OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all.

OK, then I can pull out more things he's said.

I've seen comments (here and in other threads) that this "change" to the comic (which is not really a change) to "move away" from D&D rules will result in utter chaos, and that without the D&D rules to reign me in, I'm just as likely to solve a problem by having, say, Roy fireball the enemy, or Belkar summon a demon. This is ridiculous. Regardless of my adherence to the D&D rules, I am still obligated to adhere to the internal consistency of the story I have already written. Roy does not cast spells; this is already established within the work. It does not matter whether or not the reason he does not cast spells is because the D&D rules say his class shouldn't—it's still been clearly established that he does not. Therefore, he will not be casting any spells in the future unless I also establish, within the comic, that he has gained the ability to do so...which you could then extrapolate to mean that he has multi-classed to a spellcasting class. In other words, any move away from D&D rules will be to make a better story, and having the characters suddenly display heretofore unseen powers would make it a worse story—so I won't be doing it.

Again, internal consistency is the biggest thing that matters. He never says he doesn't mind inconsistencies or plot holes (also, I was mistaken when I said he wishes he had not hitched the comic to D&D, as is mentioned elsewhere in that post).

If the paladins and gear weighed over 350 (which is incredibly likely), then Sunny was still invisible, the paladins were still out cold, and Sunny could have just made two trips and been within RAW. This would have been clunkier than just having Sunny pick them all up in one panel. This moves away from D&D rules but makes for a better story. It's perfectly consistent with his thoughts on rules accuracy in the comic and perfectly consistent with the comic as-is.

Oh. The flowchart was meant to be one that he uses when writing the comic?

In context, it looked like you were saying Liquor Box should follow the flowchart.

Yes to the first sentence. I never even thought about using it in the context of the second sentence, but now I totally get how it could come off as condescending. Sorry, I thought it was more well-known that it was his description of his own process than it apparently is. My bad. I could have totally contextualized it better.

[Liquor Box]

OK, then I can pull out more things he's said.

Again, internal consistency is the biggest thing that matters. He never says he doesn't mind inconsistencies or plot holes (also, I was mistaken when I said he wishes he had not hitched the comic to D&D, as is mentioned elsewhere in that post).

If the paladins and gear weighed over 350 (which is incredibly likely), then Sunny was still invisible, the paladins were out cold, and Sunny could have just made two trips and been within RAW. this would have been clunker than just having Sunny pick them all up in one panel. This moves away from D&D rules but makes for a better story. It's perfectly consistent with his thoughts on rules accuracy in the comic and perfectly consistent with the comic as-is.

The Giant's quote there seems to me to be perfectly consistent with what I said. I agree with the giant that internal consistency is crucial (more so than adherence to the rules). But that doesn't detract from the point that the comic is based on the rules, and in most cases adhere to the rules, although not perfectly so. The Giant even says that when we see something unexpected (Roy casting a spell) we should interpret in terms of the rules (multiclassing).

Again, that is how the comic works most of the time (if not all), and much of the discussion is centered on it. Well I agree that the rules are not conclusive, I don't think you were right to say the rules simply don't matter.

Do you have any quotes from the Giant saying that the rules (or numbers) don't matter to the comic at all? If not, I think you are extrapolating to far from what he did say.

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds? Going off either average human weight from the rules (again the prove a useful framework) or from real life the paladins plus their gear probably come in at less. Since that explanation works, is consistent with what we saw, is consistent with the rules, why would that not be the case?

[Hurkyl]

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds?

A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

I thought 50 pounds for armor sounded right. Some searching suggests that's right, although it could be less... or a lot more.

The rest of their gear has weight too. I really don't have much clue how much weight we would expect the paladins to be carrying.

So my thought was that the load is likely to be 350 pounds at a minimum... but I expect it should be fair bit more than that. I feel like over is a tad more likely than under.

But the additional gear is probably a moot point, since Serini could carry their sacks, if she doesn't have a bag of holding to stuff it in.

[danielxcutter]

I presume they're wearing heavy armor? Full plate is 50 pounds each by RAW(which is not the case IRL, but whatever). Katanas have the same stats as bastard swords so that one's 6 pounds, and a spear weighs the same. Seems more than reasonable to not break the weight budget.

[Liquor Box]

A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

Yeah, that was actually me.

I thought 50 pounds for armor sounded right. Some searching suggests that's right, although it could be less... or a lot more.

The rest of their gear has weight too. I really don't have much clue how much weight we would expect the paladins to be carrying.

So my thought was that the load is likely to be 350 pounds at a minimum... but I expect it should be fair bit more than that. I feel like over is a tad more likely than under.

But the additional gear is probably a moot point, since Serini could carry their sacks, if she doesn't have a bag of holding to stuff it in.

I presume they're wearing heavy armor? Full plate is 50 pounds each by RAW(which is not the case IRL, but whatever). Katanas have the same stats as bastard swords so that one's 6 pounds, and a spear weighs the same. Seems more than reasonable to not break the weight budget.

I assumed they were not wearing full plate, because of the contrast between it and the armour Tarquin wears in strip 910. I assumed breastplate or similar at 30pds a pop. Add that to 250 pds, we get to 310 - which leaves 65 more for other equipment (their weapons are probably 4 or 5 pds each).

[danielxcutter]

I'm actually pretty sure Tarquin is using a mithral breastplate with armor spikes. The coloring is just due to the glamour spell. Not much concrete evidence, but I'm pretty sure his build is largely Swordsage with maybe some Fighter and Monk levels.

[Vikenlugaid]

The Giant's quote there seems to me to be perfectly consistent with what I said. I agree with the giant that internal consistency is crucial (more so than adherence to the rules). But that doesn't detract from the point that the comic is based on the rules, and in most cases adhere to the rules, although not perfectly so. The Giant even says that when we see something unexpected (Roy casting a spell) we should interpret in terms of the rules (multiclassing).

Again, that is how the comic works most of the time (if not all), and much of the discussion is centered on it. Well I agree that the rules are not conclusive, I don't think you were right to say the rules simply don't matter.

Do you have any quotes from the Giant saying that the rules (or numbers) don't matter to the comic at all? If not, I think you are extrapolating to far from what he did say.

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds? Going off either average human weight from the rules (again the prove a useful framework) or from real life the paladins plus their gear probably come in at less. Since that explanation works, is consistent with what we saw, is consistent with the rules, why would that not be the case?

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.

[Liquor Box]

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.

Based on what? Nothing peelee quoted suggested some distinction between rules generally, and numbers expressed in rules.

[elros]

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.

I agree the “rules” of OOTS are more important for internal consistency than strict adherence to the D&D 3.5 ruleset, but that ruleset is still important to the audience. Part of the allure of this webcomic is that it is based on a ruleset that people can access, allowing them to understand every detail of the world. Access to those rules allows readers to speculate about plot points, character statistics, and even the origin of the MitD. It also is the basis for a lot of the humor of the webcomic, including the very first strip.
Fans are always going to argue about details- it happens in sports, movies, video games, music, literature, and anything else you can name.
Are some of us obsessive? Probably, but the D&D ruleset helps readers understand and predict things in this fantasy world, which is a nice distraction from a real world that is often confusing and unpredictable.

[Vikenlugaid]

Based on what? Nothing peelee quoted suggested some distinction between rules generally, and numbers expressed in rules.

Based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy at all.

[Emmit Svenson]

Code words have many uses in battle actually. Not only are they shortening out, but even if it's easy to figure out, it could still take you a second or two to realize and your enemy will always have to consider what exactly do you mean.

A good example of that in the OOTS is in the desert, where V gave the instruction that Xykon is feeling chilly. Notice that it wasn't that obvious at first what it means to everyone (specifically Belkar).

For those of you that appreciate a good rule reference:

Bluff (Cha)

....Delivering a Secret Message
You can use Bluff to get a message across to another character without others understanding it. The DC is 15 for simple messages, or 20 for complex messages, especially those that rely on getting across new information. Failure by 4 or less means you can’t get the message across. Failure by 5 or more means that some false information has been implied or inferred. Anyone listening to the exchange can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check you made to transmit in order to intercept your message (see Sense Motive)....

[Liquor Box]

Based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy at all.

So based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy you conclude that the rules do matter? And then you think he doesn't care about numbers despite not mentioning numbers at all? And you think that logic is simple?

[hroþila]

I think some of you guys are kinda losing sight of what the actual inaccuracy would be in this case: a matter of a few pounds above the weight limit defined by the rules (if that – it's perfectly possible that their weight was under the limit). Eyeballing that doesn't make the comic internally inconsistent or render us unable to make predictions based on the Order's known abilities.

[Vikenlugaid]

So based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy you conclude that the rules do matter? And then you think he doesn't care about numbers despite not mentioning numbers at all? And you think that logic is simple?

Sunny is a beholder/eyeballthing, they can use telekinesis with one of the eyes, that is something based on the rules, rules matters. But telekinesis is a spell with a limitation on the weight it can carry, that limitation is a number, and that number doesn't matter, Rich will make that limitation lower or higher depending on what he wants for his story.

Rules matters as a "base", but rules accuracy, A.K.A rules' numbers, doesn't matter at all.

[Liquor Box]

Sunny is a beholder/eyeballthing, they can use telekinesis with one of the eyes, that is something based on the rules, rules matters. But telekinesis is a spell with a limitation on the weight it can carry, that limitation is a number, and that number doesn't matter, Rich will make that limitation lower or higher depending on what he wants for his story.

Rules matters as a "base", but rules accuracy, A.K.A rules' numbers, doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.

Not only the numerical, but the details. He cares about his story to be based on D&D rules, that is obvious of course, but he said he doesn't care about the accuracy of that rules in his story. What does that mean if not that he doesn't care about something like telekinesis having a limit of 375 pounds or 400, or 300?
When he use a spell, that spell can be found in the rules, and it generally works in the story as it works in the rules, but not caring about ALL the details, like numerical precise limits and that.

[Dion]

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.

The Giant used the word “accuracy”, and accuracy is often used to describe quantitative measurements (i.e. numbers) and exclude qualitative descriptions.

But not always!.

[Bacon Elemental]

I always assumed Serini was the one carrying the weapons, given that well before we knew of the existence of Eye Tyrants and trollflesh'd halfling guardians everyone seemed pretty certain that the art depicted a large creature and a much smaller creature flying invisibly. Which helps a lot with the margins for gear in this theoretical telekinetic weight budget.

Obviously rich just eyeballed (heheh) it as "A _Beholder's Telekinesis should be able to carry two people's worth of stuff" at the very most, but given how some people were complaining earlier I'm surprised to find how close the limit actually is to the amount of stuff lifted.

[skim172]

Obviously rich just eyeballed (heheh) it as "A _Beholder's Telekinesis should be able to carry two people's worth of stuff" at the very most, but given how some people were complaining earlier I'm surprised to find how close the limit actually is to the amount of stuff lifted.

Does a Beholder's telekinesis work on more than one object at once?

If so, why didn't Sunny telekines-ize Haley along with her bow?

[mjasghar]

There’s a simple explanation for all of this - Sunny took a monster feat similar to Empower Spell-like ability that increased its TK weight limit.
Wtr to why not TK Haley she was awake so probably able to get a save throw, whereas the paladins were unconscious so treated as unattended objects. Naturally, the first priority was to focus on the bow. In addition, yanking Haley up would have risked her falling and hurting herself if dispel eye was needed.
So now everyone can stop arguing. 😉

[danielxcutter]

I… forget the name but I think there actually is a prestige class that improves Telekinesis, and not just spells.

[Metastachydium]

I… forget the name but I think there actually is a prestige class that improves Telekinesis, and not just spells.

Master of the Unseen Hand.

[Dion]

Also, it’s entirely not clear to me how Sunny concentrates on telekinesis to hold Haley’s bow in the air, while simultaneously hitting Haley with an AMF.

[Ionathus]

Whether I am right or not, that is the premise on which the majority of the discussion on this forum is based.

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not

[Metastachydium]

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not

You are a bold man to brave the wrath of the Great Dragon!

[Fyraltari]

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not

Indeed, we do tend to argue about Star Wars a lot.

[Peelee]

A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

The only estimate I saw was for an average Japanese, and the paladons are neither Japanese nor average. Also, on investigation, those numbers were for 17-year-olds.

A middle-aged man who has been in the military all his life is much more likely to be around or above 200. That's just an approximation, but I think it's significantly more likely than 140.

[KorvinStarmast]

In saying that, I think it's very likely that Lien and O-Chul way less than 375 with their gear. The average weight for a japanese man and woman is 137 and 116 pounds respectively, so about 250 total.

What is this "Japan" you speak of?

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all.

As Peelee pointed out he's not keen on story inconsistencies.

If the DnD rules don't matter at all, then this is not a DnD based webcomic.

That's in the general neighborhood of a false dichotomy: there is a spectrum here, not an on/off switch. The rules generally apply. (See the gag about Mr Scruffy gutting the 'almost level 2 commoner' in the sands of the arena).

Not only the numerical, but the details. He cares about his story to be based on D&D rules, that is obvious of course, but he said he doesn't care about the accuracy of that rules in his story. What does that mean if not that he doesn't care about something like telekinesis having a limit of 375 pounds or 400, or 300?

Not only that, but as the world builder/GM for this world, he can make tweaks and adjustments as needed.
And he does. (How vampires work being one of substantial importance for the last book)

Rich has been using some of the rules' more bizarre weirdness as fodder for gags since about strip 0001.

One of my favorite rules jokes was V copying a new spell into the wizard spell book that takes seven pages, due to being a seventh level spell, but it's a Power Word something ...
It's Just One Word Why Does It Need Seven Pages????.
Loved that one.

[Hurkyl]

The only estimate I saw was for an average Japanese, and the paladons are neither Japanese nor average. Also, on investigation, those numbers were for 17-year-olds.

A middle-aged man who has been in the military all his life is much more likely to be around or above 200. That's just an approximation, but I think it's significantly more likely than 140.

The logic of making an estimate based on east Asian body types makes sense given the theming of their lands, and it does provide a more generous starting point for looking at the feasibility of keeping within the limit.

I do agree that a trained fighter is likely to be heavier, but I also expect the average for physically fit (not muscular, just fit) individuals to be less than the average given. (and this gels with some data points I've recently seen elsewhere)

As a data point, I did some searching, and 140 pounds was (just barely) middleweight class (for males) when Judo was introduced into the Olympics in 1964. (I was trying to find something on weight classes for martial artists in Japan, but this was the closest I was able to found after a few minutes)

So 140 is not completely unreasonable. I do find "a fair amount higher" to be more likely.

[Hurkyl]

One of my favorite rules jokes was V copying a new spell into the wizard spell book that takes seven pages, due to being a seventh level spell, but it's a Power Word something ...
It's Just One Word Why Does It Need Seven Pages????.
Loved that one.

It's an amusing gag, but it's only a "rules weirdness" at a superficial level. (AFAIK) the spellbook isn't intended be thought of as a list of incantations, and magic isn't just incantations anyways. Instead, the spellbook is recording the wizards notes on the spell, and mnemonics to assist the wizard in preparing the delicate magics in their head every morning.

Maybe it's better to think of this as poking fun at players who forget that magic is actually supposed to be difficult in-universe.