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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Wasn't there a passing comment in OotS about some one (Haley?) cleaning black mould out of some showers, and it dropping some minor treasure?

    EDIT: Ah, found it.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-10-19 at 01:58 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Both the monsters and the items are obvious produced by spontaneous generation of the epic level dungeon environment.
    The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.

  3. - Top - End - #813
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Wasn't there a passing comment in OotS about some one (Haley?) cleaning black mould out of some showers, and it dropping some minor treasure?

    EDIT: Ah, found it.
    If so, that sounds like a great reason to use anything other than random monsters to guard a gate - kind of like the other Scribblers did

    Of course, all the other scribblers had innate magic of some kind, so maybe Serini just got dealt the short (heh) straw.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #814
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I don’t think the monsters Xykon is fighting are guarding anything.

    Serini didn’t put them there. She’s not training them or giving them treasure.

    They’re just the random monsters that show up in every empty dungeon.

    There’s a good chance that the monsters don’t DO anything; they’re not technically part of the gate defense. They’re a diversion so that people don’t spend any time looking for the teleport traps and other hidden dungeon features that would lead to the real gate.

    As long as Xykon keeps fighting monsters, he’s not getting any closer to the gate.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-10-19 at 03:41 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t think the monsters Xykon is fighting are guarding anything.

    Serini didn’t put them there. She’s not training them or giving them treasure.

    They’re just the random monsters that show up in every empty dungeon.
    The implication here


    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html


    is that, at least initially, Serini "filled the dungeon" (by lowering monsters into it, in cages) rather than just constructing the dungeon and "waiting for monsters to show up".
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-10-19 at 03:43 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    As long as Xykon keeps fighting monsters, he’s not getting any closer to the gate.
    I'm reminded of the Futurama global warming PSA, where they believe the problem is solved forever just by getting a bigger ice cube every time. All they need are stronger and stronger monsters!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #817
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm reminded of the Futurama global warming PSA, where they believe the problem is solved forever just by getting a bigger ice cube every time.
    The commentary on that episode is great!

    Though, to be fair, the commentary on all the episodes is great.
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  8. - Top - End - #818
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It probably speaks more to her confidence in her abilities to stop the Gate from getting destroyed. I don't think she yet knows that a victory by Xykon will lead just as directly to the end of existence as the good guys keeping him from winning would. So it's something more like "I've stopped these two paladins, but clearly heroes know where the final Gate is and I can't move it, so one of them is going to get through and break it eventually."

    (Granted, putting treasure in her dungeon probably isn't helping matters.)
    That still goes to the strength of her defences. Even if she think Xykon wouldn't break the gate, and some unspecified adventurers might be higher risk, she still doesn't think her defences would keep them out.

  9. - Top - End - #819
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I suspect they aren't actually "her" dungeons and the traps just reroute people to a bunch of random dungeons across the Material. Otherwise, how'd they have items?
    There are two serious problem with linking these entrances to existing dungeons. We know the portal is two-sided, but what orientation do you put it?

    In one direction, you've made a route connecting a door at Monster's Hollow to the entrance of some random dungeon elsewhere. So the jig is up when invaders "finish" their dungeon crawl by finding the other entrance. And you've created a route for adventurers exploring the other dungeon to discover Monster's Hollow.

    In the other direction, while invaders at Monster's Hollow will be routed to a dead end in the other dungeon... you've linked the entrance to the other dungeon to Kraagor's Tomb, the place you're trying to hide.

    The shell game makes the most sense if it's connected to completely subterranean dungeons that wouldn't otherwise have exits.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-20 at 02:19 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #820
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    That still goes to the strength of her defences. Even if she think Xykon wouldn't break the gate, and some unspecified adventurers might be higher risk, she still doesn't think her defences would keep them out.
    I don’t believe that Xykon has made even the smallest step in breaking down the defense.

    The first line of defense is “figure out that the monsters have nothing at all to do with the defense”.

    Xykon hasn’t even come close.

    Except… maybe he has. Maybe he understands that he doesn’t have to fight a single monster to get to the gate, and he’s just having a good time.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-10-20 at 02:26 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t believe that Xykon has made even the smallest step in breaking down the defense.

    The first line of defense is “figure out that the monsters have nothing at all to do with the defense”.

    Xykon hasn’t even come close.

    Except… maybe he has. Maybe he understands that he doesn’t have to fight a single monster to get to the gate, and he’s just having a good time.
    He has made a small step, by choosing to eliminate doors they've gone to already. Unless there are infinite doors, which does not seem to be the case, eventually they'll run out and realize some of their assumptions are wrong and revisit them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #822
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    He has made a small step, by choosing to eliminate doors they've gone to already. Unless there are infinite doors, which does not seem to be the case, eventually they'll run out and realize some of their assumptions are wrong and revisit them.
    I just realized, the MitD might have been more help than we previously thought, because if his sabotage comes to light the assumptions team evil will probably rethink is that the doors were actually correctly being marked, not that the doors can be taken at face value.

  13. - Top - End - #823
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The commentary on that episode is great!

    Though, to be fair, the commentary on all the episodes is great.
    I was trying to remember if we had talked about this recently, but it was another friend who told me how good the Futurama commentaries are. So we watched some of them a few months ago. Unfortunately, since then I've lost our DVD remote, and then I lost the replacement I ordered about three days after it arrived.

  14. - Top - End - #824
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Belkar's feeling like his old self. Good.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516


    I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY

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  15. - Top - End - #825
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t believe that Xykon has made even the smallest step in breaking down the defense.

    The first line of defense is “figure out that the monsters have nothing at all to do with the defense”.

    Xykon hasn’t even come close.

    Except… maybe he has. Maybe he understands that he doesn’t have to fight a single monster to get to the gate, and he’s just having a good time.
    He's only been there a week or so. I don't think not having made progress yet means much in terms of whether he will.

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I just realized, the MitD might have been more help than we previously thought, because if his sabotage comes to light the assumptions team evil will probably rethink is that the doors were actually correctly being marked, not that the doors can be taken at face value.
    That will just buy time though.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-21 at 02:00 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #826
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I just realized, the MitD might have been more help than we previously thought, because if his sabotage comes to light the assumptions team evil will probably rethink is that the doors were actually correctly being marked, not that the doors can be taken at face value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    That will just buy time though.
    This.

    Yeah they'll probably have to start over (and not let MitD near the paint again, assuming they think he just did it out of affable bumbling/incompetence rather than deliberate sabotage), but the fact still remains that there are finite doors. It's a delaying tactic, like the traps, nothing more.

    Worse - the stronger Team Evil get, the more doors they can clear in a day.

    Worse still - the monsters apparently take a while to respawn. Given that Oona is worried that they might "overfish" the Hollow, there is likely a rate of doors/night that will eventually exceed what the dungeons can generate.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  17. - Top - End - #827
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    And last I checked "delaying the inevitable" wasn't the same as "removing the root problem".
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  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Given that Oona is worried that they might "overfish" the Hollow, there is likely a rate of doors/night that will eventually exceed what the dungeons can generate.
    This might matter though. At some point she could decide to put her foot down and try to stop TE from exploring more.
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  19. - Top - End - #829
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Agree.

    But it's also worth noting that "delaying until the problem solves itself" really is a solution if you can actually delay that long.

  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Agree.

    But it's also worth noting that "delaying until the problem solves itself" really is a solution if you can actually delay that long.
    You'll be waiting a long time for it to save itself if you attack and potential solutions that show up.

  21. - Top - End - #831
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This might matter though. At some point she could decide to put her foot down and try to stop TE from exploring more.
    Oona's objection to Xykon/Redcloak and a silver piece will get her a hunk of cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Agree.

    But it's also worth noting that "delaying until the problem solves itself" really is a solution if you can actually delay that long.
    How exactly would the problem "solve itself?" Both of TE's principals are immortal.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  22. - Top - End - #832
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oona's objection to Xykon/Redcloak and a silver piece will get her a hunk of cheese
    She was vital backup Redcloak needed to defeat team Dwarf. He had to ask for her help. So that suggests that she's quite strong. Probably not strong enough to deal with Xykon, but strong enough that he'd probably consider it not worth the effort to fight her over it.
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  23. - Top - End - #833
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I dunno, considering the surprise hit Minrah got in at first and the fact that he was getting hit in the face with a literal artifact, plus action economy being a thing, I dunno how much of that was Oona. I certainly don't think she's weak, but I haven't seen many impressive displays of martial prowess on her part just yet.

    Granted, we've had like one comic with her actually fighting so that's probably the biggest factor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  24. - Top - End - #834
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    She was vital backup Redcloak needed to defeat team Dwarf. He had to ask for her help. So that suggests that she's quite strong. Probably not strong enough to deal with Xykon, but strong enough that he'd probably consider it not worth the effort to fight her over it.
    Tsukiko was strong too, and Xykon had no qualms about her getting iced once he perceived her as getting in the way of the larger objective. Redcloak absolutely wouldn't, he's on a literal (un)holy crusade. No way would they stop trying to find the gate just because Oona "put her foot down."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  25. - Top - End - #835
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm pretty sure Redcloak could literally use Planar Ally to summon outsiders comparable to her in power, though even ignoring the caster OPness in basically every edition of D&D ever that's also because Redcloak is almost Epic himself, but she's perfectly willing to work with him and she doesn't have any of the problems that summoning outsiders has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  26. - Top - End - #836
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Oona can keep up with Team Evil fighting monsters that give Xykon XP, in fact she's still good too go when Redcloak's tapped out. With her tribe behind her back, she probably can't beat Lord Killerbone and the Pirate Goblin, but she can probably provide an opportunity for somebody else to do so.
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  27. - Top - End - #837
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Oona can keep up with Team Evil fighting monsters that give Xykon XP, in fact she's still good too go when Redcloak's tapped out. With her tribe behind her back, she probably can't beat Lord Killerbone and the Pirate Goblin, but she can probably provide an opportunity for somebody else to do so.
    I'm not denying she's high level, I'm denying that her putting her foot down would be more than a speed bump to them unless she got backup soon afterward.

    And my larger point is that if they ever got to the point that most of the dungeons were in replenish status without finding the Gate, chances are they'd start to consider whether chicanery is afoot.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  28. - Top - End - #838
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I think you and I understand "putting her foot down" differently.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I think you and I understand "putting her foot down" differently.
    Clearly we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm not denying she's high level, I'm denying that her putting her foot down would be more than a speed bump to them unless she got backup soon afterward.
    I would be significantly more likely to agree if we knew the breadth and scope of her defenses. As of the current strip, I am not prepared to commit to such an assertion.
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