OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

Instead, the spellbook is recording the wizards notes on the spell, and mnemonics to assist the wizard in preparing the delicate magics in their head every morning.

New headcanon: the Power Word is really, really, really hard to remember, so all seven pages are taken up by the wizard writing it over and over and over and over and over again to commit it to memory.

[Metastachydium]

New headcanon: the Power Word is really, really, really hard to remember, so all seven pages are taken up by the wizard writing it over and over and over and over and over again to commit it to memory.

If this is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind.

[Ionathus]

If this is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind.

That's five whole letters! It would take me years of study to learn that one. Truly, Vaarsuvius's mental capabilities are staggering.

[Psyren]

Also, it’s entirely not clear to me how Sunny concentrates on telekinesis to hold Haley’s bow in the air, while simultaneously hitting Haley with an AMF.

He's holding it above the cone's area, so the TK stays active even when the main eye is open. Eye rays and the cone can be used together, it's just that a target being inside the cone makes shooting rays at it pointless. Or are you asking about how he can concentrate on both? The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

[Fyraltari]

He's holding it above the cone's area, so the TK stays active even when the main eye is open. Eye rays and the cone can be used together, it's just that a target being inside the cone makes shooting rays at it pointless. Or are you asking about how he can concentrate on both? The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

Also, being born with nine eyes all facing different directions probaly helps being good at multitasking.

[Peelee]

If this is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind.

There's more precedent.

[Metastachydium]

That's five whole letters! It would take me years of study to learn that one. Truly, Vaarsuvius's mental capabilities are staggering.

Right? It's not an easy one like the 3rd level Power Word Maladroit!

[Dion]

The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

Isn’t the AMF a spell like ability?

Even though mechanically it’s just opening the eye, doesn’t it still require an action and concentration to activate?

I mean, I am sure this is a plot hole.

[danielxcutter]

The AMF's a supernatural ability, it explicitly doesn't require concentration and even if opening it required an action the eyestalk beams are free action attacks anyways.

[Dion]

the eyestalk beams are free action attacks anyways.

Sure, but there’s a difference between casting telekinesis and maintaining telekinesis…

But if the AMF is supernatural, then I agree that the AMF doesn’t require concentration, AMF can be activated even while carrying paladins or holding a bow.

But Id note that if floaty-eye-thingy-telekinesis doesn’t require concentration to maintain, then Sunny can cast telekinesis as many times as she wants, and can easily carry a whole army of paladins around.

[Ionathus]

Right? It's not an easy one like the 3rd level Power Word Maladroit!

I want "Power Word: Stub" as a cantrip. Thus shall toes of the world quake in fear at your approach.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, all the beholder abilities are (Su) abilities that duplicate spell effects.

Yeah, it's weird.

[Psyren]

Isn’t the AMF a spell like ability?

Even though mechanically it’s just opening the eye, doesn’t it still require an action and concentration to activate?

I mean, I am sure this is a plot hole.

No on all four counts. Do you have the monster manual? It's on page 27. (Not in the SRD for obvious reasons.)

But Id note that if floaty-eye-thingy-telekinesis doesn’t require concentration to maintain, then Sunny can cast telekinesis as many times as she wants, and can easily carry a whole army of paladins around.

The TK does require concentration (works like the spell) and can only lift 325 lbs per use. But because the cone doesn't, it can use both concurrently.

[Dion]

Do you have the monster manual?

Sure, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.

[Psyren]

Sure, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.

Ask the leopard to rip that page out and slide it under the door for you, it'll answer your questions

[Dion]

Ask the leopard to rip that page out and slide it under the door for you, it'll answer your questions

But there is no leopard! Plot hole!

But seriously, it’s most unfortunate that “magic eyeball floaty thingy” isn’t online anywhere so that we can have a better nuanced conversation about this comic.

I mean, if my ability to predict what will happen next in the comic depends on whether the eyestalks are spell like or supernatural abilities, then I think I should have some way of verifying that without risking my life pulling old books off the overloaded shelves in my basement.

[Psyren]

But there is no leopard! Plot hole!

But seriously, it’s most unfortunate that “magic eyeball floaty thingy” isn’t online anywhere so that we can have a better nuanced conversation about this comic.

I mean, if my ability to predict what will happen next in the comic depends on whether the eyestalks are spell like or supernatural abilities, then I think I should have some way of verifying that without risking my life pulling old books off the overloaded shelves in my basement.

Well, I doubt Sunny will TK Haley's bow a second time (especially since she left the room). And the effects of all 8 beams have been revealed in the comic itself now, so you should be good to go without needing the MM.

More importantly however - the Giant generally knows what he's doing, he's played this game quite a bit as I understand.

[MartianInvader]

It took me three or four readings before I realized that Serini's "Nine Ball, corner pocket" comment was probably telling Sunny to cover her escape with the AMF eye. So Elan's distracting requests causing the AMF to turn towards him may end up being significant.

Also, for those talking about concentration: Oots doesn't use 5e rules (it often doesn't use 3.5e rules either, but that's what it's ostensibly based on).

[Dion]

Also, for those talking about concentration: Oots doesn't use 5e rules (it often doesn't use 3.5e rules either, but that's what it's ostensibly based on).

Concentration was a 3.5 rule too.

I mean, it was technically in the rule book, though I’d argue was very poorly specified.

The prohibition on casting spells while maintaining concentration on another spell is one of those rules that may or may not have even existed in 3.5. The rules COULD be interpreted that way.. But it was probably never enforced at any table ever, even if it was intended as a rule.

And the effects of all 8 beams have been revealed in the comic itself now, so you should be good to go without needing the MM.

But her movement rate! What is her movement rate? What happens if she gets in a race with bloodfeast?

[Psyren]

Also, for those talking about concentration: Oots doesn't use 5e rules (it often doesn't use 3.5e rules either, but that's what it's ostensibly based on).

I can't speak for everyone but all my comments pertained to the 3.5 beholder. (Though it's worth noting that the 5e one can also combine its main eye cone with the TK ray, as long as the latter's target is not overlapping with the former's AoE anyway.)

Concentration was a 3.5 rule too.

I mean, it was technically in the rule book, though I’d argue was very poorly specified.

The prohibition on casting spells while maintaining concentration on another spell is one of those rules that may or may not have even existed in 3.5. The rules COULD be interpreted that way.. But it was probably never enforced at any table ever, even if it was intended as a rule.

Even if it wasn't - unlike 5e, 3.5 concentration used your action, so you generally couldn't do both as a practical matter.

But her movement rate! What is her movement rate? What happens if she gets in a race with bloodfeast?

Assuming "her" means Serini - no idea, but should be 20ft.
Assuming "her" means Sunny - also 20ft, which is why V was able to quite literally fly circles around them.
Assuming "her" means Haley - 30ft, and I'm guessing thanks to Elan, Haley will be able to activate her boots.

[Dion]

Assuming "her" means Sunny - also 20ft, which is why V was able to quite literally fly circles around them.

Oh thanks! Now I can look for plot holes without braving the leopard in my basement. I’ll let everyone know if I think I find any.

Wait… I think I found a plot hole!

Isn’t the AMF supposed to be in a cone in front of the buoyant-aberration-ocular-ball? But in the last panel, Sunny is turning just her eye without turning her entire body!

[MartianInvader]

I can't speak for everyone but all my comments pertained to the 3.5 beholder.

Wait, really? I currently own the 5e MM but not 3.5e, and the Beholder entry is on page 27 in 5e! What consistency across versions!

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe it's better to think of this as poking fun at players who forget that magic is actually supposed to be difficult in-universe.

Perhaps. (I am aware of how Vancian magic works)

[Psyren]

Isn’t the AMF supposed to be in a cone in front of the buoyant-aberration-ocular-ball? But in the last panel, Sunny is turning just her eye without turning her entire body!

Technically3.5 doesn't have facing, cones are just aimed

Wait, really? I currently own the 5e MM but not 3.5e, and the Beholder entry is on page 27 in 5e! What consistency across versions!

Yeah it's almost like both books are in alphabetical order

I kid I kid, yeah it's interesting that the increase in flavor text in one corresponded with the loss of statblock size in the other so well.

[Liquor Box]

Not only the numerical, but the details. He cares about his story to be based on D&D rules, that is obvious of course, but he said he doesn't care about the accuracy of that rules in his story. What does that mean if not that he doesn't care about something like telekinesis having a limit of 375 pounds or 400, or 300?
When he use a spell, that spell can be found in the rules, and it generally works in the story as it works in the rules, but not caring about ALL the details, like numerical precise limits and that.

If your point is that he cares more about the big picture rules than the finer details, then I think you are probably right.

What is this "Japan" you speak of?

The only estimate I saw was for an average Japanese, and the paladons are neither Japanese nor average. Also, on investigation, those numbers were for 17-year-olds.

A middle-aged man who has been in the military all his life is much more likely to be around or above 200. That's just an approximation, but I think it's significantly more likely than 140.

While Japan does not exist in the Comic, the Azurites do seem to be based on people from feudal japan in a lot of ways, including how they look. So I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that they are similar in weight as well.

The average Japanese man in their early thirties is 150 pounds, and the average Japanese woman the same age is 113, bringing us to 263 pounds for them both combined.
https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/..._Japanese_2018

If they are not similar to Japanese, the average weight of a human worldwide is 136 pounds, meaning a combined weight of 272 pounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight

Either way that leaves more than a 100 pounds for weapons, armour and equipment.

Where did you get the idea that the average soldier is over 200 pounds? I can't find any data about the weight of soldiers, but I would assumed that they'd be lighter than the ordinary population because their fitness regime prevents them from being overweight.

Of course we could instead look at the rules for human body weight....

[Vikenlugaid]

If your point is that he cares more about the big picture rules than the finer details, then I think you are probably right.




While Japan does not exist in the Comic, the Azurites do seem to be based on people from feudal japan in a lot of ways, including how they look. So I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that they are similar in weight as well.

The average Japanese man in their early thirties is 150 pounds, and the average Japanese woman the same age is 113, bringing us to 263 pounds for them both combined.
https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/..._Japanese_2018

If they are not similar to Japanese, the average weight of a human worldwide is 136 pounds, meaning a combined weight of 272 pounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight

Either way that leaves more than a 100 pounds for weapons, armour and equipment.

Where did you get the idea that the average soldier is over 200 pounds? I can't find any data about the weight of soldiers, but I would assumed that they'd be lighter than the ordinary population because their fitness regime prevents them from being overweight.

Of course we could instead look at the rules for human body weight....

Muscles are heavier than fat.

I think Ochul is likely to be 200 pound or close, he is a really really tough fighter, very highconstitution and probably high strength too, that means he is heavy, he probably is pure muscles.
Lien is maybe lighter, but she should be strong enough and that means weight.

But the real "problem" with the telekinesis on them is that they are two targets.

[hroþila]

We don't know how tall O-Chul or Lien are, and there's a poor correlation between muscle mass and strength in D&D, so there's a lot of wiggle room to make it work.

[Liquor Box]

Muscles are heavier than fat.

I think Ochul is likely to be 200 pound or close, he is a really really tough fighter, very highconstitution and probably high strength too, that means he is heavy, he probably is pure muscles.
Lien is maybe lighter, but she should be strong enough and that means weight.

But the real "problem" with the telekinesis on them is that they are two targets.

Muscles are heavier than fat, but fat people have much more fat than soldiers tend to have extra muscle. There's nothing in the comic to indicate that O-Chul is particularly strong - the geekery thread just says it is 11+. I imagine he is quite strong as a martial character, but not super strong. That is consistent with a lean build.

As for constitution, I don't think a very high constitution has much to do with weight - except maybe that an underweight or overweight person is less healthy and therefore may have less constitution.

I see no reason to assume that O-Chul and Lien are significantlu heavier than the average japanese person (130 pounds) or the average human (135 pounds).

I think the reason people are assuming they will be heavier is because their frame of reference is their own modern western countries, which tend to have much higher average weights than the world average. As I've said, I think it is reasonable to think the paladins are physically and culturally based on Japanese. But if that's not right, there's certainly no reason to assume they are based on modern western people.

I think it is likely that the two of them (with gear) weight well under 375 pounds. Even if it is not likely, it is certainly conceivable.

As a data point, I did some searching, and 140 pounds was (just barely) middleweight class (for males) when Judo was introduced into the Olympics in 1964. (I was trying to find something on weight classes for martial artists in Japan, but this was the closest I was able to found after a few minutes)

Looking at judo fighters is a clever way of thinking about the weights of fighters in DnD. I assume the 140 pounds was the weight class for male middleweights?

[Vikenlugaid]

Muscles are heavier than fat, but fat people have much more fat than soldiers tend to have extra muscle. There's nothing in the comic to indicate that O-Chul is particularly strong - the geekery thread just says it is 11+. I imagine he is quite strong as a martial character, but not super strong. That is consistent with a lean build.

As for constitution, I don't think a very high constitution has much to do with weight - except maybe that an underweight or overweight person is less healthy and therefore may have less constitution.

I see no reason to assume that O-Chul and Lien are significantlu heavier than the average japanese person (130 pounds) or the average human (135 pounds).

I think the reason people are assuming they will be heavier is because their frame of reference is their own modern western countries, which tend to have much higher average weights than the world average. As I've said, I think it is reasonable to think the paladins are physically and culturally based on Japanese. But if that's not right, there's certainly no reason to assume they are based on modern western people.

I think it is likely that the two of them (with gear) weight well under 375 pounds. Even if it is not likely, it is certainly conceivable.



Looking at judo fighters is a clever way of thinking about the weights of fighters in DnD. I assume the 140 pounds was the weight class for male middleweights?

We are talking about ground melee ancient soldiers, they fight with melee weapons and need to be strong to be good at it, they need muscles for that, not like a weightlifter, but more than an average person.

Anyway, like I said, the problem is not on the weight.

[mjasghar]

It’s a medieval equivalent timeline so the idea that most people are going to be fat and thus military are going to be lighter is wrong. If anything they are going to be heavier due to constant melee training because it’s that Str they need to make kills.