A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 24 of 29 FirstFirst ... 14151617181920212223242526272829 LastLast
Results 691 to 720 of 851
  1. - Top - End - #691
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    And the gods fighting is an especially bad thing.
    I understand it's not a big deal of gods of the same color fight. It's when gods different colors fight that they risk creating a multicolored snarl.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 03:17 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #692
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Man, but Hylgia's case is nothing like Tarquin's. Tarquin is not condemning himself to Hel for this.
    Yes, I was making an analogy and was not directly calling two characters' situations completely identical. The original point was "I do not trust this untrustworthy character, just as I would not trust this other untrustworthy character".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 03:57 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  3. - Top - End - #693
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, I was making an analogy and was not directly calling two characters' situations completely identical. The original point was "I do not trust this untrustworthy character, just as I would not trust this other untrustworthy character".
    Would you buy a used chariot from Tarquin?
    Would you buy a used mine cart from Hilgya?

    Something along those lines?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-10-13 at 04:13 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!

  4. - Top - End - #694
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I still think there's a clear difference between "trusting Tarquin to be self-aware about his ego" and "trusting Hilgya and Loki to understand the dwarves' planar cosmology" - but I understand Peelee and I won't see eye to eye on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I understand it's not a big deal of gods of the same color fight. It's when gods different colors fight that they risk creating a multicolored snarl.
    Well, yes and no - no risk of a Snarl between the two of them perhaps, but I imagine Odin's Rules are there to govern intra-pantheon conflicts, and those breaking down might cause other deities to get involved all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  5. - Top - End - #695
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Would you buy a used chariot from Tarquin?
    Would you buy a used mine cart from Hilgya?

    Something along those lines?
    Yes. They don't need to have the same, or even similar, issues regarding their faults. All they need is to be self-delusional, such that any obviously self-serving declaration they make is not something I will believe offhand without some form of corroboration.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 05:45 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  6. - Top - End - #696
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, I was making an analogy and was not directly calling two characters' situations completely identical. The original point was "I do not trust this untrustworthy character, just as I would not trust this other untrustworthy character".
    Being untrustworthy doesn't mean being uncapable of telling the truth.

    Hylgia doesn't need a justification to be the way she is, she is a cleric of Loki. She could do just as she wants without inventing that Loki's loophole, and then when she is old enough fight to the death vs anyone, who cares? Why go with that complicated lie if she doesn't benefit of it? She used a complicated plan to steal gold from her family, that is a benefit. But Loki's thing? Where is her benefit there?

    Untrustworthy people lie when they gain something with it. Hylgia's lie only affects one victim... Hylgia.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-13 at 06:05 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #697
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Being untrustworthy doesn't mean being uncapable of telling the truth.

    Hylgia doesn't need a justification to be the way she is, she is a cleric of Loki. She could do just as she wants without inventing that Loki's loophole, and then when she is old enough fight to the death vs anyone, who cares? Why go with that complicated lie if she doesn't benefit of it? She used a complicated plan to steal gold from her family, that is a benefit. But Loki's thing? Where is her benefit there?

    Untrustworthy people lie when they gain something with it. Hylgia's lie only affects one victim... Hylgia.
    The relevant charge against Hylgia isn't about deceiving others, it's about her misreading things and running way too far with the misinterpretation.

    Well, I think some are going further and accusing her of being prone to forming self-satisfying delusions, but I don't expect we have evidence to persuasively argue that.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 06:23 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #698
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Well, I think some are going further and accusing her of being prone to forming self-satisfying delusions, but I don't expect we have evidence to persuasively argue that.
    I think her descriptions of Ivan and Durkon are two pretty good points in favor of her "forming self-satisfying delusions."

  9. - Top - End - #699
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Being untrustworthy doesn't mean being uncapable of telling the truth.
    I agree, but it also means that their credibility is shot even when they do tell the truth, because everything they say is suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Untrustworthy people lie when they gain something with it. Hylgia's lie only affects one victim... Hylgia.
    ... Yes, I have been saying that constantly - its exactly what I mean by "self-serving". Hilgya does stand to gain by lying to herself. Specifically, she thinks stands to gain the freedom to do whatever she wants without worrying about Hel. The fact that she's fooling herself and is thus also the victim has no bearing on this.

    Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work. Only the author can, as I've already described. If you want to keep going in circles where nothing you say invalidates my belief that she's wrong, we certainly can, but it seems like you have an expectation that you can find some way to convince me that her wholly unsupported notion that benefits her in the highly specific way that she needs to not be damned is objectively wrong. You cannot. Again, we read the same comic. I haven't missed anything. We just reached two different conclusions. I cannot convince you any more than you can convince me.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 07:49 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  10. - Top - End - #700
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think her descriptions of Ivan and Durkon are two pretty good points in favor of her "forming self-satisfying delusions."
    Well I mean, there's no skill ranks that will teach her how to understand or feel empathy towards dwarven men. There are however skill ranks that will teach her the truth about Valhalla and The Bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  11. - Top - End - #701
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well I mean, there's no skill ranks that will teach her how to understand or feel empathy towards dwarven men. There are however skill ranks that will teach her the truth about Valhalla and The Bet.
    I'm sure people have made this point, but there's no indicator she used those things, and we know from Durkon's relative lack of Knowledge (Religion) that we can't assume a higher-level cleric actually is all that knowledgeable. We do have direct evidence Hilgya lies to herself to create self-serving narratives to justify her feelings and justify doing what she wants to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree, but it also means that their credibility is shot even when they do tell the truth, because everything they say is suspect.

    ... Yes, I have been saying that constantly - its exactly what I mean by "self-serving". Hilgya does stand to gain by lying to herself. Specifically, she thinks stands to gain the freedom to do whatever she wants without worrying about Hel. The fact that she's fooling herself and is thus also the victim has no bearing on this.

    Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work. Only the author can, as I've already described. If you want to keep going in circles where nothing you say invalidates my belief that she's wrong, we certainly can, but it seems like you have an expectation that you can find some way to convince me that her wholly unsupported notion that benefits her in the highly specific way that she needs to not be damned is objectively wrong. You cannot. Again, we read the same comic. I haven't missed anything. We just reached two different conclusions. I cannot convince you any more than you can convince me.
    Once again I agree with you and I think you've already said everything else I would say.

  12. - Top - End - #702
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work.
    Again, we read the same comic. I haven't missed anything.
    I cannot convince you any more than you can convince me.
    If this is your attitude, I don't really see why you continue to respond in this very debate. But I guess that's the nature of debates on the internet!
    Last edited by pyrefiend; 2021-10-13 at 09:33 PM.
    Witch Razor Blood Sage
    (Links both lead to ToB disciplines I made!)

  13. - Top - End - #703
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work. Only the author can, as I've already described. If you want to keep going in circles where nothing you say invalidates my belief that she's wrong, we certainly can, but it seems like you have an expectation that you can find some way to convince me that her wholly unsupported notion that benefits her in the highly specific way that she needs to not be damned is objectively wrong.
    But it's not wholly unsupported. We have evidence in favor including

    • She is a high level cleric of Loki, which has a causal relation to knowledge of Loki's teachings
    • We have circumstantial evidence Loki can claim Dwarven souls
    • We know Loki has approved of Hilgya's adherence to his teachings


    It's not a slam dunk case for sure. It's all just circumstantial -- but for that matter so is everything you cite -- to the hypothesis Hilgya knows how Dwarven worshippers of Loki can avoid Hel. So there is plenty of room for the facts to be consistent with the hypothesis Hilgya being completely wrong.

    But it's definitely not completely unsupported. We have, IIRC, absolutely no direct evidence, so weighing the circumstantial evidence is all we can do. And if you're not putting the evidence for one side on the scales, well, I suppose it would naturally tilt to the other side.

    I presume you're just overexaggerating when you say "wholly unsupported", but it's not obvious to me that's the case.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 10:23 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #704
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I'm sure people have made this point, but there's no indicator she used those things, and we know from Durkon's relative lack of Knowledge (Religion) that we can't assume a higher-level cleric actually is all that knowledgeable. We do have direct evidence Hilgya lies to herself to create self-serving narratives to justify her feelings and justify doing what she wants to do.
    To put the sabaton on the other foot, we've seen her lie to herself about dwarven men/families/relationships, but you're making just as much of a leap assuming that applies to setting metaphysics and her eternal soul. And as noted, there are actually mechanics for the latter, so I have plenty of reason to treat them differently.

    I'll also second Vikenlugaid's point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Hylgia doesn't need a justification to be the way she is, she is a cleric of Loki. She could do just as she wants without inventing that Loki's loophole, and then when she is old enough fight to the death vs anyone, who cares? Why go with that complicated lie if she doesn't benefit of it? She used a complicated plan to steal gold from her family, that is a benefit. But Loki's thing? Where is her benefit there?
    ^ If none of it is true, she can just do the old dwarven staple of picking a fight with a tree when she's old and grey and flip Hel off that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  15. - Top - End - #705
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    If this is your attitude, I don't really see why you continue to respond in this very debate. But I guess that's the nature of debates on the internet!
    Because it's not a debate? I've openly said, several times, I do not expect to convince others of my view and they cannot convince me of their view. If people want to explore my reasoning then I'm perfectly happy to lay it out and point out why I'm unconvinced by theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    But it's not wholly unsupported. We have evidence in favor including

    • She is a high level cleric of Loki, which has a causal relation to knowledge of Loki's teachings
    • We have circumstantial evidence Loki can claim Dwarven souls
    • We know Loki has approved of Hilgya's adherence to his teachings
    For the first, Durkon is a high level Cleric of Thor and yet believes that Thor hates trees. As do virtually all dwarves, apparently. So being a high level Cleric means nothing in this situation.
    For the second, of course he can, if they die with honor, which includes in battle, which we know is pretty baked into Dwarven society to bit shy away from. This also means nothing.
    Third,if my kid says "all I have to do is clean my room every day and I get to go to Disneyland!", then I can still express approval of the clean room and work ethic every day despite never having said anything about going to Disneyland for it. This, too, means nothing.

    Those aren't even circumstantial. All three do not have any actual relevance. The first is the closest, but we've seen that characters, even high level clerics, even an entire race, can be completely wrong about supposed divine mandates. Now, when an entire race believes it, like the trees thing, it might have enough belief power to cut some semblance of mustard. But when it's just a single person? I wouldn't put money on that horse.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  16. - Top - End - #706
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Because it's not a debate? I've openly said, several times, I do not expect to convince others of my view and they cannot convince me of their view. If people want to explore my reasoning then I'm perfectly happy to lay it out and point out why I'm unconvinced by theirs.
    But then... why say anything about it? If you really believe that nothing you say will convince anyone, and nothing anyone says to you will convince you, then what's the point of saying anything?
    Witch Razor Blood Sage
    (Links both lead to ToB disciplines I made!)

  17. - Top - End - #707
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Because it's not a debate? I've openly said, several times, I do not expect to convince others of my view and they cannot convince me of their view. If people want to explore my reasoning then I'm perfectly happy to lay it out and point out why I'm unconvinced by theirs.


    For the first, Durkon is a high level Cleric of Thor and yet believes that Thor hates trees. As do virtually all dwarves, apparently. So being a high level Cleric means nothing in this situation.
    For the second, of course he can, if they die with honor, which includes in battle, which we know is pretty baked into Dwarven society to bit shy away from. This also means nothing.
    Third,if my kid says "all I have to do is clean my room every day and I get to go to Disneyland!", then I can still express approval of the clean room and work ethic every day despite never having said anything about going to Disneyland for it. This, too, means nothing.

    Those aren't even circumstantial. All three do not have any actual relevance. The first is the closest, but we've seen that characters, even high level clerics, even an entire race, can be completely wrong about supposed divine mandates. Now, when an entire race believes it, like the trees thing, it might have enough belief power to cut some semblance of mustard. But when it's just a single person? I wouldn't put money on that horse.
    Great. And in the same sense, Hilgya's mistaken opinion about Ivan and Durkon mean nothing and is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 10:55 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #708
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    But it's not wholly unsupported. We have evidence in favor including

    • She is a high level cleric of Loki, which has a causal relation to knowledge of Loki's teachings
    • We have circumstantial evidence Loki can claim Dwarven souls
    • We know Loki has approved of Hilgya's adherence to his teachings


    It's not a slam dunk case for sure.
    This is my feeling, too. On balance I'm inclined to think that her plan would succeed, though I wouldn't be surprised if it failed. I give it maybe an 70% chance.
    Witch Razor Blood Sage
    (Links both lead to ToB disciplines I made!)

  19. - Top - End - #709
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the "die in any fight = honor!" conclusion is a bit too simplistic. If a dwarf is trying to slaughter an orphanage and then ultimately gets taken down by the guards while they're charging at fleeing children - or worse, one of the children grabs a kitchen knife to defend themself and gets really lucky - yeah, they've died in battle, but they were behaving pretty dishonorably up until that moment. Maybe the line isn't drawn at trees or alcohol poisoning, but I think there is indeed a line.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  20. - Top - End - #710
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RatElemental's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I think the "die in any fight = honor!" conclusion is a bit too simplistic. If a dwarf is trying to slaughter an orphanage and then ultimately gets taken down by the guards while they're charging at fleeing children - or worse, one of the children grabs a kitchen knife to defend themself and gets really lucky - yeah, they've died in battle, but they were behaving pretty dishonorably up until that moment. Maybe the line isn't drawn at trees or alcohol poisoning, but I think there is indeed a line.
    The line is probably whatever the god who would have to come down and argue on their behalf thinks it is.

    Also, bit of a tangent, but since clerics of Thor get a free drink for getting killed by clerics of Loki, I wonder if the same is true vice versa or if Loki just laughs and calls you a loser if one of Thor's clerics mercs you.

  21. - Top - End - #711
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    This is my feeling, too. On balance I'm inclined to think that her plan would succeed, though I wouldn't be surprised if it failed. I give it maybe an 70% chance.
    I think I'm similar; leaning somewhat to success. It's a low confidence leaning and it would take little to change my mind. But we have very little either way so shrug.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-14 at 12:45 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #712
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree, but it also means that their credibility is shot even when they do tell the truth, because everything they say is suspect.

    ... Yes, I have been saying that constantly - its exactly what I mean by "self-serving". Hilgya does stand to gain by lying to herself. Specifically, she thinks stands to gain the freedom to do whatever she wants without worrying about Hel. The fact that she's fooling herself and is thus also the victim has no bearing on this.

    Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work. Only the author can, as I've already described. If you want to keep going in circles where nothing you say invalidates my belief that she's wrong, we certainly can, but it seems like you have an expectation that you can find some way to convince me that her wholly unsupported notion that benefits her in the highly specific way that she needs to not be damned is objectively wrong. You cannot. Again, we read the same comic. I haven't missed anything. We just reached two different conclusions. I cannot convince you any more than you can convince me.
    I don't want to convince you, Hylgia could be perfectly wrong. My point is that she being right has more sense narratively than she being wrong.

  23. - Top - End - #713
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Seoul
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Honestly I think the "is she right/wrong" may be rooted in more "do you like Hilgya" than most people want to admit.

    I like her as a character so I'm biased towards her being right, but honestly there's enough ambiguity that it could go either way and I'm just going to just forget about it unless it actually comes up.
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Archive Of Our Own FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)

    Extended signature here.

  24. - Top - End - #714
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Or for variety, I have no strong feelings towards Hilgya and she's speaking on a topic I don't care too much about, leaving me mostly ambivalent.

    I suspect my leanings are mostly due to the story context of Thor and Loki having tricked Hel. So having Hilgya elaborate in that context sounds like the story fleshing things out more.

  25. - Top - End - #715
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    To put the sabaton on the other foot, we've seen her lie to herself about dwarven men/families/relationships, but you're making just as much of a leap assuming that applies to setting metaphysics and her eternal soul. And as noted, there are actually mechanics for the latter, so I have plenty of reason to treat them differently.
    I don't think that's a leap. She comes up with self-serving delusions about the men in her life; so she does the same with metaphysics and her eternal soul. (She would hardly be the first in that regard, I'm sure.) I find it much more plausible that someone operates from a consistent set of motives toward all areas of their life (and afterlife) than that they compartmentalize entirely different sets of motives in different aspects.

    (And I think "she must know somehow as a high level cleric in a self-aware setting" is assuming facts not in evidence.)

    Aside, I don't think Ivan and Durkon are as small stakes for Hilgya as you make them out to be, given how strongly she prizes absolute freedom in her value system, what each of them did to compromise that, and also that she killed one of them and tried to kill the other.

    Now, all this isn't to say that Hilgya's theory is flatly untrue. I don't think we can conclude either way from the evidence at hand. I'm just saying her word alone isn't reliable on the subject, because the story she's telling exactly fits a self-serving justification to do whatever she wants, something we've already seen her do in other aspects of her life.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2021-10-14 at 02:54 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #716
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Or for variety, I have no strong feelings towards Hilgya and she's speaking on a topic I don't care too much about, leaving me mostly ambivalent.

    I suspect my leanings are mostly due to the story context of Thor and Loki having tricked Hel. So having Hilgya elaborate in that context sounds like the story fleshing things out more.
    In fact it was Loki tricking Hel and Thor. One would think he was thiniking in that kind if loophole for his dwarven souls when he did that trick.

  27. - Top - End - #717
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    But then... why say anything about it? If you really believe that nothing you say will convince anyone, and nothing anyone says to you will convince you, then what's the point of saying anything?
    Well, I'm not Peelee, but I have some thoughts about this. One is, generally, sometimes laying out our thoughts helps reinforce or solidify them if their arguments are sound, or find the faults in them if they're not, whether or not we expect that to convince anyone else.

    The other is, specifically to this discussion, it seems that we have arrived at the irreducible conflict: You either believe that Hilgya's history of coming up with self-serving justifications to do whatever she wants is sufficient to cast doubt on her credibility as it relates to the loophole she's found, or you don't. The evidence of said history has been presented; why that evidence fits with her claim about the loophole has been discussed. It's really a matter of how you weigh it, and I, at least, feel like trying to convince someone they "ought" to care about something more than they do is generally more futile and less fruitful than presenting my evidence and reasoning.

    (As I've said, I do think we can't rely on her claim. There is evidence she makes up self-serving delusions to justify doing what she wants to do. There is not evidence that even high-level clerics are ipso facto experts on all of their gods' teachings or the afterlife; there is indeed evidence to the contrary. That's certainly enough for reasonable doubt in my book.)

    Also, a couple of posts I missed the first time around:

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think Rich did say Tarquin wasn't the leader, but come on. The biggest reason we know for sure he's not is because Rich said so.
    I think the general disrespect his team members show him (not constant, but enough that it's certainly there) doesn't fit someone they consider a leader. The favor system also suggests a standing of equals, whereas a leader, I'd think, would generally be someone whose judgment the other team members trusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That I can't tell you how I would feel about a hypothetical development of the story because it depends on how it is executed, what role it serves in the larger story and whatnot. I used to think Hilgya comong back to the story would be stupid but I ended up liking it a lot. I know better now.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Eh, fair enough.

    I did call that she might reappear in UD, and back then everyone tore me a new one. I had the last laugh, though.
    I was strongly skeptical Hilgya would return-- really, more than I should've been in hindsight, just as a general rule-- but that was in part because I didn't like that the most common case made was that she would want revenge on Durkon for spurning her advances, which I thought would've been hacky and even sexist. Instead, that she's the mother of Durkon's child is a much better reason for her to come back-- it gives her an important ongoing concern with Durkon-- and thus makes her return to the story more meaningful for Durkon, especially since he never knew his own father. (Even if the revenge part was still accurate.)
    Last edited by Ruck; 2021-10-14 at 04:16 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #718
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think the general disrespect his team members show him (not constant, but enough that it's certainly there) doesn't fit someone they consider a leader. The favor system also suggests a standing of equals, whereas a leader, I'd think, would generally be someone whose judgment the other team members trusted.
    Because he ISN'T the leader now, he WAS the leader of the Vector Legion when they were adventurers. Now they are just coworkers and old friends, and the way they behave fits perfectly with that. And, anyway, they are all evil persons, and for evil persons I think they show him too little disrespect.

  29. - Top - End - #719
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Because he ISN'T the leader now, he WAS the leader of the Vector Legion when they were adventurers.
    Was he?
    Now they are just coworkers and old friends, and the way they behave fits perfectly with that. And, anyway, they are all evil persons, and for evil persons I think they show him too little disrespect.
    Yeah, because evil people can't have friends or be polite.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  30. - Top - End - #720
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Because he ISN'T the leader now, he WAS the leader of the Vector Legion when they were adventurers.
    Maybe? The best evidence we have is that he came up with the shadow-empire scheme, but that's not really a whole lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Now they are just coworkers and old friends, and the way they behave fits perfectly with that.
    That's not unfair, but I'd be more apt to buy it if the level of disrespect was just at cracking jokes at his expense. Old friends still have a baseline of respect for one another, and there seemed to be quite a bit of genuine annoyance and frustration with Tarquin from, at various points, Malack, Miron, and Laurin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    And, anyway, they are all evil persons, and for evil persons I think they show him too little disrespect.
    This did make me laugh out loud.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •