A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    We do know from either the bonus Dragon Strips or the bonus OtOoPCs strips (I forget which) that Tomes do exist in OotS at least

    EDIT: Or was it bonus DCF?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-10-29 at 03:32 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    We do know from either the bonus Dragon Strips or the bonus OtOoPCs strips (I forget which) that Tomes do exist in OotS at least

    EDIT: Or was it bonus DCF?
    There's evidence for that available online and for free.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Where are you getting that? The numbers I'm seeing from Google searching are a bit over 1,000 pounds. There's a BBC article about hysterical strength which looks at claims that people have lifted 3,000 pounds, without citing sources. It points out that the reality seem to be about shifting vehicles from pinning accident victims, which would involve lever action rather than simple lifting.
    "The Guinness Book of World Records (1985 edition) lists his feat of lifting 6,270 lb (2,840 kg) in a back lift as "the greatest weight ever raised by a human being"."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_A...(weightlifter)

    I see that later Guinness books don't recognise this because "while credible" it was not done under sufficiently rigorous conditions. As such the current world record is 5,340 pounds - still more than a str 29 character can lift under the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    To be exact, 6th level is where "superhuman" begins:

    https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress...expectations-2
    So that article is an opinion piece seeking to refute a post someone made on a forum that the 3.5 system is laughably unrealistic. The analysis of strength focuses on the ability to break a door (this is based on estimates by the author about how hard he thinks it would actually be) and on an average person's carrying capacity (based on the description in the forum post of how difficult that was). It contains no examination of lifting strength, which is surprising given that we have definite numbers for both real life and DnD limitations.

    The author may or may not be correct in his general conclusion that ability scores generally model low level characters - I haven't looked closely. But there are exceptions - strength is clearly one. Intelligence is another where real world people can exceed low level DnD characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If you had meant base rather than total then that's fine. I was talking about total.

    In 3.5, you should be aiming for 34-38 in your primary stat by 20 generally.
    Yeah, we are talking about different things. I must say that base str seems more relevant than enhanced str to me. Not many people would say that Usain Bolt is not the fastest man in the world because people can ride a bicycle more quickly than he can run.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-29 at 06:40 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Those lifts are one offs in controlled conditions though. The d&d system doesn’t really allow for that ‘pushing’.
    Meanwhile epic Str characters can carry heavy burdens for hours. And that’s not counting the application of that Str to NPCs and animals/monsters. Specifically, mounts for Large/Giant size characters.
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Those lifts are one offs in controlled conditions though. The d&d system doesn’t really allow for that ‘pushing’.
    Meanwhile epic Str characters can carry heavy burdens for hours. And that’s not counting the application of that Str to NPCs and animals/monsters. Specifically, mounts for Large/Giant size characters.
    The Dnd system does allow for it.

    What high strength DnD characters can carry for hours is represented by their carrying capacity. The players handbook also specifies what a character can lift above their head, and what they can merely lift off the ground.

    I am comparing the 6000 pound lift to what a character can lift off the ground. Here's how the player's handbook describes it:
    A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load
    off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While
    overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to
    AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
    Not sure what your point is about animals and monsters? The real world has big animals like elephants which are (in real life) incredibly strong,

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    The point is that horses are much more "adapted to carry things on their backs" than other animals are - but that D&D doesn't account for this.

    An elephant might be able to tow several tons - but put several tons of weight on top of its back for any length of time and it will probably be in trouble.

    Using D&D rules, an African elephant can carry 9600 pounds as a heavy load. That's more than 4 short tons, and close to 5.

    The slightly less strong Indian elephant can manage 7200 pounds as a heavy load (3.6 short tons).

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I am comparing the 6000 pound lift to what a character can lift off the ground.

    The "moving 5 ft per round" bit is kind of important. I doubt very much that the 6000 pound lift incorporated horizontal movement.

    For a lift that did incorporate movement:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafţór...ADus_Björnsson

    In January 2015, at the World's Strongest Viking competition held in Norway, Hafţór carried a 10-metre-long (33 ft), 650-kilogram (1,430 lb) log for five steps, thus breaking a 1,000-year-old record set by Orm Storolfsson.[22]


    But a D&D character can keep moving indefinitely at 5 ft per round, till the player decides to stop.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-10-30 at 02:26 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    I think there are rules for fatigue, but those don’t usually come up.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I mean if you take the Paragon classes or are an orc then you might be able to get that without raging but... yeah that's really high.
    (Technically, you can hit 59 with a half-ogreRoD by ECL 20: 18 base +6 racial +4 ASIs +20 from 10 levels in war hulk +6 enhancement +5 inherent.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    And of course it gets sillier when you add in stuff like spells in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    And of course it gets sillier when you add in stuff like spells in.
    3.5e: it can always get sillier!

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The point is that horses are much more "adapted to carry things on their backs" than other animals are - but that D&D doesn't account for this.

    An elephant might be able to tow several tons - but put several tons of weight on top of its back for any length of time and it will probably be in trouble.

    Using D&D rules, an African elephant can carry 9600 pounds as a heavy load. That's more than 4 short tons, and close to 5.

    The slightly less strong Indian elephant can manage 7200 pounds as a heavy load (3.6 short tons).
    I'm not sure I disagree with anything there. I'm just not sure how it relates to the discussion about the ability of humans to lift things in DnD and real life.

    Edit: Actually, I'm not at all sure that elephants can carry less on their back relative to their size than horses.

    The "moving 5 ft per round" bit is kind of important. I doubt very much that the 6000 pound lift incorporated horizontal movement.

    For a lift that did incorporate movement:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafţór...ADus_Björnsson

    In January 2015, at the World's Strongest Viking competition held in Norway, Hafţór carried a 10-metre-long (33 ft), 650-kilogram (1,430 lb) log for five steps, thus breaking a 1,000-year-old record set by Orm Storolfsson.[22]


    But a D&D character can keep moving indefinitely at 5 ft per round, till the player decides to stop.
    Well I imagine that person would be able to stagger about, which is exactly what the rules say that a DnD character lifting twice their maximum load can do.

    As for moving indefinitely, you are right that the PH doesn't explicitly state how long a character can stagger for. I don't think using a word like stagger suggest being able to do it indefinitely, but I guess some DMs may allow it.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-30 at 09:18 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Edit: Actually, I'm not at all sure that elephants can carry less on their back relative to their size than horses.
    When I google it, that's certainly the impression I get from info about elephant's backs being injured by howdahs and sometimes even by bareback riding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post

    Well I imagine that person would be able to stagger about,
    If taking five steps carrying less than 1500 pounds, is portrayed as a spectacular, once in 1000 years achievement - then surely taking any steps carrying 6000 pounds, which is more than 4 times as much, would be out of the question?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-10-30 at 09:31 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Well I imagine that person would be able to stagger about, which is exactly what the rules say that a DnD character lifting twice their maximum load can do.
    I was with you until here. Lifting weight and moving with weight are two very different things.
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  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I was with you until here. Lifting weight and moving with weight are two very different things.
    Yes. Lifting the weight like that involves distributing the load as much as possible, with the stresses carefully balanced and the force kept centered and vertical, aligned with the spine. It's done slowly to minimize the force -- no bouncing! Even trying to lift one foot would increase the load on the other side, and would create a horizontal force component on the spine. It's a recipe for disk herniation at best.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-10-30 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    When I google it, that's certainly the impression I get from info about elephant's backs being injured by howdahs and sometimes even by bareback riding.
    When I googled it I found a site which said they could lift 14000 pounds, but I'm not sure how credible that was so I didn't mention it.
    https://a-z-animals.com/blog/the-10-...ngest%20mammal.

    I suppose the amount Elephants can carry aren't the subject of rigorous scientific investigation. Perhaps because it would be mean to the Elephant.

    I was basing it on knowing that war elephants used to carry armour, a small tower and several people while running around in battle - which I would have guessed weights a couple of thousand pounds. Like this:





    If taking five steps carrying less than 1500 pounds, is portrayed as a spectacular, once in 1000 years achievement - then surely taking any steps carrying 6000 pounds, which is more than 4 times as much, would be out of the question?
    Maybe. Or maybe the Greatest Viking event is not of the same scale of lifting the most weight of any human.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I was with you until here. Lifting weight and moving with weight are two very different things.
    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Yes. Lifting the weight like that involves distributing the load as much as possible, with the stresses carefully balanced and the force kept centered and vertical, aligned with the spine. It's done slowly to minimize the force -- no bouncing! Even trying to lift one foot would increase the load on the other side, and would create a horizontal force component on the spine. It's a recipe for disk herniation at best.
    Maybe you guys are right. When I am at the gym and I lift the most weight I can (slightly less than these guys), I can still move around. But maybe when you hone your technique to lifting the maximum possible there's so much strain that you simply cannot move.

    If so, you would still need to be 25 str to carry the load that Hamish mentioned by the guy from the Viking competition.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-30 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    I am afraid of what we are all afraid of: The OOTS and Serini and friends will beat each other up and then Xykon & co. will walk around the corner.


    Quote Originally Posted by npc revolution View Post
    My guess is that Serini is escaping into the actual dungeon.

    We know that both the Order and Serini have plans that give them the upper hand vs Xykon. If either group gets their way, Xykon doesn't find the backstage area (And I assume the Gate) for a while. To get Team Evil back into contention I think we need this struggle between the Order and Serini to clue Team Evil in.

    So, Serini opens a hole into the real dungeon, and they all bump into Xykon. Personally I think the Order and Serini then split into two groups. I think Roy got a big dose of amnesia potion, if so then that puts Durkon and Elan in charge, that'll be fun to see.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    I think we've missed a key detail; Grog says his strength is 23, but his roll is considerably higher than 23 strength alone could roll (assuming it's 3.5 and str 23 translates to a +6 on the check). This means either it's a different version or game system, or Grog gets massive bonuses to door twisting checks.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    I think we've missed a key detail; Grog says his strength is 23, but his roll is considerably higher than 23 strength alone could roll (assuming it's 3.5 and str 23 translates to a +6 on the check). This means either it's a different version or game system, or Grog gets massive bonuses to door twisting checks.
    I had a percentile roll in mind, but neglected to specify that. Sorry about that.

    EDIT: Back when fighters could have "exceptional strength" scores of 18 plus a percentile (e.g. "18/56") there were some peculiarities of play, especially if one includes house rules.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-10-31 at 11:15 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Can I just say that following a rogue halfling with dimension door into a dark hole is an extraordinarily bad idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Or into the passageway beyond, or into the cave beyond, or into the pit beyond, or into the hole beyond since she knows that there's a pit trap ... (Rogue's gotta rogue)
    I really love this idea, but it would take a little more work without Sunny there to disintegrate. Maybe she leads them down a corridor where the floor is an illusion? (Leading to a Wile E. Coyote moment, where Haley defies gravity for a moment until Sunny grins and points down [because she used her head start to pause and zap herself with a Fly wand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Someone used the eye position to deduct it would be sleep. Which would not work on V at all, since Elf.
    Eye position is reliable if Sunny only exists in two dimensions... it's still useful, but less so, if three.
    (Yes, I'm the type of nit-picker who gets irritated when epic fictional space battles are fought as if they were in 2D. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    It's an amusing gag, but it's only a "rules weirdness" at a superficial level. (AFAIK) the spellbook isn't intended be thought of as a list of incantations, and magic isn't just incantations anyways. Instead, the spellbook is recording the wizards notes on the spell, and mnemonics to assist the wizard in preparing the delicate magics in their head every morning.

    Maybe it's better to think of this as poking fun at players who forget that magic is actually supposed to be difficult in-universe.
    I think of it similarly... it's still one of my favorite jokes, but it suffers from detailed examination (as do most jokes).

    E.g. even if the power word is Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, sure that only takes up one or two lines. But below it is an explanation of how each syllable interacts with the mana or chakra or whatever in the D&D world. And like Wingardium LevioSA, the exact way they're pronounced makes a big difference. I.e.
    Su-, -us: Initiator and terminator codons to bookend the spell, safely transitioning in and out of the energies required blah blah blah
    per: Identifies the target of the spell. While saying it your eyes must be focused on the target if possible; blink as you elide into the next syllable. If not possible, you must form a clear mental construct of the target then immediately dismiss it (both during the syllable).
    cal: Transitional link between target and effect. DO NOT pronounce the first letter with a sharp "k" sound, it must be something between a cough and a staccato drumbeat. Viz. "the spaghetti incident", appendix 93.
    if: Very soft sound, almost completely elided over, which indirectly modifies "cal" and completes the link. Pronouncing it distinctly will interrupt the link by invoking the element of Argaiv, prematurely terminating the spell and leading to a random part of your body being turned to stone for 30 minutes.
    And so on.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I really love this idea, but it would take a little more work without Sunny there to disintegrate. Maybe she leads them down a corridor where the floor is an illusion? (Leading to a Wile E. Coyote moment, where Haley defies gravity for a moment until Sunny grins and points down [because she used her head start to pause and zap herself with a Fly wand.)
    You were close; Serini uses a DD wand, and the trap was a Lurker Above. (Strip 1247).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Su-, -us: Initiator and terminator codons to bookend the spell, safely transitioning in and out of the energies required blah blah blah
    per: Identifies the target of the spell. While saying it your eyes must be focused on the target if possible; blink as you elide into the next syllable. If not possible, you must form a clear mental construct of the target then immediately dismiss it (both during the syllable).
    cal: Transitional link between target and effect. DO NOT pronounce the first letter with a sharp "k" sound, it must be something between a cough and a staccato drumbeat. Viz. "the spaghetti incident", appendix 93.
    if: Very soft sound, almost completely elided over, which indirectly modifies "cal" and completes the link. Pronouncing it distinctly will interrupt the link by invoking the element of Argaiv, prematurely terminating the spell and leading to a random part of your body being turned to stone for 30 minutes.
    And so on.
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