OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Dion]

I think Ochul is likely to be 200 pound or close, he is a really really tough fighter, very highconstitution and probably high strength too, that means he is heavy, he probably is pure muscles.

Before modern training, diet, and “supplements” (I.e. steroids and hormones) very few fit people were 200 lbs.

[hroþila]

The idea of extrapolating medieval diet and eating habits to the OotS universe is just too funny to me. There's clearly no shortage of fast food in this setting. In fact, I'd venture a guess that all the non-fantasy food we've seen in the comic so far (so no phoenix pâté and the like) was thoroughly modern.

[hamishspence]

Before modern training, diet, and “supplements” (I.e. steroids and hormones) very few fit people were 200 lbs.

That may be at least partly because average height has increased significantly in the last couple of centuries or so.

If the average height of adults was 5' 4" or so until fairly recently, and it's 5' 8" or so now (I can't recall the exact figures) , that would make a big difference to "what is normal weight for an average fit person".

[Vikenlugaid]

Before modern training, diet, and “supplements” (I.e. steroids and hormones) very few fit people were 200 lbs.

If by "modern" you mean the ancient romans, yes. XD
200 lbs is not that much for a fighter who base his fighting on strength and needs to wear heavy armor while fighting.
200 lbs for heavy infantry is not so rare.

[mjasghar]

For peasants etc the average height etc was low
However the military castes would be eating meat regularly and certain societies had ready access to meat or fish or cheese/yoghurt protein.
Looking at actual armour from that period it’s clear the elite classes were taller and must have had the muscle mass to be able to wear that armour. We’re talking about 20kg armour and then swinging 1k swords for long periods - chainmail would have required even bigger shoulder muscles.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it's not like physical qualities actually influence your stats most of the time. Roy is as strong as a twelve-foot frost giant barbarian, for example, even accounting for the belt.

[hamishspence]

For peasants etc the average height etc was low
However the military castes would be eating meat regularly and certain societies had ready access to meat or fish or cheese/yoghurt protein.

Yes - but the "military castes" are very few in number. Hence, "Very few fit people were 200 pounds (or more)" can still be true.

[mjasghar]

Very few yes but then again we are talking about 2 people are most definitely military - they are full time melee training and are seen walking about day to day in armour.
With regards to Roy and his Str this goes back to d&d and stars being abstractions. A massive being has a ton of HPs to represent its mass but a high level fighter has a ton of HPs to represent ability to minimise wounds whilst not making things too complicated

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar's commentary on obsessing over fiddly details seems apropos about now, given the theater of the absurd that we've entered into regarding the weight of a pair of two-dimensional comic book figure being lifted into the air by magic ...

[hamishspence]

Very few yes but then again we are talking about 2 people are most definitely military - they are full time melee training and are seen walking about day to day in armour.

Which, in this case, might represent the equivalent of "the average Viking" or "the average Roman legionary" or "the average samurai".

Even the Vikings, who were notorious for their height, were not enormously tall.

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/vikheight.shtml

From Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

Spoiler

Show

O-Chul's early life, shows him as specifically not a member of the military caste during his early years, up to the age of 10 or so - the critical period where malnutrition can make the most difference.

[Vikenlugaid]

Very few yes but then again we are talking about 2 people are most definitely military - they are full time melee training and are seen walking about day to day in armour.
With regards to Roy and his Str this goes back to d&d and stars being abstractions. A massive being has a ton of HPs to represent its mass but a high level fighter has a ton of HPs to represent ability to minimise wounds whilst not making things too complicated

Yeah, and in Ochul case, he has a ton of HP to represent his mass, cause he doesn't minimise wounds at all, he just stay paralyzed while a Gate explodes right in his face, then he flies miles away and still remains with positive hit points. I mean, i can't imagine Ochul as someone who weights something like 150 pounds...

[hamishspence]

I see it as a more abstract form of "toughness" than enormous amounts of muscle and fat. O-Chul is no sumo wrestler IMO.

[Riftwolf]

Yeah, and in Ochul case, he has a ton of HP to represent his mass, cause he doesn't minimise wounds at all, he just stay paralyzed while a Gate explodes right in his face, then he flies miles away and still remains with positive hit points. I mean, i can't imagine Ochul as someone who weights something like 150 pounds...

I'm fine with O-Chul only weighing that as the rules for d&d explicitly include magic which means physics *must* work differently in a d&d setting.

[Psyren]

So I went all the way back to the beginning of this silly tangent and I have a question:

Is Sunny's telekinesis powerful enough to be responsible for carrying O-Chul, Lien, and all their gear? The spell maxes out at 375 pounds. Though I suppose that Serini could have used something to decrease their weight. I notice that in that page, Serini is addressed as "Boss" rather than "Mom".

Why are we assuming Serini isn't carrying any of it? Sure Serini says "grab them" in Panel 4, but time clearly passes between that and Panel 5. If Sunny grabbed them both, concluded "Mom, both of them are too heavy, can you take the girl?" and Serini grabbed Lien, nothing we see on the page has to change. Serini can even fly with a heavy load, or she might tap herself with a bull's strength wand etc. Indeed, panel 5 does look like they're being carried separately.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, and in Ochul case, he has a ton of HP to represent his mass,

Hp doesn't represent mass or size or even youthful vigor (not exclusively youthful vigor anyway). I used to think it did too, but then I ran into its official definition which amounts to a vague ability to avoid serious injury and shrug off stuff.

cause he doesn't minimise wounds at all, he just stay paralyzed while a Gate explodes right in his face, then he flies miles away and still remains with positive hit points. I mean, i can't imagine Ochul as someone who weights something like 150 pounds...

Here's the thing: a standard MM ogre weighs like twice or three times as much as O-Chul has any right to weigh and yet, an exploding Gate would blow an out-of-the-box ogre to smithereens (as should happen to pretty much anyone standing that close to the epicentre of the boom krackakoom, regardless of weight).

[Hurkyl]

Looking at judo fighters is a clever way of thinking about the weights of fighters in DnD. I assume the 140 pounds was the weight class for male middleweights?

Yeah. The 1964 Olympics had lightweight at 0-137, middleweight at 138-175, heavyweight at 176-204, and openweight at 205+.

Over time they've divided things up into more classes. And revised the numbers upward, which I presume is attributed to some combination of greater international appeal and countries being more involved in optimizing for Olympic performance.

(This information comes from just one source. While there was nothing in it to make me skeptical, I just wanted to be clear I did not seek independent corroboration)

[Dion]

i can't imagine Ochul as someone who weights something like 150 pounds...

That’s true. Probably like 135 max, based on the tough real life people I know (and not the imaginary “tough” people from movies).

[mjasghar]

There’s some links here amid the discussion- exhumed bodies from a major war of the roses battle show 5’3 to 6’ and most searches for knightly height tend to that higher end with many individuals well over.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.37891.html

[Dion]

There’s some links here amid the discussion- exhumed bodies from a major war of the roses battle show 5’3 to 6’ and most searches for knightly height tend to that higher end with many individuals well over.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.37891.html

Exactly. At 6’, a 200lbs dude is way too big to have a high constitution like O-Chul.

I mean, don’t get me wrong. I love the make believe fantasy of Arnold Schwarzenegger movies with impossibly huge steroid monsters standing 6’ 3” and tipping the scales at 225 lbs, and then literally surviving small nuclear blasts in predator. That’s great stuff!

But it’s not how real people work.

[bunsen_h]

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

O-Chul's early life, shows him as specifically not a member of the military caste during his early years, up to the age of 10 or so - the critical period where malnutrition can make the most difference.

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

In fact, in that story, O-Chul described himself explicitly as being "sickly from neglect".

EDIT:

Exactly. At 6’, a 200lbs dude is way too big to have a high constitution like O-Chul.

Why do you think that? This is D&D we're talking about, where stats don't correlate well with body type/shape. But even in the real world, I see 6'/200lbs as consistent with a healthy and quite muscular person.

[Dion]

But even in the real world, I see 6'/200lbs as consistent with a healthy and quite muscular person.

I see 6 ft / 200 lbs as pretty fat; the few exceptions are almost always focused on strength and never endurance.

[hamishspence]

Using the PHB height and weight tables - the height at which 200 lb is the median weight for a male human, is 6' 2".

[Tvtyrant]

I see 6 ft / 200 lbs as pretty fat; the few exceptions are almost always focused on strength and never endurance.

Except boxers, which are perhaps the ultimate endurance athletes. The cruiserweight division is literally made of 6ft 200lb individuals.

It's also important to note that a 20% bodyfat male at 6foot 200lbs has 40lbs of fat, and about 60-80 lbs of muscle. That's well within the healthy, not fat range.

[hamishspence]

Except boxers, which are perhaps the ultimate endurance athletes.

I thought "marathon runner" was closer to the ultimate endurance athlete than boxer.

[danielxcutter]

I was under the impression that combat prowess and endurance are far from identical.

[bunsen_h]

I was under the impression that combat prowess and endurance are far from identical.

"Dude, you keep punching yourself in the face. Over and over. How do you keep doing that?"

"Gark is great warrior! Gark can fight!"

[Tvtyrant]

I thought "marathon runner" was closer to the ultimate endurance athlete than boxer.

I suppose it depends on how we define "ultimate." Boxers are closer to triathletes, they have to maintain a lot of muscle while being able to jump around for long periods of time. Marathon runners ditch both muscle and fat to specialize in being as small as possible.

Is running in a straight line more exhausting then jumping back and forth while getting wacked? I don't know that for sure either way. I do know from experience that all combat sports require a tremendous amount of endurance training, several hours a day because otherwise you will gas out.

[Metastachydium]

How 'bout open-water long-distance swimming?

[hamishspence]

Yeah. The 1964 Olympics had lightweight at 0-137, middleweight at 138-175, heavyweight at 176-204, and openweight at 205+.

This matches perfectly to "D&D typical weights for a 6' 0" person"

The typical weight for a 6' 0" human is 190 pounds (rolling a 5 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier), a slightly light weight for such a person would be 176 lbs (rolling a 4 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier) and a slightly heavy weight would be 204 lb (rolling a 6 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier).

5/8 (62.5%) of all 6' 0" adventurers would fall within this range.

When you think of 190 pounds as "exactly in the middle of the Heavyweight range", 200 pounds doesn't look so average.


Though it's true that heavyweight judo and heavyweight boxing may involve somewhat different size assumptions.

[Tvtyrant]

This matches perfectly to "D&D typical weights for a 6' 0" person"

The typical weight for a 6' 0" human is 190 pounds (rolling a 5 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier), a slightly light weight for such a person would be 176 lbs (rolling a 4 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier) and a slightly heavy weight would be 204 lb (rolling a 6 on 2d8 for Weight Modifier).

5/8 (62.5%) of all 6' 0" adventurers would fall within this range.

When you think of 190 pounds as "exactly in the middle of the Heavyweight range", 200 pounds doesn't look so average.


Though it's true that heavyweight judo and heavyweight boxing may involve somewhat different size assumptions.

In professional boxing heavy weight is effectively 225+. It used to start at 200lbs, they added a but a little heavy weight for the 200-225 people.