help me with my sorcadin build

[kingcheesepants]

Hi all, I'm in a game right now and we're going through Baldur's Gate Descent Into Avernus. I've got a Warforged Paladin/Clockwork Sorcerer currently at a 2/2 split. My stats are 18 Cha and 16 each Str and Con (I rolled pretty well). The other party members are a ranger/fighter, a bard, a rouge, and a monk. So we're pretty good on damage but I'm the only one who's got the AC to stick in the front line and I'm also the only one with any AoE damage (our bard is not damaged focused in his spells and prefers control/utility like suggestion, hideous laughter, detect thoughts, and invis). I'm thinking I want to take sorcerer up to 5 and then switch back to Pally till I get my aura then do sorcerer the rest of the way. My thinking is that having at least level 3 spells is important and that having at least a decent number of sorcery points and spell slots is more important to get online quickly. The aura while extremely good can wait a little while.

So as for my questions.

#1 what metamagics do you think are best to get? Right now I'm thinking twinned and transmuted. But I can certainly see quicken and transmute instead. I know transmute isn't normally considered super great but we're fighting so many fiends and they all have resistance or immunity to fire, poison, lightning, cold. Being able to switch fireball to thunderball or cone of cold to cone of acid would be really useful.

#2 which paladin subclass should I go with? Honestly there's a lot to be said for all of them but I'm leaning Devotion at the moment. Though Redemption and Watchers also interest me.

#3 would a hexblade dip be worthwhile? I'm already stretching myself with all this multi classing but being able to use my charisma rather than my strength would be really nice and having a good ranged attack cantrip that doesn't do fire/cold would be nice (magic resistance is nearly omnipresent and thus save based cantrips are not so good and I need ranged options for when I can't get into melee distance). RP wise it would actually be trivially easy to justify (I already found a magic talking shield).

#4 What ASI/feats should I go with? I'm thinking max out Cha when I get to sorcerer 4 but I'm not sure what to do after that.

[RSP]

One option, if worried about Sorc Points and Metamagic, would be to take Metamagic Adept at Sorc 4: get two extra Metamagic choices and two more SPs.

[kingcheesepants]

One option, if worried about Sorc Points and Metamagic, would be to take Metamagic Adept at Sorc 4: get two extra Metamagic choices and two more SPs.

I probably wouldn't do that in lieu of maxing my Cha but I would def consider it for my next ASI. It would offset some of the drawbacks of the multi classing. If I took that level of Hexblade I wouldn't have to worry about increasing my strength any more. Or perhaps if I managed to get my hands on a magic belt. But I'm not sure that I'd be able to count on getting a belt of that sort, so the warlock level may be the best way.

[strangebloke]

#1 I am not a huge fan of transmute because it is usually not very efficient. The better thing to do as a sorcerer (particularly a limited one like a sorcadin) is to simply have a few options that are always good so that you don't run out of options against enemies like devils. Something like haste or bless or dragon's breath is a lot more reliable than scorching freezing ray.
Remember, using SP is basically like giving up a spell slot, so even 1 sp to transmute is a big cost. something like freezing ray looks a lot worse when you remember you're effectively giving up a slot. Still, if its thematic its not the worst thing. As long as your spell list works with your metamagic choices you're good.

Quicken won't get really good until you get extra attack which with your current line will be something like tenth level. Otherwise its 2 SP to dodge/dash/cast a cantrip. Not horrible but I its more situational.

Twinned is really good here though.

#2 They're all fine and honestly its going to take you so long to get there I wouldn't really worry about it.

#3 I wouldn't do something like that until you're at level 5-6 sorcerer and level 6 paladin. It's going to slow you down too much otherwise and most of the benefits (like getting armor and shield) aren't valid for your character right now.

#4 Maxing it out is valid ofc, getting something like warcaster or resilient:CON would be fine too. Warcaster would be my personal pick just so I could go sword and board.

[Captain Panda]

If you want to be optimal, quicken isn't an option, it's mandatory. Quickening booming blade as a sorcadin? It's just awesome.

[kingcheesepants]

#1 I am not a huge fan of transmute because it is usually not very efficient. The better thing to do as a sorcerer (particularly a limited one like a sorcadin) is to simply have a few options that are always good so that you don't run out of options against enemies like devils. Something like haste or bless or dragon's breath is a lot more reliable than scorching freezing ray.
Remember, using SP is basically like giving up a spell slot, so even 1 sp to transmute is a big cost. something like freezing ray looks a lot worse when you remember you're effectively giving up a slot. Still, if its thematic its not the worst thing. As long as your spell list works with your metamagic choices you're good.

Quicken won't get really good until you get extra attack which with your current line will be something like tenth level. Otherwise its 2 SP to dodge/dash/cast a cantrip. Not horrible but I its more situational.

Twinned is really good here though.

#2 They're all fine and honestly its going to take you so long to get there I wouldn't really worry about it.

#3 I wouldn't do something like that until you're at level 5-6 sorcerer and level 6 paladin. It's going to slow you down too much otherwise and most of the benefits (like getting armor and shield) aren't valid for your character right now.

#4 Maxing it out is valid ofc, getting something like warcaster or resilient:CON would be fine too. Warcaster would be my personal pick just so I could go sword and board.

If I don't take Transmute I'm basically consigning myself to not using damaging spells aside from Booming Blade, Thunderwave and Dragon's Breath. Which wouldn't be the end of the world sure but I'd really like to be able to fireball people and have them not be immune to it. As cap'n panda pointed out Booming Blade works with quicken which is really good but maybe not as good as twinning stuff. I'm not sure what I would twin though, probably haste and maybe dragon's breath but we don't have any pets/familiars and I'm not sure anyone else would rather be dragon breathing on people instead of doing what they'd normally be doing.

I've got a ruby of the warmage so I can already sword and board and cast spells which is what I'm doing. Res Con is something to consider but since I'm getting auras eventually anyway I'm not too worried about it.

[strangebloke]

If you want to be optimal, quicken isn't an option, it's mandatory. Quickening booming blade as a sorcadin? It's just awesome.

Three extra cantrips a day is pretty underwhelming imo, and that's all the sp he'll have until level twelve.

If I don't take Transmute I'm basically consigning myself to not using damaging spells aside from Booming Blade, Thunderwave and Dragon's Breath. Which wouldn't be the end of the world sure but I'd really like to be able to fireball people and have them not be immune to it. As cap'n panda pointed out Booming Blade works with quicken which is really good but maybe not as good as twinning stuff. I'm not sure what I would twin though, probably haste and maybe dragon's breath but we don't have any pets/familiars and I'm not sure anyone else would rather be dragon breathing on people instead of doing what they'd normally be doing.

There's also shadow blade and like a dozen others. But if you're fixated on fireball then go for it, it's not terrible busy imo inefficient.

A lot of this does depend on your encounter schedule. If your adventuring days are a lot of single encounter days, all I've said about efficiency is meaningless and quicken is king. But from what I've seen of Avernus, you'll have a lot more encounters to deal with

[Blood of Gaea]

If you want to be optimal, quicken isn't an option, it's mandatory. Quickening booming blade as a sorcadin? It's just awesome.

Honestly, quickening a cantrip is just wasting your investment. The real big bucks is quickening a leveled spell and then taking an attack action.

[kingcheesepants]

Three extra cantrips a day is pretty underwhelming imo, and that's all the sp he'll have until level twelve.


There's also shadow blade and like a dozen others. But if you're fixated on fireball then go for it, it's not terrible busy imo inefficient.

A lot of this does depend on your encounter schedule. If your adventuring days are a lot of single encounter days, all I've said about efficiency is meaningless and quicken is king. But from what I've seen of Avernus, you'll have a lot more encounters to deal with

I think you misunderstood how I'm planning to level. I'm going sorcerer till I get to sorcerer 5 (character level 7) and then switching to paladin again, not the other way around. The big thing about Fireball is that we found an item which lets us cast fireball (or wall of fire) 3 times a day from it (with a really high DC) but that property is practically useless given that we're mostly fighting fiends. Shadow Blade is pretty effective damage wise but I'm not really concerned with single target damage, we've got that covered. What I care about are AoEs that way I can efficiently deal with mobs and keep the rouge and the bard from getting pummeled by groups that are outside the melee character's zones of control. In terms of AoE damage for a sorcerer, there's dragon's breath, thunderwave (and shatter but that overlaps too much to consider taking) and eventually Fireball/lightning bolt. I might also consider something like web or slow to deal with groups, since the goal is protect the backline and not necessarily kill everything. I have realized that there's one more spell that twin would be really effective for though namely Protection From Evil and Good. Giving everyone disadvantage against 2 targets for 10 mins would be great (protection is already valuable even with the 1 target but with 2 it's fairly incredible).

Anyways I kinda feel like the 3 metamagic options are valuable enough and that I need more SP so perhaps taking metamagic adept as my first ASI and then going for maxing my cha with my 2nd would be most beneficial. But I'll start with twinned and transmute and then see after a level if I still feel like I need the 2 extra metamagic options and SP.

[Hael]

So I normally advocate lvling the sorcerer route before the aura, but that was really for spirit guardians on a divine soul sorcadin. The justification being that it helps tanking with CC, damage (mitigating the loss of extra attack) and would last 10 minutes providing a little more longevity for the limited slot situation.

So while Clockwork is amazing, the loss of that one spell, really hurts for a pure melee build. So I suppose the question is what is the build purpose of lvl 5 in Sorceror? Are you going for eg hypnotic pattern? Eg what problem are you trying to solve with lvl 3 spells and is that much better than concentrating on things like bless?

If your purpose is raw tanking and surviving, then the paladin route seems better at this point as it will lead to aura sooner and its not like you lose that many resources for shield/ae spells.

[kingcheesepants]

So I normally advocate lvling the sorcerer route before the aura, but that was really for spirit guardians on a divine soul sorcadin. The justification being that it helps tanking with CC, damage (mitigating the loss of extra attack) and would last 10 minutes providing a little more longevity for the limited slot situation.

So while Clockwork is amazing, the loss of that one spell, really hurts for a pure melee build. So I suppose the question is what is the build purpose of lvl 5 in Sorceror? Are you going for eg hypnotic pattern? Eg what problem are you trying to solve with lvl 3 spells and is that much better than concentrating on things like bless?

If your purpose is raw tanking and surviving, then the paladin route seems better at this point as it will lead to aura sooner and its not like you lose that many resources for shield/ae spells.

Mostly it's for the extra slots and sorcery points, but also I get dispel magic and protection from energy as part of being a clockwork sorcerer and I can replace one of those (protection from energy) with counterspell (or magic circle and then counterspell as my pick). Then for my actual 3rd level pick I can take either haste, hypnotic pattern or counterspell (if I took magic circle). Haste and Hypno both use concentration and perhaps aren't so much better than protection from evil and good or bless as to warrant putting off the aura. Magic circle is a bit expensive and needs to be precast but if I know there are fiends nearby and I can lure them to a location of our choosing it provides almost total protection from melee attacks for those inside and it can be used to capture fiends as well. It's situational but I can easily imagine the situation where it would be extremely useful coming up often enough to warrant taking it.

It may be the case that the 5th level of sorcerer can wait a bit though. Perhaps I'll take sorcerer to 4 (for metamagic an ASI and my 2nd level spells) and then switch to paladin and then back to sorcerer after getting the aura. Counterspell and dispel magic are both excellent to have but maybe we won't need them quite so much.

[RogueJK]

What I care about are AoEs that way I can efficiently deal with mobs

I know transmute isn't normally considered super great but we're fighting so many fiends and they all have resistance or immunity to fire, poison, lightning, cold. Being able to switch fireball to thunderball or cone of cold to cone of acid would be really useful.

Not as useful as you think. Keep in mind that the vast majority of enemies in Avernus are Fiends, and nearly all Fiends have Magic Resistance. So they're likely to make their saves.

It's still handy to have an AoE blast spell on tap, because you'll run into the occasional mob of non-Magic-Resistant enemies. Or for when you have enough Fiends in tight formation that it makes it worthwhile to blast them with an AoE, even knowing they're only going to take half damage. But I wouldn't load up on them like you're planning, nor would I base a Metamagic pick around them.

If you go with something like Shatter for that purpose of a backup AoE, you wouldn't need to spend a metamagic pick on Transmute, as it's already Thunder damage. Plus, Shatter damages objects/walls/etc., so it has some creative out of combat utility there. (This greater versatility is nice on a Sorcerer, thanks to their fewer spells known than other full casters.)

I might also consider something like web or slow to deal with groups, since the goal is protect the backline and not necessarily kill everything.

Again, nearly every enemy in Avernus will have Magic Resistance. This makes save-based control or debuff spells significantly less useful in this particular campaign. Even more so than the AoE blast spells, which at least do half damage on a save. With Magic Resistance, "Save-or-Suck" will rarely result in "Suck", and you'll just be wasting your actions and spell slots.

Then for my actual 3rd level pick I can take ... hypnotic pattern

Hypnotic Pattern is a fantastic choice in a traditional campaign, but a poor choice for Avernus. See above for the issue with Save-Or-Suck spells against enemies with Magic Resistance.

I can tell you really want to play the traditional "blasty"/"controlling" Sorcerer, and I hate to break it to you, but... This ain't the campaign for that. (Thanks to Magic Resistance.)

So don't bother with AoE/debuff/control spells. Just grab Shatter as a backup AoE option, and then focus your Sorcerer spells known on party buffs (Aid/Haste/Protection from Evil/Protection from Energy/Fly/Enhance Ability/etc.) and personal defensive options (like Shield/Absorb Elements). Don't forget stuff like Bless from your Paladin spells too.

And keep in mind that you can swap out your Clockwork subclass spells for any Abjuration or Transmutation spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock list. So you could swap in some options that Sorcerers don't usually get access to, like Armor of Agathys and Magic Circle. (Magic Circle is potentially very handy at a few points in this campaign, when you have the time to prep for a pending fight against Fiends in a fixed location.)

The best way you can protect the back line as a Sorcadin in Avernus is through party buffs, by shoring up the front lines with melee, and by putting down enemies quickly.

It may be the case that the 5th level of sorcerer can wait a bit though. Perhaps I'll take sorcerer to 4 (for metamagic an ASI and my 2nd level spells) and then switch to paladin and then back to sorcerer after getting the aura. Counterspell and dispel magic are both excellent to have but maybe we won't need them quite so much.

You definitely want Paladin 6 sooner rather than later. The Aura is that great, especially in a campaign like Avernus with a lot of save-based enemy abilities.

our bard is not damaged focused in his spells and prefers control/utility like suggestion, hideous laughter, detect thoughts, and invis)

Your Bard is gonna have a bad time if they're focusing on control spells... We're back to the problem with Save-Or-Suck spells like Suggestion/Hideous Laughter against enemies with Magic Resistance. (Especially Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which allows additional saves every round *and* every time they take damage... So even if it happens to stick the first time, it's unlikely to stay stuck after subsequent saving throws, all made at Advantage.)

what metamagics do you think are best to get?

Twinned and Quickened. Hands down. Twinning single-person Concentration buffs is great, especially with something like Protection from Evil in this particular campaign. And Quickened Spell lets you cast a spell and still make an attack that turn.

would a hexblade dip be worthwhile? I'm already stretching myself with all this multi classing but being able to use my charisma rather than my strength would be really nice and having a good ranged attack cantrip that doesn't do fire/cold would be nice

No. Your STR is already high enough that you don't need CHA-based melee, and you don't need Eldritch Blast to have a decent backup ranged cantrip. You already have access to that as a Sorcerer with Chill Touch. It does Necrotic damage, has the same range as EB, and it uses an attack roll instead of a save so Magic Resistance isn't an issue.

What ASI/feats should I go with?

Next ASI, I'd take Warcaster, to help keep Concentration on your buffs, for Booming Blade Opportunity attacks to dissuade enemies from moving past you to attack the backliners, and to let you wield weapon+shield and still cast your Sorcerer spells. Then at the next ASI, boost STR to 18 instead of maxing CHA. You won't need to max STR/CHA in order to be effective. 18/18 is great.

If you get a 3rd ASI (which you probably won't since Avernus tops out at Level 13ish and you're planning to go Paladin 6/Sorcerer 7), Inspiring Leader is a good choice there.

[Keravath]

I'm not sure that leveling up sorcerer first is really the best approach.

As mentioned, you are fighting a lot of fiends. Many of these have damage immunities as well as magic resistance. This will may make it challenging for you to land your spells as a sorcerer. In addition, sorcerers that start with 2 paladin often intend to use booming blade + smite as their primary attack mechanism. However, a level 5 sorcerer has 5 sorcery points which is a total of two and a half quickened spells/long rest. After that, they have to convert spell slots to sorcery points which then conflicts with the usage of spell slots for smites.

You also mentioned that there aren't that many front line characters in your party. You may want to consider playing into that by going to paladin 6 first for extra attack and the aura. The aura bonus to saves might come in very handy. In addition, the bard in your party may be able to cover party support spell casting. A lore bard can even pick up counterspell at level 6 and with jack of all trades is better at it than other characters. If you can acquire a magical weapon, the extra attack option would make the attacks more attractive and leave any extra spell slots from your sorcerer levels available for smites. You also have some ranged cantrip options from the sorcerer side (though firebolt is likely not a good choice in this campaign).

One thing to keep in mind though is that no matter which approach you choose, the character is likely to feel a bit underpowered for levels 5 and 6 compared to the rest of the party. You won't get extra attack or 3rd level spells until level 7.

[kingcheesepants]

Hmm you guys make some good points. I'll probably take sorcerer to 3 just so I can pick up metamagic and a couple 2nd level spells, then go to paladin 6 then sorcerer again till 5 and depending on how I'm feeling when the time comes either continue in sorcerer or go back to paladin. (I might go to sorcerer 4 initially so I can get an ASI but we'll see). I'll go Devotion both because it feels like it fits my character best and because the channel divinity options are both excellent especially against fiends and charm immunity is really good too (if I take pal 7).

Our bard is an eloquence bard and therefore can unsettle enemies and give them a big negative to their saves, coupled with my ability to react and make them lose their advantage with my clockwork ability we can usually make fairly sure of having an enemy fail a save. But it only works against one guy one time and therefore isn't the best for something like fireball or spells with repeated saves. But still considering that I already have a magic item that lets me cast fireball (and wall of fire) it seems like a waste not to use it against groups of enemies. Considering that the DC is 21 I'm pretty sure that at least some enemies will whiff the save even with magic resistance and even if they make the save and take half damage that's still something like 15 damage per guy and if they're the typical mob that can either kill them or put them in 1 hit range. Killing 4 guys with one move is really useful. But if they're immune to fire then it's just a waste of an action rather than really good. So despite everyone's misgivings I think I'll stick with transmute and twin and then use sorcerous versatility or an ASI to switch to (or pick up) quicken if I feel that it's needed.

As for my other spells though I'll probably stick to mostly buffs, defense and utility and switch out green flame blade with chill touch.

[Crushgrip]

Hi all, I'm in a game right now and we're going through Baldur's Gate Descent Into Avernus. I've got a Warforged Paladin/Clockwork Sorcerer currently at a 2/2 split. My stats are 18 Cha and 16 each Str and Con (I rolled pretty well). The other party members are a ranger/fighter, a bard, a rouge, and a monk. So we're pretty good on damage but I'm the only one who's got the AC to stick in the front line and I'm also the only one with any AoE damage (our bard is not damaged focused in his spells and prefers control/utility like suggestion, hideous laughter, detect thoughts, and invis). I'm thinking I want to take sorcerer up to 5 and then switch back to Pally till I get my aura then do sorcerer the rest of the way. My thinking is that having at least level 3 spells is important and that having at least a decent number of sorcery points and spell slots is more important to get online quickly. The aura while extremely good can wait a little while.

So as for my questions.

#1 what metamagics do you think are best to get? Right now I'm thinking twinned and transmuted. But I can certainly see quicken and transmute instead. I know transmute isn't normally considered super great but we're fighting so many fiends and they all have resistance or immunity to fire, poison, lightning, cold. Being able to switch fireball to thunderball or cone of cold to cone of acid would be really useful.

#2 which paladin subclass should I go with? Honestly there's a lot to be said for all of them but I'm leaning Devotion at the moment. Though Redemption and Watchers also interest me.

#3 would a hexblade dip be worthwhile? I'm already stretching myself with all this multi classing but being able to use my charisma rather than my strength would be really nice and having a good ranged attack cantrip that doesn't do fire/cold would be nice (magic resistance is nearly omnipresent and thus save based cantrips are not so good and I need ranged options for when I can't get into melee distance). RP wise it would actually be trivially easy to justify (I already found a magic talking shield).

#4 What ASI/feats should I go with? I'm thinking max out Cha when I get to sorcerer 4 but I'm not sure what to do after that.

Question for ya. What type of Sorcadin are ya? Sword + board or 2H?

As other have stated (and I would agree), I think going more Pally first would be better if you are going to be the front line (tank) of the group. Hit Points matter at lower levels and trading that d10 for a d6 in HP's for that many levels will really reduce your ability to survive, especially without any true healers in the group.

#1: Quicken/twinned + whatever. I do love the flavor and damage type altering of the transmute.

#2: I like Devotion for the Turn the Unholy. I am currently playing a level 5 Dwarven Sorcadin in Dungeon of the Mad Mage (after finishing Dragon Heist) and have only used the Sacred Weapon once but to great effect. Tough to skip that first round of combat imbuing your weapon. Looks like you have a bunch of damage dealers in the party so I would go with a subclass that can either do crowd control or help with defense. But the rule of cool always supersedes this!

#3: I don't think so. will really dilute your progression.

#4: Depends on your build and what you really want to go for. For example, my guy is a 2H glass cannon'ish burner. I went for Great Weapon Master and the Devotion Subclass as the + to attack (from Sacred Weapon) really offsets the GWM. Warcaster is awesome for S+B but really whatever you want.

Have fun and good luck in Avernus!