What’s Loki’s plan for Hel

[theinsulabot]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works.

As I understand it, Loki intends to follow Thor’s plan at least as far as having the gates spot welded with red cloak at least long enough for the dark one to absorb enough “food” that he can survive the jump to the next world. Presumably Loki does not intend to follow Thor’s plan of seeing how long the OOTS world can go since Hel would almost certainly starve in that case.

But what does he intend to do? About all I can think of which fits his personality and goals is he intends some kind of a backstab later, wherein after the dark one has been strengthened, he somehow engineers the destruction of the world himself so that Hel can eat all the dwarves and survive the jump.

Anyway, thoughts, things I missed?

[Fyraltari]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works.

As I understand it, Loki intends to follow Thor’s plan at least as far as having the gates spot welded with red cloak at least long enough for the dark one to absorb enough “food” that he can survive the jump to the next world. Presumably Loki does not intend to follow Thor’s plan of seeing how long the OOTS world can go since Hel would almost certainly starve in that case.

But what does he intend to do? About all I can think of which fits his personality and goals is he intends some kind of a backstab later, wherein after the dark one has been strengthened, he somehow engineers the destruction of the world himself so that Hel can eat all the dwarves and survive the jump.

Anyway, thoughts, things I missed?

Either he considers the death of his daughter an acceptable loss to ensure safety from the Snarl or he hopes that she can hang in there long enough for the Dark One to build the necessary reserves to survive the interorbs period, at which point he'll try to convince the other gods to blow-up this cliché-riddled world so they can make one that's actually good (in his opinion) and make that one last forever.

Not that these are mutually exclusive.

[KorvinStarmast]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works.

He hasn't said, and given his generally chaotic nature, and the fact that she's in the pickle she is in thanks to his own shenanigans, I'm gonna drop a few quataloos on "has no coherent plan at this point" other than if the world does end and Hel does not make the transition, he's coming after Thor with guns blazing. (Of course he would, he's a fire god, right?)
Beyond that, this is the story of The Order of the Stick not the story of Shenanigans Among the Northern Pantheon Whatever plan he may, or may not, have is 'off screen' material for this story.

[Psyren]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.

(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now, so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

*We're also assuming she would starve. She's not looking too hot right now, but there's still only a chance she doesn't make it if the world gets unmade.

[theinsulabot]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.

(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now, so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

*We're also assuming she would starve. She's not looking too hot right now, but there's still only a chance she doesn't make it if the world gets unmade.

I hadn’t thought about the high priest thing, but I don’t think further support from this world is going to do it, seeing as how she is already fading out.

[RatElemental]

She was fading out after ceding a century's worth of what souls she did have. If I threw up every meal I'd eaten for the last day, let alone year, I'd probably not be feeling too hot that moment either.

[Fyraltari]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.

But can she go on without Worship? Getting enough food* is important, but so's a balanced diet.

(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now, so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

[Psyren]

But can she go on without Worship? Getting enough food* is important, but so's a balanced diet.

She's lasted this long without a proper High Priest. I'd say that now that she has one, her odds are a bit better.

Sure she has to protect it, but that's about the same as where she was.

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

None of those were powerful enough to speak at the godsmoot before. (They weren't vampires either, which are considerably harder to kill than wights IIRC.)

[Forum Explorer]

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

Sure, but those were low level scrubs. Like a ghoul that's level 1 or something.

These are higher level vampires that are significantly harder to kill and thus, face significantly fewer adventurers. Combine that with having a priority on survival and this vampire cleric could go on to spawn lots of Vampire Spawns and other intelligent undead, and maybe go around founding a few cults to Hel.

Sure, she'll likely eventually be caught and killed, but the goal would be to create some successors so there is always a trickle of Worship going to Hel.

[Fyraltari]

She's lasted this long without a proper High Priest. I'd say that now that she has one, her odds are a bit better.

We know from Odin that the gods are still affected by the Belief they received in the last word. It seems to le she's been living off or her "divine fat" for lack of a better term for a while.

None of those were powerful enough to speak at the godsmoot before.

We don't know that the Frontarch is either. She's never had to cast Summon Proxy which is where the level requirement comes from, if memory serves.

In any case.

(They weren't vampires either, which are considerably harder to kill than wights IIRC.)

Sure, but those were low level scrubs. Like a ghoul that's level 1 or something.

These are higher level vampires that are significantly harder to kill and thus, face significantly fewer adventurers.

That just sounds like she'd attract more powerful adventurers. Maybe as a random encounter even. Or one (or several) of the High Priest she's stuck with could decide to go vampire hunting once they're back home and the truce stops applying.

Combine that with having a priority on survival

You think her previous high priests didn't prioritise survival?

[theinsulabot]

She was fading out after ceding a century's worth of what souls she did have. If I threw up every meal I'd eaten for the last day, let alone year, I'd probably not be feeling too hot that moment either.

Loki specifically said “if it’s to late and she starves…” which heavily implies her problem is due to her uneven diet, and it’s longitudinal vs something just due to her cutting lose some souls at that moment

[brian 333]

Let's not forget Curly The Brave, who boldly charged in a retrograde maneuver the moment Durkon defeated Greg.

Due to Roy's presence there were likely no Tinkertown vampires and, while possible, vamping one or more of the Mechane's crew might have been noticed. But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north? For that matter, were there innocent bystanders in the hall who were sent on unknown missions before the fight because they were too low level to help in the fight?

There may be any number of unknowm spawn and vampires scattering across The North, filled with the evangelical spirit and vampire juice.

[The MunchKING]

Let's not forget Curly The Brave, who boldly charged in a retrograde maneuver the moment Durkon defeated Greg.

Due to Roy's presence there were likely no Tinkertown vampires and, while possible, vamping one or more of the Mechane's crew might have been noticed. But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north?

Probably not that many. In one of the flashbacks, don't they say they burn bodies so they can't rise as undead? Yup. there it is. Well not that specific logic is stated, but it works for that too.

[Psyren]

We know from Odin that the gods are still affected by the Belief they received in the last word. It seems to le she's been living off or her "divine fat" for lack of a better term for a while.

Oh I'm not saying that if nothing changes, she won't be in dire straits. But with the world existing she has a chance to turn things around, that she wouldn't if the gods have to pull the plug and hide until the Snarl calms down again. (Plus, as I said earlier, Loki is highly likely to help her once the Snarl is taken care of.)

We don't know that the Frontarch is either. She's never had to cast Summon Proxy which is where the level requirement comes from, if memory serves.

True, but at the very least, I have no doubt there's some godsmoot rule that she's allowed to get home (wherever that may be since she's not a dwarf) unmolested. Otherwise, that gathering would become a bloodbath the moment it ends. Furthermore, I doubt many (any?) of the clerics at the moot were low-level.

That just sounds like she'd attract more powerful adventurers. Maybe as a random encounter even. Or one (or several) of the High Priest she's stuck with could decide to go vampire hunting once they're back home and the truce stops applying.

Eh, Malack no doubt attracted plenty of powerful adventurers too, and he wasn't even Nergal's high priest. I imagine it's possible for a vampire to reach a level where thy can defend themselves from rando adventurers at least.

[danielxcutter]

Even considering vampires really do have a good argument for killing them on sight if possible in this setting, that mindset in general is like half the reason the goblin situation’s deteriorated this much in the first place so… yeah, not a fan.

If you’re going to kill something evil, do it because they’re an evil bastard on their own merits damnit.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, Malack no doubt attracted plenty of powerful adventurers too, and he wasn't even Nergal's high priest. I imagine it's possible for a vampire to reach a level where thy can defend themselves from rando adventurers at least.

Random, sure, an dthen again I'm pretty sure 90% of that is staying out of the spotlight. But let's say Sunna's High Priest decides that a Church of Hel staffed with undead isn't a thing he wants to see in the world and once the Godsmoot truce is over he tasks the clerics under his command (or leads the charge himself) with nipping it in the bud. The Frontarchess doesn't even have a coffin to retreat too.

[Morty]

My impression is that Loki doesn't really have a plan. He's choosing to prioritize a chance to deal with the Snarl over Hel's well-being and hoping they can work something out afterwards.

[hroþila]

I think the text is pretty clear on this point. Clearly, Hel is in real danger of not making it. Also just as clearly, it's not a given that Hel will die and, she could make it. Clearly.

[brian 333]

I think the text is pretty clear on this point. Clearly, Hel is in real danger of not making it. Also just as clearly, it's not a given that Hel will die and, she could make it. Clearly.

So you're saying it's unambiguously uncertain.

[Dion]

So you're saying it's unambiguously uncertain.

Ostensibly.

[Emanick]

Ostensibly.

Not sure about this, personally. Is it really ostensibly unambiguously uncertain?

[Dion]

Not sure about this, personally. Is it really ostensibly unambiguously uncertain?

Undoubtedly.

[Psyren]

My impression is that Loki doesn't really have a plan. He's choosing to prioritize a chance to deal with the Snarl over Hel's well-being and hoping they can work something out afterwards.

Agreed - and with the world still existing he (and she) will have a lot more to work with than if they're cowering in the Astral waiting for the Snarl to stop rampaging.

Even considering vampires really do have a good argument for killing them on sight if possible in this setting, that mindset in general is like half the reason the goblin situation’s deteriorated this much in the first place so… yeah, not a fan.

If you’re going to kill something evil, do it because they’re an evil bastard on their own merits damnit.

I don't think we can really equate the plight of the goblins to undead though, even intelligent ones, and especially ones that survive by feeding on the living. Pre-emptively smiting those isn't the same as going after goblins, or even chromatic dragons.

Random, sure, an dthen again I'm pretty sure 90% of that is staying out of the spotlight. But let's say Sunna's High Priest decides that a Church of Hel staffed with undead isn't a thing he wants to see in the world and once the Godsmoot truce is over he tasks the clerics under his command (or leads the charge himself) with nipping it in the bud. The Frontarchess doesn't even have a coffin to retreat too.

Yes but again, with the Snarl taken care of it's likely that Hel will get some allies (Loki and Thrym at a minimum, possibly some of the other monster deities as well) that her church didn't have previously.

[SlashDash]

I hadn’t thought about the high priest thing, but I don’t think further support from this world is going to do it, seeing as how she is already fading out.

Unless she gets to recover fast. Note what Hel herself said : Vampires breed fast and from one there could be many others.

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.
The other being that as noted above, a big part of this story is to stop looking at beings that appear in the monster manual through bigotted eyes.

V learned that about Dragons. Redcloak teaches us about goblins.
Heck, Serini teaches us that about all her monstrous friends.

I fail to see vampires being different by the end of the story. As the poster above said, let them be judged by their own action rather than their undead status.

But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north?

Also to be noted - we don't know how many vampires survived in the godsmoot. Curley isn't the only one left. Hel still has "the one in the front" at the godsmoot.

We don't know if everyone else died at that battle or even if there are those that never entered the battle.

Hel could be building up her forces



Though I'm still betting on Curley showing up at the north pole later to try and help Xykon. There's probably a reason why she hasn't shown up yet. Hel is making sure she has enough other vampires to survive.

[RatElemental]

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.
The other being that as noted above, a big part of this story is to stop looking at beings that appear in the monster manual through bigotted eyes.

V learned that about Dragons. Redcloak teaches us about goblins.
Heck, Serini teaches us that about all her monstrous friends.

I fail to see vampires being different by the end of the story. As the poster above said, let them be judged by their own action rather than their undead status.

While this may indeed be a major theme of the story, every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy. We've also seen that vampires by simply existing violate the natural order by disrupting the disposition of the souls of their hosts. While I do think a vampire genuinely becoming good is possible, unless some method of releasing the soul trapped inside of them without destroying them is found, them continuing to hold the soul of their host hostage is a pretty big issue.

[hamishspence]

every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy.

Mr "Test of the Heart" springs to mind as an undead that was inteliigent, not a tool - and not an irredeemably evil threat to all, either.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html

Besides that onscreen example, there's a ghost elf (and, by their powers, not a Deathless but a true undead ghost) in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that Hinjo is willing to coexist with - judging them by their deeds and not their creature type.

[Lord Torath]

Mr "Test of the Heart" springs to mind as an undead that was inteliigent, not a tool - and not an irredeemably evil threat to all, either.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html

Besides that onscreen example, there's a ghost elf (and, by their powers, not a Deathless but a true undead ghost) in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that Hinjo is willing to coexist with - judging them by their deeds and not their creature type.

I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire. The ghost is just the spirit of a person who died that's not yet ready to move on to the outer planes. Vampires are evil spirits that imprison the soul of the person whose body they're occupying, and that right there is pretty evil all by itself.

They also feed off sentient beings (not sure how evil this is - most omnivores and carnivores feed on sentient beings and I don't know that vampires need to feed off sapients - the Ex Exarch fed off Little Whiskers, and I don't know that he could be considered sapient. However, I don't know if he got any 'nutrients' from that feeding, or if it was merely intended to take Little Whiskers out of the fight), and the process does not at all seem to be enjoyable.

[Fyraltari]

I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire. The ghost is just the spirit of a person who died that's not yet ready to move on to the outer planes. Vampires are evil spirits that imprison the soul of the person whose body they're occupying, and that right there is pretty evil all by itself.

It's not their fault though.

They also feed off sentient beings (not sure how evil this is - most omnivores and carnivores feed on sentient beings and I don't know that vampires need to feed off sapients - the Ex Exarch fed off Little Whiskers, and I don't know that he could be considered sapient. However, I don't know if he got any 'nutrients' from that feeding, or if it was merely intended to take Little Whiskers out of the fight), and the process does not at all seem to be enjoyable.

It's also much more easily reversible than usual way of feeding of living beings.

[hamishspence]

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire.

The point is that ghosts and vampires are both kinds of undead.

I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

The one in the nurse costume might have been a regular zombie. Those are "tools". But the "Cryptkeeper knockoff" seemed genuinely intelligent.

Given that the Oracle is not a spellcaster (using wands as a substitute) it is IMO quite plausible that the doctor is an employee rather than created/controlled by one of his wands (or by someone else and then donated to him).

[SlashDash]

While this may indeed be a major theme of the story, every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy.

And all the goblins we saw were evil until the ones we saw that weren't.

While I do think a vampire genuinely becoming good is possible

They don't need to be good. They can still be allowed to walk around freely, so long as they don't actually commit any wrong doing. Roy had no problem letting Greg join the party under the assumption he doesn't do any particular evil deed.

People in real life have all sorts of dark desires, but as long as they actually don't act upon them, that's fine. Whether people behave because they have a moral compass or it's because they are afraid of getting caught and facing the penal system doesn't matter - as long as you don't actually commit any crime you're fine.

Innocent until proven guilty and all of that.

They also feed off sentient beings

So? We saw how Greg fed off the party and simply cast restoration on them.
It wasn't that big of a deal.