OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Psyren]

Sunny can still centre-eye any spell V comes up with though.

Almost any

given this net development. I think it's a reminder that they are in a dungeon, nay a series of dungeons, that has entirely been created and filled by Serini. there is practically no way to beat her as I see it except holding her hostage in some way in order to get out of the space filled with creatures which may be more or less her allies or friends.

Therefore, reasoning with her may be the only possibility. That, or more and more monsters come out of the woodwork until the order is completely overwhelmed and end up in the same situation that the Paladins are in.

Or, maybe there is some daring against all odds escape the Order will undergo to get out of the dungeon. Of course, the odds are all for an against all odds scenario, as Elan just pointed out to me.

They are very much trying NOT to get to "the rest of the dungeon," as doing so may weaken its defenses. So far everyone has gotten lucky because Team Evil are blithering idiots and didn't think a rogue would be a good idea to bring to an epic dungeon

[Reboot]

Almost any

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

[Ezekiel]

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

[Reboot]

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

Polymorph gets suppressed by an AMF though, no? Also, I don't think it gets blocked by a creature anyway, else Haley could just have kept herself between Sunny and her bag of holding.

[Blue Dragon]

YEESSS‼‼ One of my favorite monsters ever finally show up! Keep it coming, Giant!

[Psyren]

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

Polymorph gets suppressed by an AMF though, no? Also, I don't think it gets blocked by a creature anyway, else Haley could just have kept herself between Sunny and her bag of holding.

Sorry, I forget that not everyone might be as versed with 3.5 rules minutiae this late into the comic's run.

I was actually referring to Wall of Force, which specifically persists in an antimagic field. Now that V knows Sunny is there, they can block his center eye with that spell.

[DreamCreator]

They are very much trying NOT to get to "the rest of the dungeon," as doing so may weaken its defenses. So far everyone has gotten lucky because Team Evil are blithering idiots and didn't think a rogue would be a good idea to bring to an epic dungeon

Oh because the Order are supposedly in a dungeon zone that is *not* filled with continuously regenerating creatures, unlike the spaces Team Evil has been crawling in.

I see your point, but the Order will fight to save itself, so I think my statement still stands that there may be nigh unlimited monsters that could come to aid Serini, beyond what the Order could cope with. It seems like a probable way to tell the story, given the situation as laid out in the backstory and current storyline thus far.

[Psyren]

Oh because the Order are supposedly in a dungeon zone that is *not* filled with continuously regenerating creatures, unlike the spaces Team Evil has been crawling in.

I see your point, but the Order will fight to save itself, so I think my statement still stands that there may be nigh unlimited monsters that could come to aid Serini, beyond what the Order could cope with. It seems like a probable way to tell the story, given the situation as laid out in the backstory and current storyline thus far.

Unlimited monsters in the dungeon as a whole - probably. But she specifically lured them into an enclosed area for her AMF cone gambit, so I suspect that capturing her again is the most likely outcome to this interlude.

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)

[DreamCreator]

Unlimited monsters in the dungeon as a whole - probably. But she specifically lured them into an enclosed area for her AMF cone gambit, so I suspect that capturing her again is the most likely outcome to this interlude.

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)

I would prefer for that to happen. The first part, not her accidentally blowing up the gate. I think she's actually really smart but just dealing with a strong case of I can't believe these fools are our main protagonists.

[danielxcutter]

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

[gatemansgc]

The piercer is a creature from an older edition. I believe it's a vermin. I'm unsure if there's a 3.5 conversion, but they're known for only getting to attack once and then being useless thereafter, so Haley basically ignored the (extremely weak) hit and ran after Serini.

Attempts to modernize them (e.g. Tome of Horrors in PF) made them closer to traps than actual creatures, to represent their one-and-done nature.

well not fully useless, when i was trying to look them up i saw they had a weak acidic skin if you tried to attack them barehand. but still really weak.

[Peelee]

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

If the idea is to make you, specifically, frustrated, rather than the reader in general, I assume you mean.

Because I, for one, am enjoying the comic as is.

[Ruck]

I would prefer for that to happen. The first part, not her accidentally blowing up the gate. I think she's actually really smart but just dealing with a strong case of I can't believe these fools are our main protagonists.

Well, I don't know if she even knows they're the protagonists, or thinks in that way, the self-awareness of OOTS-world in general aside. I generally agree with you, although I'd phrase it as "These fools who keep blowing up gates say they're here to protect mine? Thanks, but no thanks."

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

I mean, I didn't expect her to roll over at the first sign of her plan going wrong. The fight will take however long it needs to take.

Aside, on second read I really enjoyed Serini's weapon of choice against Belkar, taking advantage of and turning those heightened halfling senses on their head.

[hroþila]

Personally I love Serini and everything about this fight ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Potatopeelerkin]

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

[Seward]

So, what happened to the piercer?

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

[RatElemental]

well not fully useless, when i was trying to look them up i saw they had a weak acidic skin if you tried to attack them barehand. but still really weak.

They can also crawl back up the walls and do it again, eventually. Fight's probably over by then though. Usually there'd be a lot more than one, and usually they'd take advantage of a roper ambush to pick off fleeing injured targets, too.

[a_flemish_guy]

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that (also{scrubbed})

also this adds more fuel to my theory that:
1) serini thinks the order are a bunch of bumbling oafs
2) serini thinks that she's better then the order and since she lost to xykon the order stands no chance

[JonahFalcon]

Serini has a real potpourri of monsters at her command, doesn't she?

And real potpourri, too.

[a_flemish_guy]

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

honestly, that's realistic for most ambush predators, if their ambush fails or they're caught out in the open they're really vulnerable

I think the trick with piercers is that they usually fall in groups of 20 or so

what I honestly find weird is how the piercer managed to hit haley at all since I'm pretty sure you get a reflex save, maybe she rolled a 1

[Ralanr]

Belker actually tried to talk her down. I just want to point that out.

Belkar's development has by far been my favorite in the comic.

[Yendor]

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that (also {scrub the post, scrub the quote} )

Ha! I really hope that was intentional.

[Psyren]

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again

[danielxcutter]

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again

I did like that at least, yes.

[Darth Paul]

Putting myself in Serini's shoes, she had a stable situation going (Team Evil wandering from dungeon to dungeon and making no signs of progress). Now a bunch of do-gooders who haven't objectively done much good, as far as the Gates are concerned, is on the verge of cluing Team Evil in on the whole secret of the dungeon, with one ambush that has at best a 50/50 chance of success; maybe worse, since only 1 of their confrontations with Xykon ended in a win, and then they failed to close the deal. And blew up a Gate in the process. They're troublemakers who are barging into her house and rearranging the furniture.

Honestly, I can't see a player in that situation not behaving pretty much as Serini does. In her own mind, she's the PC here and the OOTS are bit players who mess things up wherever they go.

[Wraithfighter]

Putting myself in Serini's shoes, she had a stable situation going (Team Evil wandering from dungeon to dungeon and making no signs of progress). Now a bunch of do-gooders who haven't objectively done much good, as far as the Gates are concerned, is on the verge of cluing Team Evil in on the whole secret of the dungeon, with one ambush that has at best a 50/50 chance of success; maybe worse, since only 1 of their confrontations with Xykon ended in a win, and then they failed to close the deal. And blew up a Gate in the process. They're troublemakers who are barging into her house and rearranging the furniture.

Honestly, I can't see a player in that situation not behaving pretty much as Serini does. In her own mind, she's the PC here and the OOTS are bit players who mess things up wherever they go.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad. Yeah, he'll be the big head honcho for a while, but some adventurers will eventually knock him off, it won't be the end of the world or anything.

When, well, yes, it would be the end of the world. It could be the end of more than just the world, even, it could be the death of pantheons, and all the souls that have passed onto their final destinations.

I understand why she feels the way she does and believes what she does, but at the end of the day she's still wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

[merget]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm guessing you're too young to have watched M*A*S*H? (The main character was "Hawkeye" Benjamin Franklin Pierce, {scrubbed}. I watched Animaniacs too, but a song from one episode wasn't as memorable for me as a name repeated countless times in a series that ran for over a decade.)

[Liquor Box]

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

In the circumstances, that would probably have been the better option for him this time.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad.

The real cause of her flawed assumption is not a lack of information, but a poor analysis of the information she does have. Based on what she knows about Xykon, that he intends to use the Snarl to control the world (and perhaps that he's already destroyed a gate), it's pretty naive not to factor in the significant risk of Xykon releasing the Snarl.

Especially for V, as Resilient Sphere of Grasping Hand, etc. need only for Sunny to open their main eye again to be wasted slots. V is making the right call here by not doing any of that and trying to talk.

Surely, V could still cast spells with instant effect, like disintegrate.


We haven't seen Minrah for a couple of strips. Perhaps she is neutralising poison on Roy.

[Ruck]

Putting myself in Serini's shoes, she had a stable situation going (Team Evil wandering from dungeon to dungeon and making no signs of progress). Now a bunch of do-gooders who haven't objectively done much good, as far as the Gates are concerned, is on the verge of cluing Team Evil in on the whole secret of the dungeon, with one ambush that has at best a 50/50 chance of success; maybe worse, since only 1 of their confrontations with Xykon ended in a win, and then they failed to close the deal. And blew up a Gate in the process. They're troublemakers who are barging into her house and rearranging the furniture.

Honestly, I can't see a player in that situation not behaving pretty much as Serini does. In her own mind, she's the PC here and the OOTS are bit players who mess things up wherever they go.

Yep. From her perspective it's pretty reasonable to not want the Order to get involved.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad. Yeah, he'll be the big head honcho for a while, but some adventurers will eventually knock him off, it won't be the end of the world or anything.

When, well, yes, it would be the end of the world. It could be the end of more than just the world, even, it could be the death of pantheons, and all the souls that have passed onto their final destinations.

Sure, which is why I ultimately expect this to resolve with the Order informing Serini of how this actually works and getting her assistance in some way. Of course, she doesn't know that she doesn't know that, so from her perspective and what she does know, keeping the Order away from her Gate, when keeping her Gate intact is her top priority, is sound reasoning.

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that ({scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Ahahah, I didn't even catch that, and I feel like I really should have.

[Psyren]

Putting myself in Serini's shoes,

Her what now?

The real cause of her flawed assumption is not a lack of information, but a poor analysis of the information she does have. Based on what she knows about Xykon, that he intends to use the Snarl to control the world (and perhaps that he's already destroyed a gate), it's pretty naive not to factor in the significant risk of Xykon releasing the Snarl.

And even if he doesn't, the significant risk that the very adventurers she's counting on to topple him do the same. Including inadvertently with an epic battle, the very one her own dungeon is making worse by making TE stronger.

I'm not so sure. She seems to believe she can still win, and seeing as this is all taking place in Serini's Playhouse, I'm reticent to believe it will end so easily. Especially for V, as Resilient Sphere of Grasping Hand, etc. need only for Sunny to open their main eye again to be wasted slots. V is making the right call here by not doing any of that and trying to talk.

I actually want him to open his eye again. MORE BLOODFEAST!