OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

I suspect Bloodfeast is going to be the precise thing that prevents Sunny from opening their eye and starting the clownfest all over again in the first place.

Also, question - if Serini really is acting irrationally or otherwise "wrong" outside merely not knowing the Godsmoot stuff, would you guys call that bad writing? I wouldn't, not at all, and honestly I'd get that because the old lady's been through a lot. It's just that if you ask me from pure logic and rationality, her position's crap... and before you say anything, logic is important but at the same time it's a little overrated.

[King of Nowhere]

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

[danielxcutter]

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

If you mean about her getaway plan, eh not really. She's using what she has well enough. It's the other things about her that grind my gears.

[Fyraltari]

So this is still going on? With that said, if Serini is down to using air freshener as weapons, she moght be running out of tricks.

I don't see Minrah in this strip. Could she be helping her downed comrades?

I wonder if there's a way to explain actions here within the framework of the rules, or if we should just see that as an artistic interpretation.
An attack would not break the grapple (or a pin). Serini could've just escaped grapple, I guess, but getting out of a pin would require two grapple checks at least, and she's probably both weaker than Haley due to her old age, and also smaller, getting -4 to her check. She could've used escape artist skill to break the pin/grapple, but that would take at least two rounds.
One possible interpretation would be that the piercer bull rushed Haley moving her out of Serini's space, but it doesn't look drawn that way.

It is my understanding that we don't want to go there.

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

I think you have that backward. Being in the team she was in probably goes a long way to explain her attitude. That and her brush with death.

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

[danielxcutter]

So this is still going on? With that said, if Serini is down to using air freshener as weapons, she moght be running out of tricks.

I don't see Minrah in this strip. Could she be helping her downed comrades?

Hmm. I dunno if she can even cast Stone to Flesh, but she's probably strong enough to cast Neutralize Poison. Belkar and Durkon can do it, but they've got plenty of other things to cast as well.

It is my understanding that we don't want to go there.

I hear that grappling has somehow even gotten worse in 5e.

[mr.turner meme]Mearls[/mr.turner meme]

I think you have that backward. Being in the team she was in probably goes a long way to explain her attitude. That and her brush with death.

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Yeah, I think she's making terrible choices for poor reasons, it's just that the reasons for those reasons are understandable.

[georgie_leech]

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Yeah, I think she's making terrible choices for poor reasons, it's just that the reasons for those reasons are understandable.

Whether her lack of trust in the OotS is itself justified, I really have to object to characterizing needing to actually trust your would-be allies for them to be allies as a bad take. Just because someone says they're on your side does not mean they are on your side.

[Fyraltari]

Whether her lack of trust in the OotS is itself justified, I really have to object to characterizing needing to actually trust your would-be allies for them to be allies as a bad take. Just because someone says they're on your side does not mean they are on your side.

"I decide who's on my side" isn't the same as a simple "I don't trust you", though.

[Hurkyl]

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

It depends on what you mean by side. Coarsely speaking, some people define sides by your enemies, and some people define sides by your allies and comrades.

I think the latter meaning makes more sense, because of the connotation of phrases like "on the same side". And with the latter meaning, well, the relevant maxim is that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend: they're just my enemy's enemy.

[Vikenlugaid]

Well Serini's plucky at least, but I wonder how long it's going to take the Order to lose patience with a beaten-but-not-willing-to-admit-it old rogue.

Tecnically in the next round Sunny can go eyestalk barrage again, or AMF, and we know there is at least one monster left. While the order still have two members down, and we dont know how many magic things Serini has.

[Vikenlugaid]

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)

If she did that, she would be then half dumb than the order and as dumb as the paladins or Redcloak. Xykon become the smartest as the universe is destroyed both phisically and logically.

[Vikenlugaid]

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

Speak for yourself, I am a reader loving her really hard.

[a_flemish_guy]

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

and remember, she was the reasonable one!

[a_flemish_guy]

I'm guessing you're too young to have watched M*A*S*H? (The main character was "Hawkeye" Benjamin Franklin Pierce, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. I watched Animaniacs too, but a song from one episode wasn't as memorable for me as a name repeated countless times in a series that ran for over a decade.)

yeah, early 30's + M*A*S*H wasn't really a thing here, but that does sounds like a better reference

[gerryq]

Hmm, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that Serini has even more tricks up her sleeve, but I really thought we were heading into the denouement of this skirmish. (Which, maybe we still are; it's not like I see Serini winning it, in the end.)

I'd hazard a guess that we still are. Serini shows that she is resourceful and never gives up; the Order point out that they have demonstrated the same.

[Ruck]

Also, question - if Serini really is acting irrationally or otherwise "wrong" outside merely not knowing the Godsmoot stuff, would you guys call that bad writing? I wouldn't, not at all, and honestly I'd get that because the old lady's been through a lot. It's just that if you ask me from pure logic and rationality, her position's crap... and before you say anything, logic is important but at the same time it's a little overrated.

Logic is really a tool, something we use to achieve a result; it doesn't define our goals or our values or our passions, to say nothing of our starting premises or assumptions. (Aside, one look around the internet should readily confirm how many people who define themselves as logical and rational just really aren't aware of their own biases or the assumptions they make in their premises.)

Serini's goal is to protect the gate. A group of people who say they want to help but have a history of destroying gates show up. It is rational to conclude that achieving the goal of protecting the gate requires removing them from the area.

It may be the wrong conclusion, but it was arrived at through a fairly sound reasoning process with the information available.

I'm just not sure what revealing this process to have actually been irrational would improve.

I'd hazard a guess that we still are. Serini shows that she is resourceful and never gives up; the Order point out that they have demonstrated the same.

Solid observation.

[Peelee]

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again

I must have missed that. I saw V saying she should have picked up the call, and then effectively "no, u", but I certainly did not see a verbal smackdown of any sort, eloquent or otherwise.

Surely, V could still cast spells with instant effect, like disintegrate.

Yes, but put me in camp "V won't try to disintegrate Serini".

I actually want him to open his eye again. MORE BLOODFEAST!

Oh, same. But still, V is doing the best thing right now by trying to talk to her instead of slinging spells.

[kingcheesepants]

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

[Liquor Box]

Whether her lack of trust in the OotS is itself justified, I really have to object to characterizing needing to actually trust your would-be allies for them to be allies as a bad take. Just because someone says they're on your side does not mean they are on your side.

You might need to trust someone for them to be your ally. You don't need to trust them to simply refrain from attacking them.

If she did that, she would be then half dumb than the order and as dumb as the paladins or Redcloak. Xykon become the smartest as the universe is destroyed both phisically and logically.

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.

Yes, but put me in camp "V won't try to disintegrate Serini".

Well, that would mean V, a neutral character, showing more restraint that someone willing to petrify a character then let her drop and shatter.

But if not disintegrate, V has a host of disabling type spells that could be cast on Serini or Sunny which have instant effect so wont be bothered by the anti-magic ray. Crushing Despair for example, is one of the spell Sunny cast on the Order.

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

Good point. People suggested she shouldn't answer their sending because even letting them know she was alive was a disadvantage. But they know that now. She could try to mine them for information, with nothing to lose. Even if she learns no new information, she would be in a better position to attack them again, or if she wanted to escape they'd probably just let her go.

[Peelee]

Well, that would mean V, a neutral character, showing more restraint that someone willing to petrify a character then let her drop and shatter.

If you are trying to imply that single actions can be used to roughly determine alignment, then V, a neutral character, has committed genocide. So I'm going to wait for a bit longer before I make any judgment calls on Serini's alignment. After all, she has showed restraint in not attempting genocide, so far as we know.

But if not disintegrate, V has a host of disabling type spells that could be cast on Serini or Sunny which have instant effect so wont be bothered by the anti-magic ray. Crushing Despair for example, is one of the spell Sunny cast on the Order.

My point is right now both V and Sunny are silent on the magic spewing front, which is ideal for ceasing hostilities and starting communication. If they start blasting, then Sunny will likely move to protect, and the whole thing starts all over again. They want to talk to Serini, but she is resistant to it because she has zero trust in them. They need to prove their value, and that's not going to happen by slinging around Disintegrates.

[JonahFalcon]

Lien: So... this is taking a while.
O-Chul: Hm? Oh, I've already broken out of my manacles. Come on, let's see what is going on.

EDIT:

By the way, this scuffle has been going on for what, 5 minutes? For the reader, it's been months, but remember that everything is going on fast so it isn't like Serini has been given months to consider what's going on. It's still the heat of the moment.

[Shining Wrath]

The odds that the takedown of Serini occurs exactly under Franklin are pretty close to zero.
Since Minrah is offscreen I assume she's helping Roy and Durkon.
Potpourri as the anti-Belkar weapon is pretty funny.

[Liquor Box]

If you are trying to imply that single actions can be used to roughly determine alignment, then V, a neutral character, has committed genocide. So I'm going to wait for a bit longer before I make any judgment calls on Serini's alignment. After all, she has showed restraint in not attempting genocide, so far as we know.

Oh, I thought I'd seen you say you thought she was not evil. Fair enough if you want to withhold judgment.

The implication was that if V was willing to refrain from being potentially lethal in this fight as a neutral character, it may suggest that being willing to use lethal force in this fight might be south of that, expecially if you were the attacker. I agree though that one act wouldn't define either of them.

My point is right now both V and Sunny are silent on the magic spewing front, which is ideal for ceasing hostilities and starting communication. If they start blasting, then Sunny will likely move to protect, and the whole thing starts all over again. They want to talk to Serini, but she is resistant to it because she has zero trust in them. They need to prove their value, and that's not going to happen by slinging around Disintegrates.

Well going by her "you got beat by an old lady so your no chance against Xykon", defeating her would prove their value.

Yes, it may be that the Order still sees Serini as a potential ally rather than an obstacle (how she appears to see them) despite her saying s they were not on the same side. If so, a disabling spell would allow them to talk to her while holding the advantages - perhaps a stick to prod her with if she says things they don't like.

The odds that the takedown of Serini occurs exactly under Franklin are pretty close to zero.

Could Franklin have moved into position in the round that Serini was restrained?

As someone else pointed out, Serini probably rolled very luckily to break the pin though.

[a_flemish_guy]

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

[Vikenlugaid]

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

But talkint how? While they have her grappled? Who would want to talk like that when she can avoid that situation?

[Peelee]

Well going by her "you got beat by an old lady so your no chance against Xykon", defeating her would prove their value.

Yes, it may be that the Order still sees Serini as a potential ally rather than an obstacle (how she appears to see them) despite her saying s they were not on the same side. If so, a disabling spell would allow them to talk to her while holding the advantages - perhaps a stick to prod her with if she says things they don't like.

Your first assertion does not follow. If I say, "you can't ride a horse, you can't even sbalance while sitting on a chair!", and you proceed to sit on a chair fine, then you have proven nothing at all in regards to riding a horse. You have simply overcome a low hurdle.

Further, the Order wants to help Serini, and also wants Serini to help them. Serini, meanwhile, did not want to help the paladins and did not believe the paladins were even capable of helping her. Your attempt at role reversal there falls apart immediately.

[Ezekiel]

Sorry, I forget that not everyone might be as versed with 3.5 rules minutiae this late into the comic's run.

I was actually referring to Wall of Force, which specifically persists in an antimagic field. Now that V knows Sunny is there, they can block his center eye with that spell.

So...Wall of Force persists but Forcecage does not?

[a_flemish_guy]

Oh, I thought I'd seen you say you thought she was not evil. Fair enough if you want to withhold judgment.

The implication was that if V was willing to refrain from being potentially lethal in this fight as a neutral character, it may suggest that being willing to use lethal force in this fight might be south of that, expecially if you were the attacker. I agree though that one act wouldn't define either of them.

you don't have to be neutral if you recognise that it's better to attempt to restrain a character who could be a boon to you (hell, I'd argue that even evil characters can recognise this)
also plenty of good order characters have used lethal force in the past

furthermore using potentially lethal force to neutralise a party with superior members when you think that otherwise they're going to destroy the world doesn't make one evil or even non-good (although I do think chaotic neutral is likely)

short: the order think serini can be of use to them , serini doesn't think so of the order thus the difference in tactics, not allignment per se

[Liquor Box]

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

You're right, and that's why she's being a bit silly. Her goal is to protect the gate, and from what she knows the Order might have information to help her do that. They may not, but there's no downside to talking.

Your first assertion does not follow. If I say, "you can't ride a horse, you can't even sbalance while sitting on a chair!", and you proceed to sit on a chair fine, then you have proven nothing at all in regards to riding a horse. You have simply overcome a low hurdle.

True, it doesn't prove they can beat Xykon. But it does prove that her initial estimate of them was too low (presumably she thought she might win or she wouldn't have spring this ambush), so it might make her re-evaluate whether they might be powerful enough. Especially if she previously didn't know much about them.

Further, the Order wants to help Serini, and also wants Serini to help them. Serini, meanwhile, did not want to help the paladins and did not believe the paladins were even capable of helping her. Your attempt at role reversal there falls apart immediately.

Where do you get that they want to help her or they want her help? All we know is that they wanted to talk to her, a rational step for anyone who may be able to get more information from another party.

But even if they did want to work with her, they may not now.

If they still want to work with her, I don't see how defeating her will make her receptiveness work (as noted above, given her comment to the paladins, showing their power might make her more receptive). The possibility of a cordial introduction is gone, they are fighting, so its hard to see how winning that fight would detract from any of their goals.

[Vikenlugaid]

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.

Well that's a stretch.
If the paladins and the order werent here, Serini wouldn't had atacked them.
If shapphire guard wouldn't had massacre Redcloaks village, he would had never met Xykon, and the later would have died long ago.
If Roy didn't want to do some sidequest, V wouldn't had killed a teenager dragon, and therefore he/she wouldn't had commited genocide later.

...

What a way to avoid responsabilities...

[warmachine]

Piercers are INT 1 mollusks, making them too stupid to be trained, so Franklin must be awakened. Toormuck must have a whole army of awakened animals.