OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Wait what is it then?

Bend in the door. Twist in the door. Crush in the door. It's like that scene in Avengers, except Hulk says "puny door".

[Psyren]

I agree with Psyren though, if its just a stuck door and not a trap then you have to give some sort of staged warning like this before you hand out arbitrary damage.

Well yeah, if the damage is coming from a trap on the door then it is not arbitrary by definition I definitely interpreted it as being from strain.

Noticing said trap would of course require a different set of skills (though high Dungeoneering might give you a bonus of some kind.)

[Peelee]

Serious question. I really don't understand why you are okay with what Bunsen_H said but would object to what I suggested? Other than some kind of bias.

I missed this earlier, sorry. Bunsen's response was perfect for me because it was a joke answer to a joke question. My scenario was never intended to be serious. When I say stiff like that at my IRL table, it's specifically for levity while I'm surrounded by close friends. That was the perfect type of response to my frankly ridiculous hypothetical.

Psyren's, on the other hand, was a good take on running a serious answer to a joking question.

Hence, two different answers that I find work well for different reasons

[Quizatzhaderac]

DM: you warp reality with your confidence. The door opens. You see the same black cat twice.

You warp reality with your confidence. The door opens.

But now the doorway leads to the first room in the dungeon because you also warped space.

After a while the party realizes there's not way to get into the room that was behind the door, and gives up.

But then they realize that the door the should be the exit now leads back into the room with the twisted door.

[Riftwolf]

Player: "Grog will twist door!"
DM: "Uh, okay, what's your strength?"
Player: "This --" [displays ten fingers] "-- and this --" [repeats] "-- and this many!" [shows three fingers]
DM: "Okay, roll."
Player: "Grog got this -- and this -- and this -- and this -- and this -- and this -- and this."
DM: "... Okay, you wrenched the door off. You also triggered a trap..."

Grog has (+41-69) strength bonus to door twisting!?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, isn’t 23 Str pretty decent too?

[Psyren]

You warp reality with your confidence. The door opens.

But now the doorway leads to the first room in the dungeon because you also warped space.

After a while the party realizes there's not way to get into the room that was behind the door, and gives up.

But then they realize that the door the should be the exit now leads back into the room with the twisted door.

And that kids is why we don't dungeon-delve in the Far Realm.

Wait, isn’t 23 Str pretty decent too?

Depends on edition and level. Roy is considerably higher than 23 for example, and he's not even a barbarian.

[hamishspence]

Wait, isn’t 23 Str pretty decent too?

In real-world terms, in 3.5, yes (the greatest real-world weightlifters can lift above their heads, roughly what a Str 23 person in D&D 3.5 can lift above their head).

[bunsen_h]

Now I'm positing a Potion of Barbarian Strength which grants an enormous short-term boost to STR, but also an enormous smackdown to INT, which recovers much more slowly.

[Psyren]

Now I'm positing a Potion of Barbarian Strength which grants an enormous short-term boost to STR, but also an enormous smackdown to INT, which recovers much more slowly.

PF Alchemist's Mutagen does exactly this, except the Int penalty and Str bonus are the same duration. It also stacks with bull's strength AND rage.

[Liquor Box]

Depends on edition and level. Roy is considerably higher than 23 for example, and he's not even a barbarian.

In real-world terms, in 3.5, yes (the greatest real-world weightlifters can lift above their heads, roughly what a Str 23 person in D&D 3.5 can lift above their head).

It's pretty incredible strength in 3.5 too. Roy only has higher strength because he wears a magic belt.

[Psyren]

It's pretty incredible strength in 3.5 too. Roy only has higher strength because he wears a magic belt.

Yeah but he's in 3.5, WBL means he's expected to have a primary stat belt. Not having one means he is weaker than he should be.

[Liquor Box]

Yeah but he's in 3.5, WBL means he's expected to have a primary stat belt. Not having one means he is weaker than he should be.

Yes I understand that, but he is still no stronger than a real world person. He just enhances his strength with a belt.

I don't think the availability of str enhancing items means that people in DnD are stronger that real world people any more than the availability of calculators and wikipedia makes real world people smarter than DnD people.

[danielxcutter]

No?

In 3.5e the Belt of Giant Strength only increases Strength by 4 or 6. It’s not stupid like 5e where it completely replaces it.

[Psyren]

Yes I understand that, but he is still no stronger than a real world person.

The question wasn't whether Roy is on par with a real world human. The question was whether his strength is "decent." And decent strength for a 3.5 two-handed Fighter of 14+ level is higher than 23.

[Peelee]

The question wasn't whether Roy is on par with a real world human. The question was whether his strength is "decent." And decent strength for a 3.5 two-handed Fighter of 14+ level is higher than 23.

Small technicality, the question was whether a strength score of 23 was pretty decent.

[Liquor Box]

The question wasn't whether Roy is on par with a real world human. The question was whether his strength is "decent." And decent strength for a 3.5 two-handed Fighter of 14+ level is higher than 23.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think 23 str is good for a lvl 14 fighter, because you can put a belt on and be str 29. I doubt there's any humans in the Ootsverse with a higher str.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, 23 base Strength at that level is a little scary.

[Liquor Box]

Uh, 23 base Strength at that level is a little scary.

Yeah true. I suppose the usual max strength for a lvl 14 human would be 21 str - 18 plus 3 extra from level ups (so weaker than the strongest real world humans).

I don't know why Roy is stronger than 21. Perhaps his belt is actually +8, or perhaps the 29 str in the geekery thread isn't accurate.

[danielxcutter]

He's reading one of those inherent bonus tomes in On the Origin of PCs, the Constitution one I think? Could have read a Str tome too.

[hamishspence]

Yeah true. I suppose the usual max strength for a lvl 14 human would be 21 str - 18 plus 3 extra from level ups (so weaker than the strongest real world humans).

The Prodigy trait from DMG2 grants a +2 bonus to one stat, allowing a 1 HD character to be Str 20 rather than Str 18.

The Human Paragon class (Unearthed Arcana, SRD) grants +2 to one stat at 3rd level.

So, in line with the "6th level characters are capable of achieving the limits of what's possible in real life" concept, you could have a character with 3 levels in something else, 3 levels in Human Paragon (so, +1 Str from levelling up alone, as a 6HD character) , the Prodigy Trait, and a rolled Str at 1st level of 18 - and have them be Str 23 with only 6 HD.

[Liquor Box]

The Prodigy trait from DMG2 grants a +2 bonus to one stat, allowing a 1 HD character to be Str 20 rather than Str 18.

The Human Paragon class (Unearthed Arcana, SRD) grants +2 to one stat at 3rd level.

So, in line with the "6th level characters are capable of achieving the limits of what's possible in real life" concept, you could have a character with 3 levels in something else, 3 levels in Human Paragon (so, +1 Str from levelling up alone, as a 6HD character) , the Prodigy Trait, and a rolled Str at 1st level of 18 - and have them be Str 23 with only 6 HD.

You're right that using one of those obscure feats might be another possibility for Roy's strength, although it might be less consistent with the unoptimised theme of the story.


I hadn't heard the theory that a sixth level character could do anything a real world person could do (without magical enhancements). I'm not sure it's so clear. The record for lifting weights above your head is consistent with a str 23 character. But the world record for lifting weight off the ground is over 6,000 pounds and that is more than double what a str 29 character can do. The strength modelling in 3.5 is obviously not perfect, so it may be most accurate to peg maximum human strength somewhere north of 23 but not necessarily as high as necessary to lift 6,000 pounds.

As an aside, I'm not sure that the records reflect the most possible. Weightlifters can increase their lifting ability long term with steroids and temporarily with adrenaline and some drugs, and those are banned from world records. I guess the temporary increases are analogous to bull str potions though.

[danielxcutter]

I should point out that not only are stats an abstraction, 23 Str does much more than just lifting weights. Even most athletes wouldn't have close to that much; there's a reason 18 Str before racial adjustments is the max.

[Liquor Box]

I should point out that not only are stats an abstraction, 23 Str does much more than just lifting weights. Even most athletes wouldn't have close to that much; there's a reason 18 Str before racial adjustments is the max.

It's absolutely an abstraction and a very simple one.

The ability to lift weights off the ground or above your heads is one of the few aspects of strength that are quantified in the rules that are able to be tracked back to the real world. For example, you can't track a +8 to hit and damage from strength and say that Deontay Wilder has more or less than that. You can compare the lifting back to what real world people are able to do so it is the only baseline between real world strength and DnD strength.

[bunsen_h]

But the world record for lifting weight off the ground is over 6,000 pounds

Where are you getting that? The numbers I'm seeing from Google searching are a bit over 1,000 pounds. There's a BBC article about hysterical strength which looks at claims that people have lifted 3,000 pounds, without citing sources. It points out that the reality seem to be about shifting vehicles from pinning accident victims, which would involve lever action rather than simple lifting.

[hamishspence]

I hadn't heard the theory that a sixth level character could do anything a real world person could do (without magical enhancements). I'm not sure it's so clear.

To be exact, 6th level is where "superhuman" begins:

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress...expectations-2

So what have we learned so far? Almost everyone you have ever met is a 1st level character. The few exceptional people you’ve met are probably 2nd or 3rd level – they’re canny and experienced and can accomplish things that others find difficult or impossible.

If you know someone who’s 4th level, then you’re privileged to know one of the most talented people around: They’re a professional sports player. Or a brain surgeon. Or a rocket scientist.

If you know someone who’s 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Walter Payton. Michael Jordan. Albert Einstein. Isaac Newton. Miyamoto Musashi. William Shakespeare.

So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they’re literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero.

[Psyren]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think 23 str is good for a lvl 14 fighter, because you can put a belt on and be str 29. I doubt there's any humans in the Ootsverse with a higher str.

If you had meant base rather than total then that's fine. I was talking about total.

In 3.5, you should be aiming for 34-38 in your primary stat by 20 generally.

[danielxcutter]

Hold up, 38? 34 is doable with inherent bonuses but 38 is really high without Raging.

[Psyren]

Hold up, 38? 34 is doable with inherent bonuses but 38 is really high without Raging.

36 is the top end in 3.5, you're right. I had forgotten pale blue Ioun Stone wouldn't stack with the Belt.

[danielxcutter]

I mean if you take the Paragon classes or are an orc then you might be able to get that without raging but... yeah that's really high.