Why didn't Durkon tell Redcloak that.....

[Mad Humanist]

I agree it's plausible that they will need all the goblins on an ongoing basis. The fact though is that we don't know what form the post-current-crisis will take. As it stands, only one goblin cleric in the entire world can cast 9th-level spells, so for Durkon to say that all the others are necessary too would be a lie and thus something he wouldn't say.

Okay this is progress.

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying here. But there are still some implications to think through here. If the plan works, and spot-welding works requiring a high-level Dark One cleric then Redcloak will have an important role probably for the rest of his life. This is something that Durkon did not put across. Then if the world survives long enough it will eventually outlive Redcloak and they will need a new high-level Dark One cleric. Of course there is no guarantee the goblins will have produce such a cleric, but it can only come from the goblinoids. These are long-term implications that Durkon did not manage to get across.

Of course Redcloak did not allow Durkon to go on. Also Durkon started with the disadvantage of severe ignorance of the Goblin perspective. On the other hand the negotiations had some digressions that perhaps a more skillful negotiator than Durkon would have avoided (such as Redcloak's relationship with the Dark One and just how scared the gods are of Redcloak.)

That is all without bringing the gods into it. It would of course foster relationships with at least some of the gods.

Also surely it would have enabled the Dark One to be brought into Godsmoot infrastructure. Even if the world is destroyed that is a sticking point. If they can't bring him into that structure whilst the world exists, can they do it whilst the Snark is loose? Surely they would just wait for the Dark One to die (and Hel would die too.) Or the Dark One would start creating his own world but then surely he would be consumed by the Snarl.

All of this Durkon failed to get across. Of course Durkon was not given the chance. Redcloak probably did not believe what he was saying. What Durkon was very open about that the process is bound to be messy. In this way it is analogous to human politics. People don't just recognize that a cause, one that is against their interests, is just. To call the resolution of such conflicts "messy" is an understatement.

[Psyren]

This is something that Durkon did not put across.

My point is that he couldn't, because Thor didn't tell him that was the case. You're holding him to account for not using a bargaining chip that would be entirely based on supposition, and that isn't fair.

And I doubt any negotiator could have avoided Redcloak's digressions, he's an ego on legs.

[Mad Humanist]

My point is that he couldn't, because Thor didn't tell him that was the case.

In that case I put the blame on Thor. That said I think it quite likely that Thor has not thought through all the implications. Still Thor just says to Durkon "You'll come up with something." That sounds a lot like giving Durkon some leeway to improvise to me.

Maybe they could hash all this out is Durkon could set aside enough spell slots for commune but quite frankly I can see that not happening before the end of the book. This is morning after all.

[Psyren]

In that case I put the blame on Thor. That said I think it quite likely that Thor has not thought through all the implications. Still Thor just says to Durkon "You'll come up with something." That sounds a lot like giving Durkon some leeway to improvise to me.

If Thor's plan was really hinging on Durkon of all people lying or making stuff up, then yes, blaming Thor is pretty appropriate.

[Mad Humanist]

If Thor's plan was really hinging on Durkon of all people lying or making stuff up, then yes, blaming Thor is pretty appropriate.

I was talking about Durkon drawing reasonable inferences not lying. There may be religions where using your brain is blasphemous, but Thor's does not strike me as that sort of religion.

[Psyren]

You can call it "inference" all you like, but Durkon is not going to promise something he has no way of knowing is the case, end of. Expecting him to do so is not reasonable.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I'm with Psyren 100% here. Durkon did everything he could. Overpeomising on things that he has no possible way to fulfill grossly exceeds the mandate Thor gave him.

[Kornaki]

Yeah, I'm with Psyren 100% here. Durkon did everything he could. Overpeomising on things that he has no possible way to fulfill grossly exceeds the mandate Thor gave him.

Literally he was just told ,"You need to convince Redcloak to help us". Durkon decided to do this by negotiating in good faith, but really Durkon has pretty wide latitude to say whatever words he wants as part of this. They're just words after all. I agree that is he has to lie to Redcloak to get it to happen, long term that's a bad place to be in, but failing to convince Redcloak is even worse, right?

[Peelee]

Literally he was just told ,"You need to convince Redcloak to help us". Durkon decided to do this by negotiating in good faith, but really Durkon has pretty wide latitude to say whatever words he wants as part of this. They're just words after all. I agree that is he has to lie to Redcloak to get it to happen, long term that's a bad place to be in, but failing to convince Redcloak is even worse, right?

Promising the world and then failing to deliver when Redcloak asks for any evidence whatsoever also qualifies as "failing to convince Redcloak".

[pearl jam]

Promising the moon because he thinks it would be a good solution that would make everyone happy without recognizing it to be completely unrealistic sounds a lot more like Elan than Durkon. And expecting Durkon to negotiate in bad faith knowingly because "they're just words" is completely out of his character. Even Elan, who is not as lawful as Durkon and not completely averse to bending the truth, but is, like Durkon, a good and basically honest person, wouldn't negotiate in that manner, in my opinion, nor would Roy.

Haley probably would under the right circumstances. Same for V. And Belkar certain would have and might still though it's becoming more questionable. Probably overstating that, though, I think he'd still do it.

[Psyren]

"They're just words" has to be one of the most un-Durkon things I could imagine being associated with his character.

[Mad Humanist]

There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.

[woweedd]

There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.

Well, I mean…Your points aren’t vindicated. Durkon had no reason to promise that which he doesn’t know.

[Kornaki]

I agree that Durkon lying to or deceiving Redcloak would be pretty out of character for him personally, I was just arguing that Thor's order certainly seems to permit it if Durkon deems it necessary.

[Psyren]

There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum.

Anyone can indeed make a thread

I agree that Durkon lying to or deceiving Redcloak would be pretty out of character for him personally, I was just arguing that Thor's order certainly seems to permit it if Durkon deems it necessary.

I'm not saying he physically can't, nor even that he might eventually (out of desperation etc) decide to resort to unorthodox measures. Just that he can't be blamed for not doing something so far out of left field as his opening gambit.

[Dion]

I was talking about Durkon drawing reasonable inferences not lying.

“Reasonable Inference” is the name of my Joy Division cover band.

But more importantly, I believe the “reasonable inference” from what Thor said is that mortals get nothing from the gods. No concessions, no support, no divine changes. Nothing except spells each day.

If the mortals find a way to solve this on their own, Thor is prepared to convince at least one god from each pantheon to help seal the rift.

Nothing else was offered.

[Peelee]

“Reasonable Inference” is the name of my Joy Division cover band.

Funny, it's also the name of my Foregone Conclusion cover band.

[Kornaki]

“Reasonable Inference” is the name of my Joy Division cover band.

But more importantly, I believe the “reasonable inference” from what Thor said is that mortals get nothing from the gods. No concessions, no support, no divine changes. Nothing except spells each day.

If the mortals find a way to solve this on their own, Thor is prepared to convince at least one god from each pantheon to help seal the rift.

Nothing else was offered.

This is a good point, I kind of forgot Durkon directly asked what Thor could do to help and his answer was Durkon's cleric spells.