What’s Loki’s plan for Hel

[Reboot]

So? We saw how Greg fed off the party and simply cast restoration on them.
It wasn't that big of a deal.

Restoration's a 4th level spell. You need to be a 7th level cleric to have a 4th level spell slot. Most clerics don't get that high.

[Rogan]

They don't need to be good. They can still be allowed to walk around freely, so long as they don't actually commit any wrong doing. Roy had no problem letting Greg join the party under the assumption he doesn't do any particular evil deed.

But Roy didn't know that Greg was holding Durkon hostage. As far as we know, every vampire has a prisoner, the original soul. This is a wrong doing and a reason to destroy vampires on sight.

It might be possible for a vampire to have a kind of symbiotic relationship with the host. Or perhaps there is a way to set the soul free to go to the afterlife without destroying the vampire. In those cases, allowing the vampire to exist as long as he doesn't commit a crime might be fine.

[Peelee]

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff. And if gods could just change things on a whim, Thor would still have red hair, Odin would be of sound mind, and dwarves wouldn't think trees are their mortal enemies.

Not gonna happen.

[Cazero]

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff.

Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament? Remember who said Loki teaches that.

[RatElemental]

Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament? Remember who said Loki teaches that.

She also turned undead despite Loki almost certainly being an evil god, so the giant needed some kind of way to justify how that happened. Summoned monsters are great cannon fodder too, and anarchic creatures do indeed come from limbo. You're talking like she's incapable of saying things that are true.

[Peelee]

Remember who said Loki teaches that.

She also turned undead despite Loki almost certainly being an evil god

Aye. Could be summed up in one word, even: corroboration. Plus, it's not massively self-serving, so much less reason to doubt to start with.

Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament?

What does her current predicament have to do with anything? We know gods can't change on a whim against the mortals beliefs.

[SlashDash]

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff. And if gods could just change things on a whim, Thor would still have red hair, Odin would be of sound mind, and dwarves wouldn't think trees are their mortal enemies.

Not gonna happen.

Loki is the best loop hole finder from the gods we've seen so far.
He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.

Parents think a lot of stuff their kids do is dumb or gross. But they (hopefully) tolerate it on occasion for their kids sake.

Or of course get someone else to do it for him.

[Peelee]

Loki is the best loop hole finder from the gods we've seen so far.
He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.

How so? Seems like Thor is clearly better.

He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.

Anything to back this up?

[brian 333]

And all the goblins we saw were evil until the ones we saw that weren't.

When did we see some that weren't?

In our world we don't have Detect Evil spells. In the OotSverse Evil is not a product of how one is born, but is a product of what one has done. For a creature to show as Evil it has to have committed Evil acts.

Goblins don't have to be Evil, but if one is, it has earned that status by doing Evil deeds.

The subsequent argument presented a case that supported the unLawfulness of killing Evil creatures who were not caught committing crimes.

In OotS, Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, are not inherited, (or assigned by the Monster Manuel.) They are earned. And we may never see the deeds that earned them. Do we ever see how Roy earned his Lawful Goodness?

[Larsaan]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear.

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

[hamishspence]

Given the existence of non-evil ghosts -and the fact that even Redcloak appears to only specifically be talking about corporeal undead:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

"bits of skin and bone and dark energy, glued together by magic into the shape of a man"

it seems clear that extrapolating from Redcloak's claims to "All undead, in-universe, are exactly as Redcloak claims", is IMO likely to be inaccurate.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear.

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

When Redclaok's talking in that scene, he's missing an eye because his so-called "puppet" who

Spoiler: SoD

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teixked him into murdering his beloved brother and then made him raise that brother's corpse into undeath because that was easier than face his own guilt

won't let him regrow one.

I don't think this scene tells us as much about the undead as it tells us about Redcloak's psyche.

[danielxcutter]

I think the precise method of killing her also says more about Redcloak than the undead itself - at that point, he really could have coup-de-graced her, or otherwise used some spell to kill her quickly.

Oh sure, Tsukiko was a crazy bitch, but let's be realistic, if he was being 100% pragmatic he wouldn't have had killed her like that. And frankly, Command Undead is more like an advanced Domination effect than anything.

[hroþila]

When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

[Fyraltari]

Also it's a rare kind of author who uses thr villain as their mouthpiece.

[danielxcutter]

When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

Yeah, the big reason he specified undead is really because that’s Tsukiko’s schtick.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear.

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

I think both can be true - that undead are presumptively dangerous to the living, but also that Redcloak is deluded when he thinks controlling them is the best means available to achieve his ends.

When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

Living control spells are far more limited though. Part of the point of the Tsukiko scene wasn't to show you that Redcloak's worldview of undead was 100% right, rather it's to show you that undead control doesn't have any of the safety clauses (like actions against a subject's nature) that the living versions do. That alone makes assuming undead autonomy should be on par with that of the living to be an inherently more dangerous stance to hold.

Concluding therefore that destroying even undead who aren't actively threatening someone can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

[hamishspence]

To be fair, many cleric domains grant similar levels of control for non-undead.

An Earth Domain cleric can control creatures with the Earth subtype. Same with other "elemental domains".
A Plant Domain cleric can control creatures with the Plant type - even intelligent ones.
A Scalykind Domain cleric can control creatures with the Reptilian subtype.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, many cleric domains grant similar levels of control for non-undead.

An Earth Domain cleric can control creatures with the Earth subtype. Same with other "elemental domains".
A Plant Domain cleric can control creatures with the Plant type - even intelligent ones.
A Scalykind Domain cleric can control creatures with the Reptilian subtype.

Clearly ecological devastion can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

[Psyren]

Clearly ecological devastion can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

What ecosystem are undead part of? What negative impact would destroying all of them have on the world?

[Fyraltari]

What ecosystem are undead part of? What negative impact would destroying all of them have on the world?

That's not a one-to-one analogy, I'll grant you.

[Dion]

What ecosystem are undead part of?

I believe undead are responsible for overripe bananas. So it’s mostly the banana bread ecology.

[RatElemental]

I believe undead are responsible for overripe bananas. So it’s mostly the banana bread ecology.

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

[Dion]

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

That’s only true if you consider a sentient mosquitos who can turn you into a mosquito an apex predator.

(I mean, sure… mosquitos kill more people than all the other animals put together, even including other people! So I guess they’re apex?)

[Psyren]

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually. And if you got rid of every last one of them, the real "apex predators" like Dragons and Mindflayers would still exist and actually reach an equilibrium.

Undead are a pestilence that, if it weren't for faiths specifically designed to artificially keep them in check, would have overrun the living long since.

[Peelee]

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually.

Is it too trite at this point if I pull out humans as analogous here?

[The MunchKING]

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually.

Apex predators don't INTENTIONALLY self regulate, except maybe spreading out further if they're looking for food. They just starve to death if they over consume the supply.

Likewise, it's implied wraiths and other things that need to eat can lose their vital force.

[RatElemental]

My mistake, forgot to make my previous post blue.

[Psyren]

Is it too trite at this point if I pull out humans as analogous here?

The planet will survive us, one way or another

Likewise, it's implied wraiths and other things that need to eat can lose their vital force.

They don't starve actually; the craving builds to the point that they'll lose control the next time they're faced with whatever it is they eat, but they can't actually die. Nor can they truly be sated. Both are pretty massive problems for an ecosystem without outside intervention, which is exactly what clerics represent.

[RatElemental]

They don't starve actually; the craving builds to the point that they'll lose control the next time they're faced with whatever it is they eat, but they can't actually die. Nor can they truly be sated. Both are pretty massive problems for an ecosystem without outside intervention, which is exactly what clerics represent.

Not entirely true. The Libris Mortis described some undead as having diet dependencies. While they couldn't be destroyed by being deprived for too long, they could enter a state of permanent (until somehow fed) immobility if they went long enough without feeding.