OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Wraithfighter]

Of course she's wrong, and they had good reason, and they have vital information she doesn't have. However, what they don't have is absolute right to be heard regardless. And that is my disconnect with everyone railing against Serini for having the gall to not kowtow to them. She has a perfection for reason to not give them the time of day. They have done nothing to counter that. And yet Serini is a moronic, irrational egomaniac for not immediately responding to a group of Gate destroyers who may not even have anything relevant to say that she doesn't already know, and which is likely to be purely self-serving so that they can make sure the last Gate also goes kablooey so long as it stops Xykon from getting his hands on it, just like the last two times.

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

I'm pretty sure I've never called Serini an idiot, and if I have, I was wrong to do so. I find the hyperbolic extremes people are going to with their reaction to her actions to be quite overblown (the whole "actually Serini is evil" stuff I've seen rolling around is just, ugh).

And... they have done things to counter that. They've had opportunities to kill her right there and have worked to de-escalate things. They placed themselves in a position to strike Xykon, instead of pressing in further to destroy the Gate. They've been trying to contact her, explicitly stating that they're trying to safeguard the gates, not destroy them. And they're still working on de-escalating things after she's badly poisoned two members and petrified another.

And while I wish you would avoid couching my arguments in the most insulting light possible (I definitely have not called her an 'uppity bitch not knowing her place'), I agree, it's not going in that direction.

The direction has been pretty clear: The Scribbles saved the world, and then royally f'd up the endgame because the (seeming, still don't see no body!) death of Kraagor broke them. They broke all ties, allowing them and/or their dungeons to be defeated in isolation as their assumptions about the awesomeness of their own specific sort of power left them vulnerable. They weren't able to handle the trauma of Kraagor's loss, and the echoes of that have nearly undone every single one of their achievements.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure I've never called Serini an idiot, and if I have, I was wrong to do so. I find the hyperbolic extremes people are going to with their reaction to her actions to be quite overblown (the whole "actually Serini is evil" stuff I've seen rolling around is just, ugh).

And... they have done things to counter that. They've had opportunities to kill her right there and have worked to de-escalate things. They placed themselves in a position to strike Xykon, instead of pressing in further to destroy the Gate. They've been trying to contact her, explicitly stating that they're trying to safeguard the gates, not destroy them. And they're still working on de-escalating things after she's badly poisoned two members and petrified another.

And while I wish you would avoid couching my arguments in the most insulting light possible, (I definitely have called her an 'uppity bitch not knowing her place'), I agree, it's not going in that direction.

The direction has been pretty clear: The Scribbles saved the world, and then royally f'd up the endgame because the (seeming, still don't see no body!) death of Kraagor broke them. They broke all ties, allowing them and/or their dungeons to be defeated in isolation as their assumptions about the awesomeness of their own specific sort of power left them vulnerable. They weren't able to handle the trauma of Kraagor's loss, and the echoes of that have nearly undone every single one of their achievements.

You specifically haven't called her moronic, no. Most of my diatribe wasn't directed at you, but at the general vibe I see (there is an entire thread devoted to calling Serini a moron, for example). And while neither you now anyone else has described Serini as an uppity bitch who needs to know her place, that is the logical conclusion of expecting the Order to have the absolute right to be heard by her. Every argument I've seen has gone to the effect of "she woudlnt lose anything," or "she should know she doesn't know everything," or "the stakes are too high for her to-". Every single one hinges on her bieng in the wrong for not acquiescing to the Order, despite the fact that they destroyed Gates. Not a single one has ever tried to address the onus on the Order of needing to show their worth. From our perspective, we know their worth. From Serini's, she doesn't at all. And yet, despite pounding that drum over and over, I still have never seen anyone critical of Serini put any responsibility on the Order. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Serini needs to know her place, which is subservient to the Order. The colorful bits were me editorializing, and I apologize if it came across as accusing you or anyone else of thinking in such insulting terms. I didn't intend it to be taken that way, I just wanted to emphasize how distasteful I found that conclusion. But I cannot separate "Serini should have listened to the Order for whatever reason" from "they did not need to do anything on their own to earn the right to be heard".

[Ruck]

Everything Peelee said in those last two posts goes for me as well.

[Anitar]

How does one "prove they have the right to be heard" by someone who won't give them any chance to offer proof (or any other information, for that matter)?

[danielxcutter]

I still feel that people keep conflating the "I don't agree with Serini" opinions with "Serini is evil and needs to die painfully" opinions.

[Peelee]

How does one "prove they have the right to be heard" by someone who won't give them any chance to offer proof (or any other information, for that matter)?

They had multiple Sendings. They certainly had chances to do so in those. And, again, if it comes to light that they did, then I will switch sides so fast I'll need some dramamine to help with the motion sickness.

But, that aside, I have to note again that I have yet to see anyone critical of Serini even suggesting that they need to, which I find problematic.

[Wraithfighter]

Not a single one has ever tried to address the onus on the Order of needing to show their worth. From our perspective, we know their worth. From Serini's, she doesn't at all. And yet, despite pounding that drum over and over, I still have never seen anyone critical of Serini put any responsibility on the Order. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Serini needs to know her place, which is subservient to the Order. The colorful bits were me editorializing, and I apologize if it came across as accusing you or anyone else of thinking in such insulting terms. I didn't intend it to be taken that way, I just wanted to emphasize how distasteful I found that conclusion. But I cannot separate "Serini should have listened to the Order for whatever reason" from "they did not need to do anything on their own to earn the right to be heard".

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

I mean, where does her authority come from? Why does anything need to be proven to her? She saved the world that one time? Is that it? Is it her high-level? Is it that she built this tomb for Kraagor and its the closest thing to a gate she decided to defend, even if she took a while before getting around to doing that?

I'm not dismissing those as valid reasons, for the record. And no, she shouldn't be obligated to help them because they're a mid-to-high level party of mostly-good-aligned characters... but she's actively working against them. They've been trying to contact her because it's her turf and they want her help, but their plans thus far have been operating under the assumption that she's not present.

So, to turn that question around on Serini: What has she done that's obligated the Order of the Stick to prove themselves to her? Because it really does feel like it comes down to "She was part of the party that saved the world that one time" and "she constructed a dungeon that's severely inconvenienced Team Evil". Those are noteworthy accomplishments... then again, they only really know the first part of that for certain.

And as far as they're aware, she's trying to kill them all.

But second, lets be fair and address it: The problem I have with the argument that the Order needs to show their worth to her is that she's not giving them the chance to do so. No secret tests of character, no leading them on with messages to try to pump them for info while keeping herself open to the possibility that she's wrong, no divinations, not standing down when they're willing to let bygones be bygones after badly poisoning and petrifying two members of their group and giving them one last chance.

So, no, they've not done anything to prove themselves to her. She's refused to allow them to.

Again, she's being more hardline and unreasonable than the Paladins. Go back all the way to Azure City, when Hinjo discovered that this party who had destroyed one Gate, was harboring a known murderer (and more), and was working with his duplicitous uncle behind the Paladin's backs.

He still kept perspective, kept calm, wanted to do things legally and by the book (because Paladin), but was trying to keep things de-escalated and calm, trying to reason with people, trying to focus on the big picture.

Right now, yeah, I'm sorry, but Seriri's acting closer to Miko than Hinjo right now. Both of them were presented with the same facts, knew of the same dangers, understood the same stakes.

One was willing to give Shojo a chance to prove himself right (via a trial).

The other... did not.

[Peelee]

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

Nothing could be simpler! It's because they want to talk to her. She does not want to talk to them. This, by default, means they need to prove their worth. If Serini wanted to talk to them and they did not want to talk to her, it'd be the other way around.

And, again, they had ample chances to prove their worth, with all the Sendings they had going. They could have talked about the planet in the Rift, or the godsmoot, or any of the things they already want to talk to her about. Things that may have piqued her interest. So far, it looks like they were just saying "we have information! Totally! It's legit and everything!" Which, if anything, would just make one even more suspicious that they have nothing and are on a fishing expedition.

[Ruck]

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

I mean, where does her authority come from? Why does anything need to be proven to her? She saved the world that one time? Is that it? Is it her high-level? Is it that she built this tomb for Kraagor and its the closest thing to a gate she decided to defend, even if she took a while before getting around to doing that?

She did! She built this gate, she's defending it, and she considers it her top priority. Why does she need more authority than that?

I don't really understand how "authority" comes into it; there's no formal structure or hierarchy here, so the framing of the question really means Serini's autonomy, her own decisions to protect the gate the way she sees best and her ability to do so. Why should she cede her own autonomy to a group of people who keep saying they're protecting the gates but keep destroying them?

[Hurkyl]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Serini heard them out and responded "Okay, thank you for your information. Now get out and never come back". A lot of the anti-Serini sentiment wasn't just that she's not listening to them, but also asserting that, at the very least, she is obligated to actively include them in her defenses.

I'm not entirely sure the Order would accept being shut out; the only way I could see the Order agreeing is if the plot did something shortly thereafter to invalidate the agreement before they have time to really accept it.

[Wraithfighter]

Nothing could be simpler! It's because they want to talk to her. She does not want to talk to them. This, by default, means they need to prove their worth. If Serini wanted to talk to them and they did not want to talk to her, it'd be the other way around.

And, again, they had ample chances to prove their worth, with all the Sendings they had going. They could have talked about the planet in the Rift, or the godsmoot, or any of the things they already want to talk to her about. Things that may have piqued her interest. So far, it looks like they were just saying "we have information! Totally! It's legit and everything!" Which, if anything, would just make one even more suspicious that they have nothing and are on a fishing expedition.

They'd like to talk to her, sure.

But that's not their main goal right now. Their main goals right now are:

1: Not blow up the world.

2: Destroying Xykon.

3: Either defeating Redcloak or convincing him to alter his plan.

So, yes, they'd like to talk to Serini, but she's not actually integral to any of the above plans. She'd be a useful asset, but what they really want right now is for her to stop shooting them in the face and preventing them from saving the world already geez.

That's why I don't buy that they have an obligation to prove anything to Serini. As far as I'm concerned, she lost the right to demand that when she attacked and abducted their friends and allies, and then attacked them when they were getting set to ambush a potentially weakened big bad.

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.

EDIT: Oh, and one other note: You're saying that they have the opportunity to prove themselves via the Sendings... but it's a 25 word limit, and a Lv. 4/5 spell, and they have no idea that they have anything to prove. It's unfair to blame them for failing to take advantage of the Sending to prove themselves when they're completely in the blind about her attitude towards them.

[Hurkyl]

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.

That's not what she wants. She wants them away from and uninvolved with the gate.

[Peelee]

They'd like to talk to her, sure.

But that's not their main goal right now. Their main goals right now are:

1: Not blow up the world.

2: Destroying Xykon.

3: Either defeating Redcloak or convincing him to alter his plan.

So, yes, they'd like to talk to Serini, but she's not actually integral to any of the above plans. She'd be a useful asset, but what they really want right now is for her to stop shooting them in the face and preventing them from saving the world already geez.

That's why I don't buy that they have an obligation to prove anything to Serini. As far as I'm concerned, she lost the right to demand that when she attacked and abducted their friends and allies, and then attacked them when they were getting set to ambush a potentially weakened big bad.

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

[RatElemental]

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

They tried to talk with her after she ambushed them in lieu of killing her. You know, because of the whole ambushing thing. I... don't really see how that's a bad thing.

edit to add: They didn't know she was even alive before she ambushed them, too. As far as they knew Kraagor's Tomb was inhabited only by the monsters put in it by her back when she built it and there were no active defenders. They didn't know they were trespassing or that Serini didn't want them there.

[mehs]

I wonder if there's a way to explain actions here within the framework of the rules, or if we should just see that as an artistic interpretation.
An attack would not break the grapple (or a pin). Serini could've just escaped grapple, I guess, but getting out of a pin would require two grapple checks at least, and she's probably both weaker than Haley due to her old age, and also smaller, getting -4 to her check. She could've used escape artist skill to break the pin/grapple, but that would take at least two rounds.
One possible interpretation would be that the piercer bull rushed Haley moving her out of Serini's space, but it doesn't look drawn that way.

Custom epic usage of escape artist to go from pin to free in one standard action rather than one?

[Peelee]

They tried to talk with her after she ambushed them in lieu of killing her.

Oh, the magnanimity. "We didn't immediately kill you, so that's a favor you owe us for". Truly that could only come from the most heroic of heroes. I may need my fainting couch so I don't hurt myself as I swoon.

[Ionathus]

"The Order hasn't given her a compelling reason to listen" is not the same sentence as "The Order is at fault for not giving her a compelling reason to listen."

And "not killing someone who's attacking you" is not a perfect demonstration that you can be trusted with a Gate. Sure, it's preferable to the alternative, but the two things don't really affect each other -- for all we know, Serini already expected that The Order wouldn't try to kill her. I don't see how that would impact her opinion of their competency, their threat to the Gate, or whether they're worth talking to.

[Wraithfighter]

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

Yes, it's her fault, because she's attacked them and is, as far as they're aware, trying to kill them! Do you really expect them to go "Oh, I'm sorry, we should've known by your ambush with an incredibly powerful monster that you aren't actually trying to permanently kill us, just incapacitate us so you can destroy our memories and outright sabotage our efforts at saving the lives of literally everyone to ever exist anywhere, no biggie, we'll just be going now"?

And the question of why does she deserve demanding people prove themselves worthy to her returns. Where does her authority come from? Because yeah, she saved the world and built a tomb that's slowing down Team Evil. But not stopping them. The many doors trick won't fool them forever, and she can't run out the clock on this.

With her plan, sooner or later, Xykon will take control of the gate. Even if they have to recheck every door, they've got time, the Calvary coming to stop them is the party that she's attacked out of nowhere. The trap will be tricky for them to deal with, but does anyone seriously think they won't figure it out eventually, once the brute force technique that they'd been using fails?

She's being arrogant, acting recklessly, attacking people without giving them any chance at all to prove themselves... and any claim that she's doing this to better protect the gate falls apart with that last point. She's done nothing but bought time, and is doing nothing with it.

So... why does anyone have to prove anything to her again?

[RatElemental]

Oh, the magnanity. "We didn't immediately kill you, so that's a favor you owe us for". Truly that could only come from the most heroic of heroes.

After she, as far as they know, tried to kill them first.

I just edited my post, but they didn't know she was even alive until she ambushed them and didn't know she didn't want them to be there.

[pyrefiend]

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

She should listen because she's in charge of protecting a gate, and the Order has been directly involved in all the goings-on with the gates. Why turn down the opportunity to get some sort of explanation about what has been going on? In the worst case scenario, she'd learn nothing useful, and she'd reveal only that she is alive. (She could lie about anything else.) In the best case scenario, she'd learn something important about what has been going on with the other Gates. (Something VERY useful, as it turns out!)

The idea that the Order needs to "prove their worth" just seems silly to me. She's in charge of protecting a Gate. They're offering information about the Gates. Unless she thinks that they're some sort of magical prank callers, which seems unlikely, she should realize that she has a lot to gain and little to lose by hearing them out—if only for a few dozen words.

I don't think her behavior is unrealistic. Lots of people perform important jobs incompetently. But I do think she's doing her job incompetently, and I don't think we're supposed to think otherwise.

[Peelee]

She should listen because she's in charge of protecting a gate, and the Order has been directly involved in all the goings-on with the gates.

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

[RatElemental]

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

Don't know about that, but when he calls you to ask to borrow your car, it might be a good idea to pick up the phone and tell him not to instead of giving him no indication you exist.

What you definitely should not do is hide in your garage with a baseball bat to beat him with when he comes to check on you and or borrow said car.

[pyrefiend]

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

It's pretty uncharitable to describe their involvement with the gates by merely saying that they destroyed two of them. It's not as though they're intentionally trying to usher in the destruction of reality, and Sirini presumably knows that.

But... even if she does think that they're intentionally destroying the gates in order to destroy the world, she would still have much to gain and little to lose by answering them. She could just lie about everything. In the best case scenario she'd fool them and learn about them; in the worst case scenario they wouldn't learn anything except that she exists.

[Hurkyl]

The idea that the Order needs to "prove their worth" just seems silly to me. She's in charge of protecting a Gate. They're offering information about the Gates. Unless she thinks that they're some sort of magical prank callers, which seems unlikely, she should realize that she has a lot to gain and little to lose by hearing them out—if only for a few dozen words.

Already had many instances of two dozen plus one words.

It's also worth noting the Paladins did successfully engage her in conversation. Rather than give her any information, what they found important to convey is to insist that Serini should work with them and lecture her on how wrong she is.

Edit: For the record, I'm not convinced there is any indication to Serini they might have something worth listening to. Nor am I convinced that they would not have a chance to speak before being mind-wiped if Serini was successful at capturing them.

[Psyren]

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

I definitely have not called her anything remotely close to this I'd like to take the temperature down a notch or two if we could.

If I'm holding her actions to a high standard, it's because she has, by her own admission, appointed herself protector of the entire world. For me, that does not square with being so sure she knows everything she could ever need to know that she won't even answer a phone call, never mind an insistent and repeated one.

It's pretty uncharitable to describe their involvement with the gates by merely saying that they destroyed two of them. It's not as though they're intentionally trying to usher in the destruction of reality, and Sirini presumably knows that.

But... even if she does think that they're intentionally destroying the gates in order to destroy the world, she would still have much to gain and little to lose by answering them. She could just lie about everything. In the best case scenario she'd fool them and learn about them; in the worst case scenario they wouldn't learn anything except that she exists.

An epic rogue, lie or be evasive? What a strange notion.

[pyrefiend]

Already had many instances of two dozen plus one words.

It's also worth noting the Paladins did successfully engage her in conversation. Rather than give her any information, what they found important to convey is to insist that Serini should work with them and lecture her on how wrong she is.

So... what is the point here? She's so averse to being lectured that she's no longer willing to communicate with anyone who might prove unhelpful? That doesn't seem like a particularly reasonable policy. Even if there's only a small chance that the Order (or whoever) has some useful information, she should take that chance seriously. There's a lot at stake! The possibility of receiving an annoying and unhelpful lecture is not good enough reason to give up an opportunity at intel.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.

[Peelee]

I definitely have not called her anything remotely close to this I'd like to take the temperature down a notch or two if we could.

If I'm holding her actions to a high standard, it's because she has, by her own admission, appointed herself protector of the entire world.

I've already addressed the first paragraph.

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

[georgie_leech]

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

Personally, I had hopes that they'd get a chance while Haley was physically holding her still. After all, forcing someone to listen may not be the most polite or effective, but it is a workaround when someone doesn't want to talk in the first place. Alas, she proved to wily for that. Here's hoping one them exclaims frustratedly about her stopping them from stopping the world from being destroyed when Xykon gets the Gate or the like.

[Psyren]

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

At least they don't assume they know everything and will answer a phone call about their task.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.

This.

[BriarHobbit]

Serini fights on, but a single smallish piercer is not going to change the flow of battle. At this level, it's a minor distraction. The Order needs to win this fight. If they can't beat Serini or persuade her to stand down now, they won't be able to do it tied up as she prepares to douse them with amnesia potion.