What does a "remaking the world" cycle look like?

[Hurkyl]

I've been looking over some of the older comics discussing, and the details I've come across don't seem to add up.

In #0998, Loki explains that they have 10-15 minutes between Kraagor's rift opening and the Snarl getting out.

How long were all five rifts open before the Scribblers sealed and gated them? Or were they not all active at the same time? If the latter, why don't rifts keep appearing?

I guess in #1140, Thor describes that the rifts open then the Snarl starts reaching out and destroying stuff. I guess these together meshes with #0945 where it took a while before the Snarl started attacking. But... the Snarl hasn't been attacking anyone in Gobbotopia, has it? It seems more that Laurin drew its attention....

So, the only immediate threat we're looking at upon critical gate failure is... just the snarl lashing out in the areas where the rifts are?

Why is sealing and gating the rifts even a thing? The way they're portrayed gives me the impression that they could hold back the Snarl indefinitely... so why isn't a standard practice for the gods to set up to prolong a world? We know from #1140 that the Gods can't even keep a world going for more than a few thousand years.... Has something magical happened since there is purple Quiddity in the world to let Lirian and Dorukan do something that had never been done before? I don't think that makes sense though since none of the Gods have talked about that achievement.

In #1144, Thor describes that what happens is there's an interim period -- long enough for even established new gods to starve to death -- where the Snarl rampages around, and the gods just wait until it "calms down", at which point they can "trap it again".

I guess... the prime material plane is also a prison for the Snarl that for some reason is not described in those terms? So the Gods just salvage what they can from the world while the snarl is ripping apart the world, the Snarl goes and rampages throughout the prime material plane, and eventually gets docile enough for the Gods to weave a new world while it's not noticing? That trapping bit strikes me as off somehow and really needs further explanation, but I don't think we have any available?

Is the Prime Material Plane really the only place the gods can create worlds? Are D&D gots not able to create new planes? Or to create worlds in other planes?

Ultimately, the whole thing seems dissatisfying. After looking up this information, I definitely get the feeling I'm being fed what to believe, rather than being fed the information so I can devise my own beliefs.

[Ionathus]

Ultimately, the whole thing seems dissatisfying. After looking up this information, I definitely get the feeling I'm being fed what to believe, rather than being fed the information so I can devise my own beliefs.

"Being fed what to believe" is a logical necessity for any fantasy world. NOTHING fictional makes perfect sense if you push on it hard enough -- that's why we talk about "suspension of disbelief." As long as the author doesn't break their own rules willy-nilly, most people accept the big-picture concepts they've stated at face value.

To answer some of your other questions:

The gods are not in charge of the planes -- in fact, it's the reverse. The gods are created and influenced by ideas, and are at their whims in some big ways. The Prime Material plane is essentially the only farmable land in existence: the gods have to seed that plane with Mortals, who are like their crops, and the Prime Material is the only place those crops can grow.

The snarl is a being of pure chaos and is thus literally incapable of understanding strategy, patterns, or ambushes. The gods are able to trap it every single time because it never catches on to their slow and steady trap. I think you could argue that with the information we have, the Snarl is arguably nonsentient.

The rifts were small tears in reality, and the existence of 5 tears was obviously not enough to immediately jeopardize the world, so the gods let the Order of the Scribble try to patch them up. But the way I understand it, the Scribblers' method of patching them (sealing them with Gates) caused them to be more inflexible and brittle. If those Gates are shattered, the resulting openings would be much worse than the original small tears that formed naturally. Everyone in the comic seems to think that all 5 gates going KRACKAKOOM would be a system shock to the world and would prompt the Snarl escaping, whereas the rifts were a slow progression that wouldn't get its attention.

[a_flemish_guy]

"Being fed what to believe" is a logical necessity for any fantasy world. NOTHING fictional makes perfect sense if you push on it hard enough -- that's why we talk about "suspension of disbelief." As long as the author doesn't break their own rules willy-nilly, most people accept the big-picture concepts they've stated at face value.

To answer some of your other questions:

The gods are not in charge of the planes -- in fact, it's the reverse. The gods are created and influenced by ideas, and are at their whims in some big ways. The Prime Material plane is essentially the only farmable land in existence: the gods have to seed that plane with Mortals, who are like their crops, and the Prime Material is the only place those crops can grow.

The snarl is a being of pure chaos and is thus literally incapable of understanding strategy, patterns, or ambushes. The gods are able to trap it every single time because it never catches on to their slow and steady trap. I think you could argue that with the information we have, the Snarl is arguably nonsentient.

The rifts were small tears in reality, and the existence of 5 tears was obviously not enough to immediately jeopardize the world, so the gods let the Order of the Scribble try to patch them up. But the way I understand it, the Scribblers' method of patching them (sealing them with Gates) caused them to be more inflexible and brittle. If those Gates are shattered, the resulting openings would be much worse than the original small tears that formed naturally. Everyone in the comic seems to think that all 5 gates going KRACKAKOOM would be a system shock to the world and would prompt the Snarl escaping, whereas the rifts were a slow progression that wouldn't get its attention.

I see it as a patch on clothing and breaking the gates is like tearing that patch of, we can clearly see that the azure city tear is much bigger then it originally was

edit: also lucky I checked because I was under the impression that kraagor's gate would be utterly massive compared to the others but it's actually durokan's which is the largest

[BloodSquirrel]

The world is in the slow process of unraveling, and the gates only slow the process. This answers almost all of your questions:

1) The original rifts appeared a long time ago. Back then, the world was strong enough to survive until the Scribblers could seal them. Now it isn't.
2) Having an unsealed rift weakens the whole fabric of the world, leading to more rifts appear. When the Scribblers sealed the rifts, it stopped new ones from appearing- temporarily.
3) More rifts will eventually appear.
4) Eventually, they will appear too frequently to keep up with sealing them. Alternatively, the entire fabric of the world will weaken until the whole things comes apart at once.
5) Sealing a gate with four quiddities will be massively more effective, to the point where even just "spot-welding" will keep the world together for a much, much longer time (although not necessarily indefinitely- even Thor is uncertain).

Everything we know is consistent with this. Thor was very explicit in saying that the current world will unravel in time, just like the others. Nothing he said indicates that the 3-quiddity gates are new, or that they have significantly changed the situation. The major flaw in your assumptions about the rifts and the gates is that they are purely local and independent of each other, but that does not seem to be the case. An open rift weakens the entire world. A gate strengthens the entire world. Their physical locations is only minimally important.

In addition- it has been made explicitly clear that there are things we don't know yet, and that this framework, while likely not incorrect, is incomplete.

After looking up this information, I definitely get the feeling I'm being fed what to believe, rather than being fed the information so I can devise my own beliefs.

Yes... this is how storytelling works. This is a fake, made-up world, and we are being told things about it in a specific sequence and context in order to manipulate us into having a (hopefully) positive and enjoyable emotional response. We were specifically led to believe something that was false because revealing the truth caused shock, excitement, and increased our emotional investment in the conflict by raising the stakes. We were not given an impartial list of all relevant facts in the first strip because that would have been boring.

[a_flemish_guy]

The world is in the slow process of unraveling, and the gates only slow the process. This answers almost all of your questions:

1) The original rifts appeared a long time ago. Back then, the world was strong enough to survive until the Scribblers could seal them. Now it isn't.
2) Having an unsealed rift weakens the whole fabric of the world, leading to more rifts appear. When the Scribblers sealed the rifts, it stopped new ones from appearing- temporarily.
3) More rifts will eventually appear.
4) Eventually, they will appear too frequently to keep up with sealing them. Alternatively, the entire fabric of the world will weaken until the whole things comes apart at once.
5) Sealing a gate with four quiddities will be massively more effective, to the point where even just "spot-welding" will keep the world together for a much, much longer time (although not necessarily indefinitely- even Thor is uncertain).

Everything we know is consistent with this. Thor was very explicit in saying that the current world will unravel in time, just like the others. Nothing he said indicates that the 3-quiddity gates are new, or that they have significantly changed the situation. The major flaw in your assumptions about the rifts and the gates is that they are purely local and independent of each other, but that does not seem to be the case. An open rift weakens the entire world. A gate strengthens the entire world. Their physical locations is only minimally important.

In addition- it has been made explicitly clear that there are things we don't know yet, and that this framework, while likely not incorrect, is incomplete.



Yes... this is how storytelling works. This is a fake, made-up world, and we are being told things about it in a specific sequence and context in order to manipulate us into having a (hopefully) positive and enjoyable emotional response. We were specifically led to believe something that was false because revealing the truth caused shock, excitement, and increased our emotional investment in the conflict by raising the stakes. We were not given an impartial list of all relevant facts in the first strip because that would have been boring.

my understanding was that a 4-quidity world would be equally as strong as the snarl and as of such couldn't be destroyed by it effectively making the imprisonment permanent

[BloodSquirrel]

The rifts were small tears in reality, and the existence of 5 tears was obviously not enough to immediately jeopardize the world, so the gods let the Order of the Scribble try to patch them up. But the way I understand it, the Scribblers' method of patching them (sealing them with Gates) caused them to be more inflexible and brittle. If those Gates are shattered, the resulting openings would be much worse than the original small tears that formed naturally. Everyone in the comic seems to think that all 5 gates going KRACKAKOOM would be a system shock to the world and would prompt the Snarl escaping, whereas the rifts were a slow progression that wouldn't get its attention.

I don't think this is true, because the Snarl was already aware of the rifts before they were sealed (which is why it killed Soon's wife in the first place). Also, we know that rifts don't just appear uniformly and randomly across a world's lifespan- they appear when the world is near the end, and we know that "spot-welding" them with 3 quiddities doesn't work (if it did, Thor wouldn't consider having a 4th to spot-weld the rifts with a game-changer).

Some relevant quotes from Thor:

"We're up to a few thousands years each, give or take, But then rifts open"
"Sure, new rifts would form again somewhere else in a few thousand years"

So it seems pretty clear that the entire world is weakening at once, that rifts start appearing all at once when it gets weak enough, and that sealing them does more than stop the rift from growing in that physical space.

[BloodSquirrel]

my understanding was that a 4-quidity world would be equally as strong as the snarl and as of such couldn't be destroyed by it effectively making the imprisonment permanent

The problem with that is that the current world is a 3-quid, and the gods can't just add a 4th to it. It would have to be entirely re-made (which they can't do because the Dark One wouldn't survive long enough).

[Hurkyl]

"Being fed what to believe" is a logical necessity for any fantasy world. NOTHING fictional makes perfect sense if you push on it hard enough -- that's why we talk about "suspension of disbelief." As long as the author doesn't break their own rules willy-nilly, most people accept the big-picture concepts they've stated at face value.

Yes, but that's not what I'm describing. I'm quite familiar with what it's like for a setting to break down under out-of-universe analysis, and am generally practiced in hypothetical reasoning from a point of view that accepts the setting as given -- i.e. in suspending disbelief.

The point I was trying to convey is that this isn't a "Oh no, story externally inconsistent! Anyways..." -- I'm getting the dissonant feelings from the in-universe side mode of thought exclusively. (and, incidentally, my out-of-universe analysis makes me think this was intentional)

[Hurkyl]

I wasn't looking at the four-color game plan when researching my post, but to spell out the description Thor gives in #1142, by spot-welding rifts with four-color seals every few thousand years when they appear, the current world could be kept going longer than he could predict; that billions of years could be plausible.

[a_flemish_guy]

The problem with that is that the current world is a 3-quid, and the gods can't just add a 4th to it. It would have to be entirely re-made (which they can't do because the Dark One wouldn't survive long enough).

ah yes, that's true, so the current plan is to get the dark one enough power through maintenance of the current world so that when this world dissapears they can all get out and create a 4-quid world which will permanently stop the snarl

bit of a bitersweet ending, reminds me of the proteans in the mass effect trilogy, their civilisation was doomed but they managed to do enough so that the next guys around had a chance

[BloodSquirrel]

ah yes, that's true, so the current plan is to get the dark one enough power through maintenance of the current world so that when this world dissapears they can all get out and create a 4-quid world which will permanently stop the snarl

bit of a bitersweet ending, reminds me of the proteans in the mass effect trilogy, their civilisation was doomed but they managed to do enough so that the next guys around had a chance

Well, Thor is counting on millions or maybe even billions of years on this one, so it's not like he's just waiting until the Dark One can survive to pull the plug.

[Ionathus]

I don't think this is true, because the Snarl was already aware of the rifts before they were sealed (which is why it killed Soon's wife in the first place). Also, we know that rifts don't just appear uniformly and randomly across a world's lifespan- they appear when the world is near the end, and we know that "spot-welding" them with 3 quiddities doesn't work (if it did, Thor wouldn't consider having a 4th to spot-weld the rifts with a game-changer).

Some relevant quotes from Thor:

"We're up to a few thousands years each, give or take, But then rifts open"
"Sure, new rifts would form again somewhere else in a few thousand years"

So it seems pretty clear that the entire world is weakening at once, that rifts start appearing all at once when it gets weak enough, and that sealing them does more than stop the rift from growing in that physical space.

Yeah, this is a better explanation. I agree with pretty everything you said, except I'd debate whether you can call the Snarl "aware" of anything, it might be more like a single-celled organism in terms of the complexity of its behaviors -- it was just reaching through wherever it could reach to devour things, not doing so intentionally.

Yes, but that's not what I'm describing. I'm quite familiar with what it's like for a setting to break down under out-of-universe analysis, and am generally practiced in hypothetical reasoning from a point of view that accepts the setting as given -- i.e. in suspending disbelief.

The point I was trying to convey is that this isn't a "Oh no, story externally inconsistent! Anyways..." -- I'm getting the dissonant feelings from the in-universe side mode of thought exclusively. (and, incidentally, my out-of-universe analysis makes me think this was intentional)

Sorry, I didn't mean to misinterpret that. Can you please restate the part of the in-world logic that is bothering you? I'm not sure I can suss it out from the original post.

[BloodSquirrel]

The point I was trying to convey is that this isn't a "Oh no, story externally inconsistent! Anyways..." -- I'm getting the dissonant feelings from the in-universe side mode of thought exclusively. (and, incidentally, my out-of-universe analysis makes me think this was intentional)

Are you attempting to say that you believe that Thor and/or some other characters are still hiding information that will be revealed later on?

[Hurkyl]

Are you attempting to say that you believe that Thor and/or some other characters are still hiding information that will be revealed later on?

I don't expect anything quite so deceitful at this point -- it's more I think they've told the characters (and in doing so, us) what they think is important, and in doing so have left out information that would let us put everything together coherently.

[Nymrod]

Could be that between the time the Snarl was reaching out during the Order of the Scribbles adventures and now that someone offered it a Snickers and it has mellowed out a bit? Hey maybe it is even protecting its own world. What WOULD deific frustration look like anyway? Maybe there is a world of atheists and agnostics just behind the gates!

[KorvinStarmast]

In addition- it has been made explicitly clear that there are things we don't know yet, and that this framework, while likely not incorrect, is incomplete.

Yes.

Yes... this is how storytelling works. This is a fake, made-up world, and we are being told things about it in a specific sequence and context in order to manipulate us into having a (hopefully) positive and enjoyable emotional response. We were specifically led to believe something that was false because revealing the truth caused shock, excitement, and increased our emotional investment in the conflict by raising the stakes. We were not given an impartial list of all relevant facts in the first strip because that would have been boring.

Double yes. The end of the movie comes at the end, not the beginning, for a good reason. (Unless the movie is The Usual Suspects, but that's a different form of story telling than OoTS).

[Dion]

I definitely get the feeling I'm being fed what to believe, rather than being fed the information so I can devise my own beliefs.

Sigh. That’s my criticism of EVERY story, but authors never seem to listen.

How do I KNOW Hercules is the strongest man on the world? Because the author said so? “Show don’t tell”, Euripides.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sigh. That’s my criticism of EVERY story, but authors never seem to listen.

They are getting paid to write. Are you? Maybe they know what they are doing.

Spoiler: Open at your own risk

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Tumbling After

[Squire Doodad]

The problem with that is that the current world is a 3-quid, and the gods can't just add a 4th to it. It would have to be entirely re-made (which they can't do because the Dark One wouldn't survive long enough).

They'd still be able to spot-weld rifts until TDO is strong enough to make it to the next one. If a 4-quiddity gate is strong enough to completely seal a rift and in doing so reinforces the world until it breaks, then you'd get a long life in the world, at least enough for TDO to gather souls enough to survive.