OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[elecampane]

I'm apprehensive to join the Serini debate, but I guess I can't help myself

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.

Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads people were agreeing with Serini's logic about how the Order of the Stick is to blame for the destruction of previous gates.
I mean, if anything, the order of the Scribble is more to blame here:
Lirian was overconfident and couldn't resist the desire to push the appreciation of the Nature onto the evildoers which brought about her failure and demise;
Dorukan had installed the self-destruct rune into his own gate (per oots0278 because he thought destroying one gate is better than it falling into the wrong hands, and we now now he was right);
Soon's own defenses (i.e. the Sapphire Guard, which Mika was a product of) destroyed Soon's gate;
Girard's defenses are difficult to theorize about as the comic doesn't actually cover them, but I doubt his illusions would've worked well against Redcloak's True Seeing and Xykon's Dispel Magic, and also his strategy of "Do not trust and do not hire anyone outside close family" backfired on him, anyone else would be more or less ok in the same situation (but that can't really be blamed on him, no one expects Familicide)
And finally Serini provided Xykon with the info on all the Gates locations. And no, Diary wasn't most secure with her, it would me most secure destroyed, there's no excuse carrying such an important information with you when everyone (you included) decided it should be destroyed. And "But it's in code!" is a really ****ty excuse in a world where spells such as "Comprehend languages", "Divination", and "Contact other plane" exist.

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

And giving them a big helping of an amnesia soup by force is obviously not working for her at the moment. If she would at least try to talk to them to lull them into a false sense of security with plans to later sneak poison into their food, that would at least seem reasonable. This feels like a chess player who obviously lost but insists on making all the moves necessary to checkmate them, just wasting everyone's time.

A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.

It's easy to draw a false equivalence and then dismantle the strawman, but the order have killed Xykon once, and stole his phylactery at another confrontation, it's the Serini refusing to examine the evidence right in front of her that leads her to not trusting the evidence.

Int 1 can learn three tricks actually; "Fall when I say 'Franklin'" is simple enough to be one.

Except when the Piercer misses, it is often killed by the fall, so might be a bit hard to train that. Perhaps possible with a feather fall, but that might mess up Piercer's aim

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

I mean, in real life there's a lot of totally different animals disguising themselves as similar rocks, leaves, and bark

What are the chances that that piercer was coincidently standing over Haley? I bet that room is full with them.

I thought so too, and in fact when Serini called its name, she might've been choosing which Piercer has to fall. Then again, Piercers have a speed of 5 feet, and could slowly adjust their position on the ceiling

good point. Haley's AC sans dex bonus probably isn't that great, especially given how under-geared the Order seems to be for their level.

I mean, she did buy an armor for 16,000gp in oots0675 which is an exact price of +4 armor, so even without dex her AC should be at least 16

[Hurkyl]

I'm not sure what it would take to pierce her wall of cynicism and bad experience, to re-kindle the idealism that would lead her to fight alongside the Order rather than against them. But that is what has to happen if she's not going to be a permanent antagonist. Perhaps O-chul can help some how? If anyone's read his story, he's quite the peacemaker.

If I respected the writing less, my bet would be firmly on Team Evil interrupting their conflict forcing an impromptu team-up.

If I respected the writing even less than that, my bet would be on the party soundly defeating Serini and her spontaneously converting to their way of thinking. With even less respect, her capitulation would be phrased something like respecting their strength.

That said, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to go in those directions; I expect that if the Giant plans the story to go in those directions it will be well enough written. But even then I expect the Giant to have more to say on the philosophical conflict rather than just brushing it aside with a tropey resolution.

[Psyren]

Here's the deal I would offer Serini, if I were the Order: Help us to stop Xykon. Sure, him winning is better than destroying the world, but isn't option #3, where Xykon gets smashed into bony pieces, a better outcome?

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway. Even Redcloak ultimately believed that part, they just lost him on the "and the Dark One won't be around to help make the next one better for goblins, if there even are goblins," bit. They just have to get her to sit still and shut up long enough to listen.

Except when the Piercer misses, it is often killed by the fall, so might be a bit hard to train that. Perhaps possible with a feather fall, but that might mess up Piercer's aim

Just use a flumph some pillows or impact foam.

I meant the 70s. I mostly play 1E but the mores might have changed a bit, we expect to get wiped from time to time and keep a couple backups, but we also expect after a wipe for the DM to be able to point at what we did wrong and laugh in our face.

Then yep.

[Ionathus]

This is not even a remotely accurate description of the previous discussion thread. If you want to distance yourself from the comments made there, then fine, but the pro-Serini camp was no where even close to as moderate as you are claiming they were.

I feel like I've been pretty plugged into the Serini debate since her first appearance in this book, so this assertion doesn't track for me. I'd welcome prominent examples of what you're talking about, though I recognize that's usually a thankless job in forum arguments.

That is , I hope she's breaking contact to prepare another ambush later because otherwise I'd have to significantly revise my opinion of her tactical ability downward. She's a rogue. It's a class that relies on stealth, secrecy, first-strike advantage, and flanking. All of those elements are now lost. The enemy party is rapidly getting on its feet, her ally is wounded, the party is now spread out. When I run this through my own decision matrix, the answer that comes out is "the odds are against Serini, time to withdraw."

Yeah, I think she's gonna run too. Wondering how Sunny will get out of the top of this cylinder once Mama Toormuck is gone -- do you think she has an escape hatch up there somewhere?

3) Soon relied on the honor of a paladin. The gate was destroyed by a walking, talking collection of all the ways a paladin can be played wrongly.

4) Girard refused to trust anyone but his own family. As a result, because he didn't have any defenses EXCEPT his own family, the gate was left defenseless when an errant familicide killed them all.

Fair (and funny) point on #3, but I can't fault the Draketooths for not specifically predicting "Genocide, The Spell" as a potential weakness in their defenses. Illusions being weak to undead/truesight might be a more practical oversight to criticize.

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway.

Fitting that you brought up Redcloak, because I wouldn't be surprised if Serini offers a version of the same response: "According to a random dwarf who I have no reason to believe." That is, until they kick her proverbial heinie and make her listen, which is increasingly looking like the necessary outcome.

[Baelzar]

Well Serini's plucky at least, but I wonder how long it's going to take the Order to lose patience with a beaten-but-not-willing-to-admit-it old rogue.

Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

[RatElemental]

With even less respect, her capitulation would be phrased something like respecting their strength.

Well, that is the philosophy ascribed to Kraagor. I don't think Serini really follows it herself, but she might be sentimental enough that she'd state it as a reason even if it isn't.

[Ezekiel]

Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

If it was me, I'd take one of the many missed shots she fired at Haley and stab her with the poisoned arrow. Let her sleep it off.

[Psyren]

Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

Well, the problem there is - most of the ways to render someone helpless but still conscious enough for a conversation, are also ways that an Epic Rogue could likely slip out of.

The Order should still try of course, just pointing that out.

[Wraithfighter]

Fair (and funny) point on #3, but I can't fault the Draketooths for not specifically predicting "Genocide, The Spell" as a potential weakness in their defenses. Illusions being weak to undead/truesight might be a more practical oversight to criticize

Really, just the fact that Girard so badly misjudged Soon and his Paladins that he lied about the location of his gate did more damage than even Familicide did.

If he hadn't done that, then the whole business with Elan's father wouldn't have been needed, and even with Familicide destroying all the guardians of the gate Roy and co would've had ample time to find the base, come to terms with what happened, get a handle on the base, prepare defenses and figure out a way to launch a good ambush. Maybe after getting some backup sent too, they'd have time for that.

[Hurkyl]

Really, just the fact that Girard so badly misjudged Soon and his Paladins that he lied about the location of his gate did more damage than even Familicide did.

If he hadn't done that, then the whole business with Elan's father wouldn't have been needed, and even with Familicide destroying all the guardians of the gate Roy and co would've had ample time to find the base, come to terms with what happened, get a handle on the base, prepare defenses and figure out a way to launch a good ambush. Maybe after getting some backup sent too, they'd have time for that.

Really? You rate whatever defense the OotS would have been able to improvise to be more effective than what Girard's clan could have mustered with actively maintained defenses?

[Ruck]

I'm apprehensive to join the Serini debate, but I guess I can't help myself

Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads people were agreeing with Serini's logic about how the Order of the Stick is to blame for the destruction of previous gates.
I mean, if anything, the order of the Scribble is more to blame here:

The Order directly took the actions to destroy two of the Gates. We're all responsible for our own actions; I think Roy Greenhilt himself would cop to that responsibility.

[RatElemental]

Yeah, I think she's gonna run too. Wondering how Sunny will get out of the top of this cylinder once Mama Toormuck is gone -- do you think she has an escape hatch up there somewhere?

If Sunny is the one appearance unexpected ally, Serini hightailing it now and leaving them behind is a handy way to accomplish that without also having Serini being an ally.

[Wraithfighter]

Really? You rate whatever defense the OotS would have been able to improvise to be more effective than what Girard's clan could have mustered with actively maintained defenses?

Okay, a bit hyperbole, but Roy and co knew what they were dealing with, they had large portions of Xykon's feats and spell list, experience dealing with the Lich, lines of communication with those keeping tabs on Xykon's status in Gobbotopia... knowing the enemy that you're going up against helps a lot.

And its probable that the Draketooth clan wasn't exactly a cabal of high-level characters. Probably a lot closer to the Sapphire Guard in terms of individual power levels, since they hadn't been going on grand adventuring quests. And, like all the other gates aside from Serini's, the very predictable defenses would've likely been simple for an Epic-level lich to overcome.

[Peelee]

Serini's really out of excuses now.

Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway.

Yes, exactly! The just need to figure out a way to be able to convince her they are worth listening to.

.It's easy to draw a false equivalence and then dismantle the strawman, but the order have killed Xykon once, and stole his phylactery at another confrontation, it's the Serini refusing to examine the evidence right in front of her that leads her to not trusting the evidence.

And that is all information that we know, but we don't know it's information Serini knows. Further, even if she does, both of those instances were flukes that cannot be reproduced. Even further, even if they could be reproduced, she believes that are a greater danger to the Gate than Xykon, largely due to her almost certainly knowing that they deliberately chose to destroy a Gate (two, if we're counting the Order and the Paladins together, which I tend to when examining Serini's motivations). The issue is entirely one of information and communication, from what I can tell. Not a lack of examination.

[Wysper]

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

[RatElemental]

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

Depending on how far into the epics she is, a simple handle animal check to rear basically any creature from infancy will make them tame. It's dc 15 + hd for animals, 30 + hd for magical beasts, 35 + hd for vermin, and 40 + dc for literally any other type of creature including abberations.

[Bookwyrm13]

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

[Peelee]

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

That bit in quotes is, quite literally, word for word what I was going to suggest.

[Wraithfighter]

Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

[Hurkyl]

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

I don't see how you can think her level of reasonableness is changing unless you didn't believe prior to this strip that she truly opposes the Order's meddling in gate affairs.

[Peelee]

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

Again, from her perspective, the deliberately destroyed at least one Gate. She does not trust them to not destroy hers. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they wouldn't. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they could adequately explain that they wouldn't.

From Serini's perspective why do they deserve an audience? They're not entitled to one just because they're there.

[Psyren]

Yes, exactly! The just need to figure out a way to be able to convince her they are worth listening to.

She seems willing to listen to Sunny, and he's so far been much more reasonable, so I'd go with that.

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

Well yes, but a lot of them also have been conditioned to attack on sight thanks to other (more typical) adventurers, so there's still an interesting story to be told in how she overcame that particular hurdle.

[Peelee]

She seems willing to listen to Sunny, and he's so far been much more reasonable, so I'd go with that.

That's a good point, Sunny may well be the avenue to Serini. Though, as always, I wouldn't call her unreasonable.

[Wraithfighter]

Again, from her perspective, the deliberately destroyed at least one Gate. She does not trust them to not destroy hers. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they wouldn't. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they could adequately explain that they wouldn't.

From Serini's perspective why do they deserve an audience? They're not entitled to one just because they're there.

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

I think this is the disconnect I have with you when it comes to Serini: I understand why she's acting the way she is, but by no means do I find her actions acceptable or responsible. She is refusing to get any information from some of the only people who have had anything so much as resembling success against Xykon. She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini.

[danielxcutter]

I feel like I've been pretty plugged into the Serini debate since her first appearance in this book, so this assertion doesn't track for me. I'd welcome prominent examples of what you're talking about, though I recognize that's usually a thankless job in forum arguments.

I’d love to, but isn’t it against the forum rules to bring stuff over from other threads? If it’s not, I remember at least one prominent example.

[Psyren]

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

I think this is the disconnect I have with you when it comes to Serini: I understand why she's acting the way she is, but by no means do I find her actions acceptable or responsible. She is refusing to get any information from some of the only people who have had anything so much as resembling success against Xykon. She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini.

This. I understand her actions, but I judge them to be lacking given her self-stated job description.

[Hurkyl]

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

But only a healthy amount. Note, incidentally, that the stakes also mean she can't afford to sacrifice her plan for idealistic reasons either.

[Peelee]

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

I think this is the disconnect I have with you when it comes to Serini: I understand why she's acting the way she is, but by no means do I find her actions acceptable or responsible. She is refusing to get any information from some of the only people who have had anything so much as resembling success against Xykon. She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini.

She has no reason to believe that they have information she doesn't, though. The only reason she might even think they do is because they may have claimed to, which from her perspective would be purely self-serving. If they even claimed to to start with. If they did have information, they could have included it in the Sendings. Hell, if they did, then I'll be on board with not finding her actions acceptable based on what she has to go on.

Story time! So I used to work for a surgeon. She had surgery days, standard days she'd do her surgeries. A good number of people packed in on those days for their surgeries. Well, there was this one patient, she had a very specific, difficult issue going on. We set her up with a joint surgery with mine and another surgeon at another practice. Both doctors had to clear a good chunk of their schedules to do this operation, due to the logistics involved.major disruption for both practices, but the patient has an issue that they can fix, so we do it. This patient, thus, has two surgery schedulers working in tandem walking her through the entire procedure, everything she needs to do to prep for it, after care, everything she needs to know. One of those things, of course, is to be vaccinated. She is told this multiple times by both offices. This is stressed heavily. She says that's not a problem. Come day of, she shows up, starts answering the standard questions, and says she hasn't been vaxxed.

The doctors were livid. Whole thing was called off, their mornings were shot, lot of people they could have seen had been rescheduled weeks back to make room for this woman. She tried to explain. They didn't let her. If she'd had a valid reason (spoiler alert, she didn't), she could have contacted either office ahead of time. Didn't. Just didn't get it and assumed they'd still do the operation.

Now, I'm not telling this story because it's analogous to the Order. It's not. What is analogous is that the doctors did not give two ****s about the "why". They were entirely disinterested in what the patient had to say once they knew a disqualifying factor for them. As far as they were concerned, she ****ed around and then found out. Refused to even let her reschedule it until she could show, to both offices, a card with both dates signed. She had lost any benefit of any doubt because she made a choice that they found completely unacceptable.

Thats Serini. The Order made a choice she finds completely unacceptable. They have lost any benefit of any doubt. They need to show hard evidence in some way to redeem themselves to her. To the best of our knowledge, they have not even attempted this. They simply just did the equivalent of calling the surgery scheduler and going, "well what if i said 'please'?" No. That's not going to cut it after the stunt that was pulled. Not for Serini.

Of course she's wrong, and they had good reason, and they have vital information she doesn't have. However, what they don't have is absolute right to be heard regardless. And that is my disconnect with everyone railing against Serini for having the gall to not kowtow to them. She has a perfectly good reason to not give them the time of day. They have done nothing to counter that. And yet Serini is a moronic, irrational egomaniac for not immediately responding to a group of Gate destroyers who may not even have anything relevant to say that she doesn't already know, and which is likely to be purely self-serving so that they can make sure the last Gate also goes kablooey so long as it stops Xykon from getting his hands on it, just like the last two times.

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

[Wraithfighter]

But only a healthy amount. Note, incidentally, that the stakes also mean she can't afford to sacrifice her plan for idealistic reasons either.

The problem isn't that the OOTS' plans are too idealistic.

I mean, that is certainly a problem, sure, but that's not the problem here.

The problem here is that if everything goes as she expects, aka holding off Xykon for a while but he eventually gets control of the gate, the best case scenario is that the entire world will be destroyed.

You know, that thing that she's doing all of this to try to prevent.

The worst case scenario involves Redcloak's plan working out before the Gods can resolve their deadlock to destroy the world. That could mean the end of a whole lot more than just this one world.

That's why her arrogance is such a problem, and her refusal to get any info from any of the other good guys is becoming so damning: Because she just won't listen to the people who can correct those misconceptions and keeps fighting them, the only thing she's doing is making the very thing she doesn't want more and more likely.

[Hurkyl]

The problem isn't that the OOTS' plans are too idealistic.

I was more referring to things like the idea talking things out should be the first resort or the default. That category of ideals.

P.S. Am I misremembering? I don't recall the Order really having a plan at all: the thing Serini caught them trying to do was a spontaneous improvisation.