OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

Okay, that was kind of cool, but I guess now we know that Serini can pull a functionally unlimited amount of creature allies out of her proverbial behind to prolong the fight as long as story dictates, so I'm guessing we still have a few months to go before any productive dialogue actually takes place between her and the Order, if at all given her determination to be as unreasonable as possible.

This is starting to feel like the whole deal with the Godsmoot and Hel's lengthy conga-line of nesting backup plans.

I mean, I didn't expect her to roll over at the first sign of her plan going wrong. The fight will take however long it needs to take.

What Ruck said. This strip was put in to show that Serini is stubborn and will keep fighting even if she is presented with reasons to stop. Showing her continuing to run away as they banter back and forth would get the same talking bits out there, but allow the scene to remain dynamic and show us how set in her ways Serini has become. I wouldn't really say I prefer that over a "talking heads" strip one way or another, but I'm not upset about either choice.

The pacing might be frustrating right now when we're reading the comics strip by strip, but in book form this entire fight is going to rocket past.

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

Agreed. Really like his development on display here!

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Speaking as someone who has DMed loads of NPCs that my PCs immediately try to adopt – with or without their consent – "I decide who's on my side" is much more relatable if you're playing a character who doesn't respect the PCs, even if their goals are aligned.

[danielxcutter]

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her?

[drazen]

Serini sucks, and I'm not so sure she wasn't part of the Scribblers' initial quarrel problems with the attitude she shows here.

Hard to say if she was always this way or if getting attacked, almost killed, and permanently disfigured made her this way. The personality doesn't remotely match what we saw in the diary excerpts.

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons. Although I suppose the party member best at talking things out has been unconscious since the start of the current fight.

[Hurkyl]

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons.

Disagree hard; the strip usually does a good job of subverting that trope and gives antagonists less cartoonish motivations for being in opposition, and none of those three strike me as being cartoonish.

[Wraithfighter]

I don't think that the OOTS can win Serini over by proving they have a good chance of beating Xykon.

For one, they'd need to be able to prove that to a neutral party. And.... haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha, nooooooo. They're still in the "plucky underdogs" territory of things, they might be able to win in an objectively strategic sense if they take the right fight in the right way, but that's about it. It's going to take Story Magic to make the victory happen, which is a good thing, because this isn't a D&D campaign, this is a work of fiction with a D&D setting, victory merely needs to be possible given the visible events not likely.

But for two, and more importantly, Serini's a hero who went on a quest that involved the fate of worlds, she's one of the few people who know most of the truth about the nature of the planet, she's been through stuff and done stuff that just about no one else will ever even understand...

...and Xykon nearly killed her in a Surprise Round.

And has killed two of her former party members, who were both epic-ly powerful (literally, in fact!).

The only way that that the OOTS is going to get her on their side is to get her to see that letting Xykon win is not an option. That Xykon winning is the same as blowing the gate up, except maybe worse. At that point, a small chance of victory becomes preferable to none, and even Serini's abject terror of the lich won't be so much of an issue.

[Ionathus]

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her?

Yeah, in this instance I think she's being too stubborn, though I don't know if you're making a bigger point. I chose that description to be fairly neutral, because I was moreso arguing about how "Serini uses the Piercer to escape and keep fighting/resisting" is a useful story beat, rather than a pointless extension of a scene as TheNecronomicon seemed to be saying.

Hard to say if she was always this way or if getting attacked, almost killed, and permanently disfigured made her this way. The personality doesn't remotely match what we saw in the diary excerpts.

My money's on that. The loss of her companion Kraagor (which seemed to hit Serini the hardest), the subsequent dissolution of the Scribble, 60+ years of trying to move on, followed by getting ambushed and disfigured, then watching Xykon raise hell on the remaining gates using her own stolen journal, and knowing that her one-time friends are being wiped out one by one (either by age or Xykon)...this is all a lot to handle, and I wouldn't blame even the happy-go-luckiest hobbit halfling for becoming a lot more cynical, arrogant, and stubborn.

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons. Although I suppose the party member best at talking things out has been unconscious since the start of the current fight.

Eh, I really don't see how Serini is being stupid or petty. A real condescending know-it-all jerk, sure. But comparing Andi's childish desire to captain a single airship doesn't really correspond to Serini's chosen tactics for defending the final Pillar of Reality that her own team constructed as their life's work. I can't think of a less petty reason than "if I don't interfere, this existence will be permanently erased."

[Dion]

Franklin Piercer?

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

Franklin Piercer?

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No, this is Patrick.

[Seward]

what I honestly find weird is how the piercer managed to hit haley at all since I'm pretty sure you get a reflex save, maybe she rolled a 1

Traditionally it is an attack vs AC.

Although they're low level monsters and she's got uncanny dodge to ignore surprise so it got pretty lucky.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia.

No, and it's rather ageist to make that assumption. (Not sure how many people close to you have suffered from that)

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D.

Now and again, yes, but the party was usually more careful in exploring the dungeon beyond "kick in the door" if it expected to survive. Paranoia was a virtue.

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia.

Kind of; the Lurker Above certainly ranked right up there as a meta monster.

Ah right. I forgot about ropers, I don't think I've ever met one.

A fine and dangerous monster. I still use them in 5e.

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her?

Stubborn and inflexible is good for some things, and not so much for others. Her self confidence, having been an Epic Level PC in a party that saved the world from a cosmic horror, is warranted but it doesn't mean that she can't consider another perspective. At the moment, she won't, based on her ultimate goal.

Franklin Piercer?

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Sure, why not? Rich is from the US, the joke works.

[Seward]

So on re-reading....

V is going to keep the potpourri as a Belkar repellent. Thats what V's last 2 sentences on final panel are about.

And possibly the title of the strip "sales boom" of poutpourri to keep Belkar away from random citizens.

[Hurkyl]

Traditionally it is an attack vs AC.

Although they're low level monsters and she's got uncanny dodge to ignore surprise so it got pretty lucky.

Uncanny dodge is irrelevant since she's in a grapple, AFAICT.

[Precure]

What are the chances that that piercer was coincidently standing over Haley? I bet that room is full with them.

[drazen]

Yeah, in this instance I think she's being too stubborn, though I don't know if you're making a bigger point. I chose that description to be fairly neutral, because I was moreso arguing about how "Serini uses the Piercer to escape and keep fighting/resisting" is a useful story beat, rather than a pointless extension of a scene as TheNecronomicon seemed to be saying.



My money's on that. The loss of her companion Kraagor (which seemed to hit Serini the hardest), the subsequent dissolution of the Scribble, 60+ years of trying to move on, followed by getting ambushed and disfigured, then watching Xykon raise hell on the remaining gates using her own stolen journal, and knowing that her one-time friends are being wiped out one by one (either by age or Xykon)...this is all a lot to handle, and I wouldn't blame even the happy-go-luckiest hobbit halfling for becoming a lot more cynical, arrogant, and stubborn.



Eh, I really don't see how Serini is being stupid or petty. A real condescending know-it-all jerk, sure. But comparing Andi's childish desire to captain a single airship doesn't really correspond to Serini's chosen tactics for defending the final Pillar of Reality that her own team constructed as their life's work. I can't think of a less petty reason than "if I don't interfere, this existence will be permanently erased."

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

Elan or Belkar, sure, they ain't that bright. Roy was an idiot for about a week after his best friend died and was vampirized. But V, Haley, and Durkon are plenty intelligent in their own right, and O-Chul and Minrah aren't dumb, either. Lien isn't stupid either, but she probably is more brash than most of the rest of the allies.

[Seward]

Uncanny dodge is irrelevant since she's in a grapple, AFAICT.

good point. Haley's AC sans dex bonus probably isn't that great, especially given how under-geared the Order seems to be for their level.

[Dion]

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff.

[Skull the Troll]

Disagree hard; the strip usually does a good job of subverting that trope and gives antagonists less cartoonish motivations for being in opposition, and none of those three strike me as being cartoonish.

Drazen didnt say cartoonish, he said stupid and petty. I think I would definitely categorized their motivations that way. Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case)

[hungrycrow]

Drazen didnt say cartoonish, he said stupid and petty. I think I would definitely categorized their motivations that way. Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case)

I'm not sure that's her deal, she seemed to have a positive relationship with Girard after the breakup. She also shows an equal amount of ire towards V as she does Haley.

[Ionathus]

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

I was under the mistaken belief that when you said she was "[making] everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons" you were, in fact, actually talking about her reasons for her behavior, and not the quality of the insults she chooses to sling. If you want to get offended on V's behalf for somebody calling them childish names, knock yourself out. It's just not pertinent to your original point at all.

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup.

[citation needed]

[RatElemental]

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

Not entirely true, they can choose an opportune moment to fall, and also aim better, and coordinate with other piercers, and collaborate with ropers. In 5e they're even noted as being the juvenile form of ropers.

[Ruck]

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...

The coordinates were also in code. Xykon was only able to crack the code because he already knew where Lirian's Gate was, so he reverse-engineered the location of the others.

I can't speak for everyone in the pro-Serini camp (well, not pro-Serini per se, but you know. The camp opposite yours) but I don't believe I have never once expressed the idea that she's being perfectly unbiased and logical and that her perspective wasn't informed by her trauma and baggage. If I have, I apologize, because I did not properly express my point if so. I firmly believe that--I don't think she would be nearly as jaded or cynical as she is if that weren't the case (given what little we've seen of her pre-Kraagor and pre-trollification).

But one's perspective being informed by those things doesn't make them wrong or bad or deserving of a callout by the narrative. I don't think she arrived at her conclusions through purely rational thought (then again, I don't believe any being has ever arrived at a conclusion through purely rational thought.) But I still think her perspective is still defensible from her point of view, and I think a lot of the arguments people have made attempting to refute that have been unfair or flawed in themselves.

I was going to write a reply to daniel, but this is close enough to my thoughts that I don't really need to add more.

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help.

That's not it at all. She doesn't want to accept help from these humans (and dwarves, and elf, and halfling) because they have a track record of destroying the thing she's trying to preserve.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help.

I don't want to sound racist, but every time something's one wrong in my life, it's been one of those damned human's fault.

Usually me.

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

I guess it at least explains why the stalactite, after millions of years forming, it falls the second you walk under it.

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff.

My take was, I acknowledge there's a lot of stuff in your head, but nothing that makes you worth talking to.

[BloodSquirrel]

A new strip always has a way of putting the positions people dug their heels into while arguing about the last strip into perspective.

Serini's really out of excuses now. You can't claim that talking to the order would give away anything important at this point, and she's now prolonging a conflict that she has a clear disadvantage in when her entire supposed "justification" for her actions was keeping conflict away from the gate. Meanwhile, her grade-school level retort to V's reasonable statement really doesn't bode well for anyone who was thinking that this was going to lead to the Order being put in their place by Serini's biting commentary on their methods.

[KorvinStarmast]

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff.

And brains look a little bit like a bunch of noodles compressed inside that hollow part of the skull.

Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case)

Kraagor was a dwarf, but him being dead renders that point moot, beyond him being dead getting all of the humans to disagree so violently.

The coordinates were also in code. Xykon was only able to crack the code because he already knew where Lirian's Gate was, so he reverse-engineered the location of the others.

Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material?

[hamishspence]

Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material?

Both - the main comic brings up the deciphering of the code:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

and SoD has Xykon's speech to Redcloak that explains how he deciphered the code - he started with the location of Lirian's gate, which had already been destroyed at that point - and now, they are setting off for Dorukan's.

[Ionathus]

Meanwhile, her grade-school level retort to V's reasonable statement really doesn't bode well for anyone who was thinking that this was going to lead to the Order being put in their place by Serini's biting commentary on their methods.

That position is a thing that you made up in your own head (I'm certain there's a word for that...?): if any commenters claimed that Serini was going to "put the Order in their place" with her "biting commentary," they were so few and far between as to be functionally nonexistent.

There is no scenario where Serini comes out of this with the logical and moral high ground. At best, she can criticize them for destroying Gates 2-4, but that argument has no legs given the Godsmoot and Thor info about what happens if Redcloak gets access to a gate.

You might be thinking of the position that Serini will not herself be "put in her place" with "biting commentary." That one tends to have more prevalence. But even people who hold some version of that position (like myself) still acknowledge that Serini's not going to "win" any arguments here. She's wrong, and she'll be proven wrong. Full stop. Barring new information that doesn't exist in the narrative yet (gotta hedge my bets!).

We're just arguing about the degree of that wrongness, and whether or not she will be confirmed as a big stinky doodoo head who should've behaved differently with the info she already had.

I don't want to sound racist, but every time something's gone wrong in my life, it's been one of those damned human's fault.

Usually me.

Hey yeah, wait just a goshdarn minute, I think you're on to something here!

Hey everybody! It's all Quizatzhaderac's fault!

[Fyraltari]

Kraagor was a dwarf, but him being dead renders that point moot, beyond him being dead getting all of the humans to disagree so violently.

And Lirian was an elf.

Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material?

SoD.

[BloodSquirrel]

That position is a thing that you made up in your own head (I'm certain there's a word for that...?): if any commenters claimed that Serini was going to "put the Order in their place" with her "biting commentary," they were so few and far between as to be functionally nonexistent.

There is no scenario where Serini comes out of this with the logical and moral high ground. At best, she can criticize them for destroying Gates 2-4, but that argument has no legs given the Godsmoot and Thor info about what happens if Redcloak gets access to a gate.

You might be thinking of the position that Serini will not herself be "put in her place" with "biting commentary." That one tends to have more prevalence. But even people who hold some version of that position (like myself) still acknowledge that Serini's not going to "win" any arguments here. She's wrong, and she'll be proven wrong. Full stop. Barring new information that doesn't exist in the narrative yet (gotta hedge my bets!).

We're just arguing about the degree of that wrongness, and whether or not she will be confirmed as a big stinky doodoo head who should've behaved differently with the info she already had.

This is not even a remotely accurate description of the previous discussion thread. If you want to distance yourself from the comments made there, then fine, but the pro-Serini camp was no where even close to as moderate as you are claiming they were.

[pendell]

Bravo! I hope everyone is taking notes because this is how you conduct a D&D ambush. Absolutely textbook on Serini's part!

She:
-- Gathered intelligence on the intruders.
-- Made a plan.
-- Selected the spot for the ambush.
-- Had a retreat planned just in case the encounter went wrong.

Right now we're seeing the "break contact, live to fight again some other day" contingency plan. I suspect, as at least one person mentioned above, that there's more than one such creature in the roof of the cave. Falling damage is nothing to high-level adventurers, but things falling from the ceiling can nonetheless cause a distraction at a crucial moment, allowing Serini to make her getaway.

That is , I hope she's breaking contact to prepare another ambush later because otherwise I'd have to significantly revise my opinion of her tactical ability downward. She's a rogue. It's a class that relies on stealth, secrecy, first-strike advantage, and flanking. All of those elements are now lost. The enemy party is rapidly getting on its feet, her ally is wounded, the party is now spread out. When I run this through my own decision matrix, the answer that comes out is "the odds are against Serini, time to withdraw."

On the other side of the coin, it is absolutely in the Order's best interest to catch and subdue her now if at all possible. She's a rogue. Her class isn't designed to beat down opponents with big sticks in standup combat nor is she designed to blow stuff up with her mind or laugh at the laws of physics. She is at her best laying a prepared ambush for them in the dungeon she designed with the aid of all her friends. She is at her worst in a meeting engagement where she has no time to prepare and the enemy is fully alerted. So the Order's best chance is if they can capitalize on their initial success to grab her now. Otherwise they'll get ambushed again, with potentially worse results.

I would say the Order gets more out of this fight than Serini does, if it ends now. They've learned a lot about her and her capabilities while, in exchange, they have lost few resources that can't be recovered by a night's sleep. But we're still no closer to winning her cooperation. She doesn't respect them. She has no trust in their ability to win against Xykon and absolute confidence that their blundering will make things worse. Also, this may not be the first adventuring party she has encountered in this dungeon. She may have had to deal with many adventuring parties and feels towards them the way anyone would feel to random sales cold calls. Sure, they believe they're the good guys and they are the only possible solution to the story's problems, but how often has Serini met people like that? She was part of such a group, once.

I'm not sure what it would take to pierce her wall of cynicism and bad experience, to re-kindle the idealism that would lead her to fight alongside the Order rather than against them. But that is what has to happen if she's not going to be a permanent antagonist. Perhaps O-chul can help some how? If anyone's read his story, he's quite the peacemaker.

Here's the deal I would offer Serini, if I were the Order: Help us to stop Xykon. Sure, him winning is better than destroying the world, but isn't option #3, where Xykon gets smashed into bony pieces, a better outcome? In exchange, we promise not to destroy the gate even if Xykon takes it. If we lose, you're no worse off than you were. If we win ... then we all sit down for a celebratory slap-up meal prepared by Chef Belkar and spiced with Aunt Serini's Amnesia special. We go to sleep and wake up a thousand miles away with no memory of what happened or how we got there, but we have incontrovertible proof ( Xykon's Crown, the Scarlet Mantle) showing us that we've completed our quest and can go home. That way her secret is safe, Xykon is vanquished, the world is saved.

All the same I can't help feeling the last gate will be destroyed somehow. The tragedy of the Scribble was that they could not work together , and so each defended their gate as they saw best, refusing to cooperate with any others. Each chose a particular philosophy and way to defend their chosen gate. Each was destroyed by the shortcomings of that same philosophy.

Spoiler: sod

Show

1) Lirian's gate, guarded by nature, was destroyed by an unnatural abomination, namely Xykon, who was immune to most natural effects and diseases. Also by a fire, since the trees holding the gate were not prepared to stand around and be burned when Redcloak's errant Flame Strike got too close.

2) Dorukan relied on his magic, puzzles, and carefully prepared defenses. He was defeated when he was drawn out of his carefully prepared dungeon when Xykon flaunted Lirian's corpse in front of him. Then he got into a fight with a sorcerer who didn't need special tactics or abilities, he just kept zapping Dorukon over and over with energy drain until he was dead. Xykon's not afraid to oppose subtlety with brute force.

3) Soon relied on the honor of a paladin. The gate was destroyed by a walking, talking collection of all the ways a paladin can be played wrongly.

4) Girard refused to trust anyone but his own family. As a result, because he didn't have any defenses EXCEPT his own family, the gate was left defenseless when an errant familicide killed them all.

... Come to think of it, for all their time together as an adventuring party the Scribblers don't really seem to like each other very much.

If that pattern follows, how will Serini's gate be destroyed? Well, we can't do the "don't trust anyone" schtick again because we've already done that with Girard. If I had to guess, it's her reliance on monsters and refusal to trust other PCs that will be her downfall. Intelligent monsters ARE people in this world, but there may be plenty of dumb animal type monsters who might wind up rampaging and destroying the gate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemarc]

Assuming "back in the day" means Gygaxian, the game had very different assumptions back then. Because many aspects of your character were completely randomized, bad stat arrays were common and death was expected. You essentially had a whole lot of people adventuring who had no business adventuring. Getting attached to your character wasn't as prevalent as it is now, and the expectation was to have several backups ready to go for when your current one carked it.

I meant the 70s. I mostly play 1E but the mores might have changed a bit, we expect to get wiped from time to time and keep a couple backups, but we also expect after a wipe for the DM to be able to point at what we did wrong and laugh in our face.

Kind of; the Lurker Above certainly ranked right up there as a meta monster.

The Lurker is nasty but the Trapper is just sadism. I have solemnly limited myself to no more than one per campaign and only near the very bottom of very large dungeons.