OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Hurkyl]

So... what is the point here? She's so averse to being lectured that she's no longer willing to communicate with anyone who might prove unhelpful? That doesn't seem like a particularly reasonable policy. Even if there's only a small chance that the Order (or whoever) has some useful information, she should take that chance seriously. There's a lot at stake! The possibility of receiving an annoying and unhelpful lecture is not good enough reason to give up an opportunity at intel.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.

Great. She has a chance to debrief/interrogate the Order before mindwiping them.

[danielxcutter]

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

Also point of order - Lirian's Gate being destroyed isn't the Order's fault at all and Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate.

Seriously, I'd imagine "someone attacked me for the Gate locations, be on guard for a sorcerer lich" would be in the bounds of the oath, assuming anyone besides Soon and the Guard even cared about it at all in the first place(and we're inclined to believe they didn't).

[RatElemental]

I've already addressed the first paragraph.

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

Also point of order - Lirian's Gate being destroyed isn't the Order's fault at all and Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate.

The two gates the order destroyed people keep referring to are Dorukan's and Girard's.

[Yendor]

Serini was contacted out of the blue by a group claiming to be protecting the Gates. The only people who are supposed to know about them aren't supposed to contact her about them, and the last person she encountered who knew about them horribly disfigured her and stole her information on them. Why, then, should she automatically assume they have good intentions? Surely the prudent thing would be to find out who the hell these people are first. And if the first thing she finds out is that they destroyed one of the Gates, directly contradicting their claims, why would she want anything to do with them?

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Lirian hadn't let slip that there were other Gates left standing.

[danielxcutter]

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

And if we're chalking "not knowing something they had no way of knowing" as a major point against the Order, that should go the same for Serini for not knowing about the Godsmoot(if nothing else she should know that the gods might pull the rug out from everyone if things get real bad).

Also, if they hadn't blown the Gate, Redcloak would bring Xykon back to the dungeon and they'd have lured someone else in to deactivate the rune all over again. So yeah.

[Alexandrite]

Well, there goes Serini again. Unless the Piercer can fly around freely, she must be a future psychic to have positioned a monster right above where she would get pinned in the middle of an ambush-turned-battle.

I've got mixed feelings about this fight continuing. On one hand it's pretty cool seeing what random monsters will show up here, on the other Serini herself started getting annoying after about two pages and this could easily go on for a while.

[pyrefiend]

Great. She has a chance to debrief/interrogate the Order before mindwiping them.

That's a good point. If her plan all along has been to interrogate them from a position of strength, then that's not so terribly unreasonable. I still think it's fairly unreasonable, but it's not as bad as if she were completely writing them off as unimportant.

[Peelee]

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

First one is incompetence, second one the result is something they had no idea about at the time. Sorry, I'm not big on justification after the fact. But hey, if we're doing that, then we know everything turns out alright in the end so Serini is free and clear here, right?

At least they don't assume they know everything and will answer a phone call about their task.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance. Kind of rides on that whole "depends on the person's thoughts about the caller" thing I've been hammering on about, ya know? I bet Tarquin is just kicking himself for not finding out who Serini is so he could have Sent to her, since she would be obligated to discuss things with him, as he would be any old person wanting to talk Gate.

[Wraithfighter]

That's a good point. If her plan all along has been to interrogate them from a position of strength, then that's not so terribly unreasonable. I still think it's fairly unreasonable, but it's not as bad as if she were completely writing them off as unimportant.

Agreed. I'd still ding her a bunch of points for her actions thus far, but if she's willing to hear them out from a position of strength and accept that she might be wrong, it'd assuage a lot of my concerns about her actions, that while she might be arrogant, it's not to the point where she's willing to risk the fate of the world on the assumption that she's right.

Because, yeah, it's literally the end of the world if she's wrong. She really, really shouldn't be taking that chance.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance. Kind of rides on that whole "depends on the person's thoughts about the caller" thing I've been hammering on about, ya know? I bet Tarquin is just kicking himself for not finding out who Serini is so he could have Sent to her, since she would be obligated to discuss things with him, as he would be any old person wanting to talk Gate.

You mean, like when Elan, Haley and Durkon had to play nice with Tarquin the Tyrant for a few days because he had critical information about the gate they were searching for, with Roy being willing to stay unjustly (if legally) imprisoned for a while in order to let that happen?

[Psyren]

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

...Come to think of it, why did she do that? Clearly the other Scribblers (and their descendants) didn't need her diary to find them, because Shojo knew where Lirian's was without it.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance.

Yeah, they'd never answer a Sending from Nale, or indeed any other enemy, what was I thinking.

[RatElemental]

Yeah, they'd never answer a Sending from Nale, or indeed any other enemy, what was I thinking.

Well there was that one time Nale sent to Roy. Roy spoke, but Nale didn't respond to anything he said and he was just reading off a ransom demand anyway.

[Psyren]

Well there was that one time Nale sent to Roy. Roy spoke, but Nale didn't respond to anything he said and he was just reading off a ransom demand anyway.

I didn't think I'd need the blue text there.

[Hurkyl]

...Come to think of it, why did she do that? Clearly the other Scribblers (and their descendants) didn't need her diary to find them, because Shojo knew where Lirian's was without it.

I thought they all exchanged gate locations with the others? If nothing else we know that Girard communicated coordinates to both Soon and Serini. I would assume all of the Scribblers recorded them in some fashion. Didn't Xykon say something about Serini simply being the most accessible of the group?

[danielxcutter]

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

[a_flemish_guy]

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

because she's an epic rogue and not much in the world is supposed to be threat to her? if you need a certain item from a dragon's hoard when is the best time to try and grab it: when it's there or when it's away? same principle applies

also this isn't a binder of top secret information documents, it's her diary, it's where she writes down her daily thoughts and goings-on and I presume was still doing so when xykon fried her

[Wraithfighter]

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

Not to mention that she could probably encode the coordinates carefully, a cypher made by an epic level rogue is probably something that's going to be hard to crack.

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story. I have a feeling that it's going to play into things more and inform how she got so... this when we actually start getting conversations, but story functionality is something we have to keep in mind too. Sometimes characters make mistakes during a story because, without it, we wouldn't have a story.

Still... maybe this is a reason she's so hell-bent against getting help from the Order of the Stick. She sees a lot of her younger, more carefree self in the party, and just how much damage that sort of attitude did to the world, and to her friends.

[Psyren]

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

On top of which, Girard's was really the only hidden one. All the rest were at pretty prominent landmarks that she could have remembered. So there was literally one set of coordinates for her to remember rather than 5, did she need her diary for that?

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story.

From a narrative aspect I have no problem with it, it does make for a great story. But since apparently any attempt at questioning her competence is reproachful...

[danielxcutter]

Not to mention that she could probably encode the coordinates carefully, a cypher made by an epic level rogue is probably something that's going to be hard to crack.

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story. I have a feeling that it's going to play into things more and inform how she got so... this when we actually start getting conversations, but story functionality is something we have to keep in mind too. Sometimes characters make mistakes during a story because, without it, we wouldn't have a story.

Still... maybe this is a reason she's so hell-bent against getting help from the Order of the Stick. She sees a lot of her younger, more carefree self in the party, and just how much damage that sort of attitude did to the world, and to her friends.

I do suppose the coordinates wouldn't have done much on their own if you didn't already know where at least one of the Gates were in the first place. (Also they were coded.)

[Alexandrite]

Serini has nothing to lose from at least listening to what the Order has to say, as she's already revealed herself and they're still interested in talking even after her opening attack. The worst case from an outside perspective is that they know nothing or lie, and then things continue as normal. Her only reasoning for not taking this chance for information is spite and perhaps some arrogance that she knows everything about the situation.

We as the reader know her intel is a few eggs short of a cake here, so it could be hard to impartially judge her decisions regarding the Order. But the Giant knows that we have the relevant information and is also a very good writer so I don't think we're intended to see her actions so far as reasonable. That's not to say she's a villain or an 'uppity bitch' as some have apparently called her, but by refusing communication at every chance she's made herself into an antagonist, certainly. And if the Order eventually decided it was a waste of time/too risky trying to reason with her and treated her like one, she'd be the only one at fault for that.

[Hurkyl]

Serini has nothing to lose from at least listening to what the Order has to say, as she's already revealed herself and they're still interested in talking even after her opening attack. The worst case from an outside perspective is that they know nothing or lie, and then things continue as normal. Her only reasoning for not taking this chance for information is spite and perhaps some arrogance that she knows everything about the situation.

At the conclusion of this strip she has has something very concrete to lose: the chance to take actions while the Order is partially incapacitated.

[Vikenlugaid]

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???
.

Partly, but i didn't say they were "twice guilty" than Miko for that gate.

Btw, I am totally sure uf Miko was alife and she was the one coming to this gate, everybody would agree with Serini capturing her... But the justification for Serini, not knowing her personality, is the same than with the order or the paladins here.
The only diference to us the readers is if we like or not lile that character, and that is irrelevant from the point of view of a character who doesn't know them.

[Liquor Box]

A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.

Well that scenario implies you had some reason to think I don't have $5, and you extrapolate that I therefore don't have enough for a Ferrari. Me pulling $20 out shows that your "some reason" was wrong. Although it doesn't prove that I do have enough, your reason to think I don't has been dispelled. Therefore you'd be irrational not to re-evaluate.

Of course if you did choose to re-evaluate, me trying to buy a Ferrari several times before does suggest my assertion that I have enough this time might not be reliable. I don't know how that relates to the comic though, because the only time the Order has taken on Team Evil, they won.

2.) OK, let's say the Order only wants to talk to her. Your attempted role reversal still fails immediately because that is an incredibly poor method to extract information you want to learn.

What's a better tactic? They've already tried talking to her cordially several times and been rejected. That being the case, subduing her and holding her captive seems reasonable. They would have something she wants to bargain with (her freedom), or if their morals are more Serini like they could hit her with a stick if she doesn't answer how they like.

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...

I don't know who Joe Rando is, but you have identified the obvious way of not giving away secrets. Don't write them in your diary.

Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads

You are most welcome

Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

If she just doesn't think they have anything interesting to say, then it would be unwise of her not to talk to them just in case, unless she has a reason not to. In the Moron thread some people were suggesting that she did have a reason not to, because she didn't even want the Order to know she was alive. I think the point being made here, is that that reason not to no longer exists because they now know she's alive.

[Bookwyrm13]

I actually do think the argument of "Serini was dumb for writing down the locations of the gates in her diary" has some merit, to a degree. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she carried around some guilt for that, nor would it surprise me if it in some way informed how she's behaving now. Maybe when she sees the Order, they remind her of herself as a plucky halfling girl who accidentally gave a megalomaniac the chance to blow up the world. I'm not saying this is true, but it's certainly a possible route her character could go down.

(Though I also can't really think of where else she would have kept it that would be safer than on her person--I don't believe she was living at the dungeon at the time, and I imagine a rogue that can hide/evade/slip away at a moment's notice can keep better watch over it than leaving it around. But I understand the idea that she should have burned those pages or blacked the coordinates out with marker or something.)

But that was also decades ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure where the statute of limitations on that runs out, but as far as "actions that have jeopardized the Gates" goes, the Order's are at least more recent.

[Alexandrite]

At the conclusion of this strip she has has something very concrete to lose: the chance to take actions while the Order is partially incapacitated.

Only if she's deadset on seeing the Order as enemies that need to be defeated. Which, given that they've tried multiple times to settle things without combat and also managed to come back from most of what she's thrown at them so far, doesn't feel like the most reasonable mindset to have.

[Liquor Box]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Serini heard them out and responded "Okay, thank you for your information. Now get out and never come back". A lot of the anti-Serini sentiment wasn't just that she's not listening to them, but also asserting that, at the very least, she is obligated to actively include them in her defenses.

I'm not entirely sure the Order would accept being shut out; the only way I could see the Order agreeing is if the plot did something shortly thereafter to invalidate the agreement before they have time to really accept it.

I don't think anyone has asserted that she is obligated to include them in her defences. It's just she would be unwise not to do so, because including them is probably her best chance of preventing the gate's destruction. This should be apparent to her based on what she already seems to know, but would probably be even more apparent if the Order gave her further details.

So if she said "now get out and don't come back", she'd still be acting irrationally. But, even if she's not working with them, at least she's not attacking them (I presume she's not?), which would be an improvement.

But that was also decades ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure where the statute of limitations on that runs out, but as far as "actions that have jeopardized the Gates" goes, the Order's are at least more recent.

They are more recent, but i don't think time elapsed dictates who is most responsible. She is partially responsible for the destruction of the gates. In most cases others are probably more responsible, because their actions contributed more directly, but she is still partially responsible. I'm not trying to paint her as the one cause of the world's downfall, only that she has made catastrophic mistakes just like the Order. If one was to call the Order incompetent, then I think Serini would be incompetent too if judged by the same standard.

Partly, but i didn't say they were "twice guilty" than Miko for that gate.

The 'twice' was simply a reference to the number of gates destruction they played a part in.

Btw, I am totally sure uf Miko was alife and she was the one coming to this gate, everybody would agree with Serini capturing her... But the justification for Serini, not knowing her personality, is the same than with the order or the paladins here.
The only diference to us the readers is if we like or not lile that character, and that is irrelevant from the point of view of a character who doesn't know them.

Depending on the circumstances, I don't think i'd agree with Serini attacking Miko. I don't even think I'd agree with the paladins attacking her (despite them having more reason to do so) if she was gunning for Xykon and was willing to work with them.

[Bookwyrm13]

They are more recent, but i don't think time elapsed dictates who is most responsible. She is partially responsible for the destruction of the gates. In most cases others are probably more responsible, because their actions contributed more directly, but she is still partially responsible. I'm not trying to paint her as the one cause of the world's downfall, only that she has made catastrophic mistakes just like the Order. If one was to call the Order incompetent, then I think Serini would be incompetent too if judged by the same standard.

Dictate who's most responsible? Certainly not. But I think it does give her more time to reflect on those mistakes and learn from them.

I don't think the Order has had that, from her perspective (which is always what I've been trying to consider, to be clear. I don't actually believe the Gates were destroyed through incomp--okay, I don't believe Girard's Gate was destroyed through incompetence). Certainly from her perspective I'd be side-eyeing the fact that the intentional destruction was done after the semi-accidental one, for reasons she has already expressed disdain.

[Liquor Box]

Dictate who's most responsible? Certainly not. But I think it does give her more time to reflect on those mistakes and learn from them.

I don't think the Order has had that, from her perspective (which is always what I've been trying to consider, to be clear. I don't actually believe the Gates were destroyed through incomp--okay, I don't believe Girard's Gate was destroyed through incompetence). Certainly from her perspective I'd be side-eyeing the fact that the intentional destruction was done after the semi-accidental one, for reasons she has already expressed disdain.

If your point is that Serini has had more time to reflect on and learn from her mistake than the Order, then I agree. Whether she has actually done that probably depends whether you think she is making another blunder now.

No doubt, Girard's gate was destroyed deliberately by Roy. I think that was a good decision from him, given what he knew. I think V was speaking with the voice of the author when saying "Sir Greenhilt's logic is sound based on what he knows, but he does not know all". You (or Serini) may not see it that way. But, if Roy was wrong to destroy Girard's gate, then that was still just a lapse in judgment by him, much like Serini's lapse of judgment with the diary.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html

[kingcheesepants]

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

She absolutely doesn't know that she has nothing to gain from them. She's presuming that they just want to stop Xykon from taking over the world and since she doesn't care about Xykon she therefore thinks that she has nothing to gain from talking. But they very well could have valuable information that she could utilize or that recontextualizes the situation in an important way (as is indeed the case) and for all she knows she might be able to get them to back away or leave without a fight and possibly stop others from coming. The only way to find out is by talking which she is actively avoiding. Heck even if talking leads to nothing worthwhile she could drug them more easily if they were talking it out over some drinks rather than fighting. Avoiding talking is actively detrimental to all of her goals.

But talkint how? While they have her grappled? Who would want to talk like that when she can avoid that situation?

The order was attempting to establish communication before anyone was being grappled and presumably they would be perfectly willing to stop grappling her if she stopped fighting them and just talked. In fact accepting their overtures to communication would be the easiest way to get out of the situation of being grappled (and shot at etc).

[Bookwyrm13]

If your point is that Serini has had more time to reflect on and learn from her mistake than the Order, then I agree. Whether she has actually done that probably depends whether you think she is making another blunder now.

No doubt, Girard's gate was destroyed deliberately by Roy. I think that was a good decision from him, given what he knew. I think V was speaking with the voice of the author when saying "Sir Greenhilt's logic is sound based on what he knows, but he does not know all". You (or Serini) may not see it that way. But, if Roy was wrong to destroy Girard's gate, then that was still just a lapse in judgment by him, much like Serini's lapse of judgment with the diary.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html

I admit, I have conflicting thoughts about whether or not we're meant to believe Roy was making a sound decision. Certainly we are at the time, but then Serini shows up and, in what I personally find to be a very clever piece of writing, challenges that assumption by beginning with a different premise--the idea that a world ruled by Xykon is preferable to one destroyed. I don't know if Rich wants us to agree with that premise. I don't know if I agree with the premise myself, honestly. But I think it's a question worth asking, and I believe that it was intended to be a question worth asking, and it provide an interesting contrast to the assumptions we'd been meant to make up until that point.

But I also don't think it matters that much. Maybe Roy was right, wrong, right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. And hey, if they want to blame Scribblers after the fact for their lapses in judgment, I'm happy to. Whether it's Serini keeping the locations in a diary, Dorukan putting a self-destruct button on his Gate, Girard relying purely on his family line and no one else, Lirian lashing her Gate between two sapient beings that fear fire, Lirian and the druids caring for the forest in such a way that it's so susceptible to forest fire, Lirian giving Xykon the information that there are multiple gates (Guys, I'm starting to think the real bad decision maker of the Scribblers was Lirian all along). They've all made mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20.

The problem is that right now, the world can't afford any more lapses in judgment. Serini can't change what she did in the past (and of course, nor can the Order). But what she can influence, is whether or not she lets the most prolific and recent group of Gate-destroyers anywhere near the last one.

[Tyrell]

I'm curious, actually. I can't find any 3.5e sources that detail stats for a piercer, and the one source I could find that details stats for a piercer, for 5e, gives them an INT of 1. Yet it answers to a name, and makes a noise indicating anger/hunger/some other emotion, despite the fact that that's borderline non-sentient. Is her Animal Handling just that high or is something weird going on here?