OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I didn't realize there were so many Waterfalls; I thought "Wait, isn't that Free Waterfall, Jr.? And isn't he dead?" (The second part, yes; the first part, no.)

The Waterfall family was an excellent low-key addition to the series.

[hroþila]

My first impression was that Haley just tried to yank V out of the path of the beam and wasn't able to.

Yeah, if you look at the movement thingy, V was where beam #1 hit, Haley yanked them out of the way but unfortunately right into beam #2.

[elros]

Since we're placing bets, my bet is that the real payoff of talking to Sunny isn't changing Sunny's mind. Rather, it's getting Sunny to talk about things while Sereni isn't around to tell him to hush.

Seriously, this is going to be like Kids Say the Darndest Things. One of Art's favorite tactics was to ask the kids what they were told not to mention on the air.

I think Sunny and Elan with chat, and they have such similar personalities that they will become friends. When the others return, Elan will tell them Sunny's backstory, and explain why everyone should work together.
Everyone will be one big happy party, just like Elan wants!

[BriarHobbit]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.

It certainly looked like Hailey used V as a body shield to soak up an eye beam. Either charm or sleep would not work on V. My guess is that Serini is now going to run her pursuers past a number of monstrous obstacles so that she only has to deal with one of them.

[bunsen_h]

Since we're placing bets, my bet is that the real payoff of talking to Sunny isn't changing Sunny's mind. Rather, it's getting Sunny to talk about things while Sereni isn't around to tell him to hush.

Seriously, this is going to be like Kids Say the Darndest Things. One of Art's favorite tactics was to ask the kids what they were told not to mention on the air.

I think that it's going to be a matter of explaining the situation (as far as they understand it) to Sunny, and Sunny then talking with Serini. Serini is inclined to dismiss anything that the Order says out of hand -- in one ear, out the other. She'll at least listen to Sunny.

My first impression was that Haley just tried to yank V out of the path of the beam and wasn't able to.

It appears to me that Haley dodged her "own" beam, the one angled highest, and tried unsuccessfully to get V out of the path of the second beam. Belkar jumped back from the third beam. I don't know if the Rules would allow Sunny to pepper all around the hole with a bunch of beams, rather than targeting individuals, but even if so, Sunny might think that that would risk people getting hit multiple times and being hurt too badly.

[Wimblesaurus]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

to address both points: eyelids

[Dion]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

She keeps the list in the same pocket where Haley keeps her arrows, and pulls it out with the same hands MitD uses to carry a stew pot.

On a related note, is Sunny making those crayon drawings above her bed with telekinesis?

And why does a floating eye monster even need a bed? Does she only float when she’s awake?

[Vikenlugaid]

She keeps the list in the same pocket where Haley keeps her arrows, and pulls it out with the same hands MitD uses to carry a stew pot.

On a related note, is Sunny making those crayon drawings above her bed with telekinesis?

And why does a floating eye monster even need a bed? Does she only float when she’s awake?

And more important... Are we gonna meet that "dragon" monster soon?

[Peelee]

And more important... Are we gonna meet that "dragon" monster soon?

Ooo, I forgot about that. Five gold on it being incorporated with a joke like "what, you thought dungeons didn't have dragons?"

[Fyraltari]

Ooo, I forgot about that. Five gold on it being incorporated with a joke like "what, you thought dungeons didn't have dragons?"

I have reasons to suspect that there currently exists a large draconic vacancy within the global dungeon-related marketplace.

[Xel]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.
.

Oh dear. Why do I now have the sneaking suspicion that Banjulhu will be getting a new adherent?

[skim172]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

[Wraithfighter]

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

Possibly.

It'd also probably increase Sunny's willingness to use Disintegration on living targets by, oh, 900%.

[Peelee]

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

4/5ths, really. The disintegrate eye could free itself pretty easily. And also all the others, come to think of it, though it'd take a minute or so.

[Hurkyl]

The telekinesis eye could free itself pretty quickly too.

[Emanick]

I didn't realize there were so many Waterfalls; I thought "Wait, isn't that Free Waterfall, Jr.? And isn't he dead?" (The second part, yes; the first part, no.)

Why are you guys talking about the fish that I had in fifth grade? And how do you know their names?

4/5ths, really. The disintegrate eye could free itself pretty easily. And also all the others, come to think of it, though it'd take a minute or so.

Depending on how precise the ray can be, I'm not sure Sunny would feel comfortable aiming a disintegration beam at her own eyestalk, whether or not it was currently covered in a sock. I know the rules likely would technically make that "harmless," but I am much less sure that Sunny would see it that way.

[Peelee]

Why are you guys talking about the fish that I had in fifth grade? And how do you know their names?

I weep for your poor fishies' fates.

[Metastachydium]

Depending on how precise the ray can be, I'm not sure Sunny would feel comfortable aiming a disintegration beam at her own eyestalk, whether or not it was currently covered in a sock. I know the rules likely would technically make that "harmless," but I am much less sure that Sunny would see it that way.

1. Sunny wouldn't see it in any way. Because of the socks.
2. Sunny wouldn't target an eyestalk. The eyestalk would target a sock that's on the eyestalk in question.

[bunsen_h]

Is Sunny's telekinesis powerful enough to be responsible for carrying O-Chul, Lien, and all their gear? The spell maxes out at 375 pounds. Though I suppose that Serini could have used something to decrease their weight. I notice that in that page, Serini is addressed as "Boss" rather than "Mom".

[danielxcutter]

In terms of weight, I'd give it a good chance.

[Fyraltari]

I notice that in that page, Serini is addressed as "Boss" rather than "Mom".

It's because they're at work.

[Peelee]

In terms of weight, I'd give it a good chance.

Seconded. Some time ago the exact stats stopped really mattering and it became more of "does this explain X well enough?" im fine with telekinesis hefting both paladins.

[Liquor Box]

Seconded. Some time ago the exact stats stopped really mattering and it became more of "does this explain X well enough?" im fine with telekinesis hefting both paladins.

The numbers do matter. Lots of the prediction and other discussion threads rely on knowing what the characters can and cannot do. Just like it would be a plot hole in a book based in our world if a single person carried off two unconscious people without an explanation (like a cart), it is a plothole in the comic if a character does something you wouldn't expect from their abilities.

In saying that, I think it's very likely that Lien and O-Chul way less than 375 with their gear. The average weight for a japanese man and woman is 137 and 116 pounds respectively, so about 250 total.

[Peelee]

The numbers do matter. Lots of the prediction and other discussion threads rely on knowing what the characters can and cannot do. Just like it would be a plot hole in a book based in our world if a single person carried off two unconscious people without an explanation (like a cart), it is a plothole in the comic if a character does something you wouldn't expect from their abilities.

Counterargument 1.

Spoiler: Counterargument 2

Show

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

Also, even if we assumed neither of those were the case and the strip was absolutely beholden to stats written in a game book the author has explicitly said he is no longer following, then it still wouldn't be a plot hole. At worst, it would be an inconsistency. But it's not even an inconsistency here, because the author only has to be consistent within his own work. So Roy won't be throwing fireballs all of a sudden, but Eye Tyrants can have eight eye stalks and telekinesis can have a higher maximum weight limit, because that's not inconsistent with anything in the story.

So no, the numbers don't matter.

[Hurkyl]

Counterargument 1.

Rebuttal: being more condescending doesn't make you more correct.

It's fine that you don't care so much and the author isn't a slave to the details. But those of us who like doing more analysis... it's much more rewarding to actually fill in the details than to just say "a wizard did it" and stop thinking every time something looks off.

[Peelee]

Rebuttal: being more condescending doesn't make you more correct.

It's fine that you don't care so much and the author isn't a slave to the details. But those of us who like doing more analysis... it's much more rewarding to actually fill in the details than to just say "a wizard did it" and stop thinking every time something looks off.

Not being condescending, I'm simply directly linking to and quoting the author's exact words on being beholden to the strict mechanics. If you enjoy detailed analysis, that's fantastic! That also does not mean that the author is required or even wants to keep to the exact mechanics of a twenty year old game system that he openly regrets basing his comic on. This isn't even "a wizard did it". This is "the creature explicitly is able to do this, just not quite as well as in the strip, so the author likely just upped the max limit to" however much is required to lift two paladins in heavy armor with all their gear".

You are free to guess how it was done by the rules. I have no problem with that. But if you expect those guesses to mandate how the comic is playing out, then I'm going to point out that that's a bad idea because the author has flat-out said that he is actively trying to confound that.

[Hurkyl]

Not being condescending, I'm simply directly linking to and quoting the author's exact words on being beholden to the strict mechanics.

You don't think the flowchart leading to 'what you care about doesn't matter' was a rather condescending way to tell someone 'what you care about doesn't matter'? (was it the Giant who made the flowchart?)

Shrug. Well, it comes off that way to me, even if it wasn't intended.

[Peelee]

You don't think the flowchart leading to 'what you care about doesn't matter' was a rather condescending way to tell someone 'what you care about doesn't matter'? (was it the Giant who made the flowchart?)

Shrug. Well, IMO, it comes off that way to me, even if it wasn't intended.

Yes, the Giant made the flowchart. It was in the latest patreon question and answer thread. I apologize if it came off as condescending - I was trying to point out multiple times that the author directly said that he does not care about rules accuracy in the comic.

[Liquor Box]

Counterargument 1.



Also, even if we assumed neither of those were the case and the strip was absolutely beholden to stats written in a game book the author has explicitly said he is no longer following, then it still wouldn't be a plot hole. At worst, it would be an inconsistency. But it's not even an inconsistency here, because the author only has to be consistent within his own work. So Roy won't be throwing fireballs all of a sudden, but Eye Tyrants can have eight eye stalks and telekinesis can have a higher maximum weight limit, because that's not inconsistent with anything in the story.

So no, the numbers don't matter.

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all. If the DnD rules don't matter at all, then this is not a DnD based webcomic. I think the starting point is that the DnD rules apply, but with recognition that we are relying on the Giant's memory of them because he can't be bothered looking them all up. So it's based on DnD rules, but imperfectly.

Whether I am right or not, that is the premise on which the majority of the discussion on this forum is based.

This is a good example. I think the earlier poster was speculating as to whether it was Sunny who assisted Serini in carrying the paladins off. It is useful for the rules to be adhered to because then people are able to deduce things like whether it was Serini. And I think that would have been a good clue except for the fact the paladins are probably have been a good clue.

As for plot hole vs inconsistency, the wikipedia page on plot holes suggests they are the same thing. But maybe that is too simplistic - I'm happy to accept they're inconsistencies instead.

[Hurkyl]

Yes, the Giant made the flowchart. It was in the latest patreon question and answer thread. I apologize if it came off as condescending - I was trying to point out multiple times that the author directly said that he does not care about rules accuracy in the comic.

Oh. The flowchart was meant to be one that he uses when writing the comic?

In context, it looked like you were saying Liquor Box should follow the flowchart.