How would you do a rock-paper-scissors setup for INT-WIS-CHA casters?

[Greywander]

Let's say you had the option to choose which mental stat to use for your spells, regardless of your class. But casters using one stat were good against casters with another stat, but weak against casters with the third stat. I don't know how you do that, though; spells generally are a one-way interaction, so generally a spell wouldn't care what type of caster you were, of if you were even a caster at all. The only time your casting stat matters is when you cast a spell, not when a spell is cast on you.

Perhaps each casting stat could carry both a bonus and a penalty, such that the bonus of one casting stat would capitalize on the penalty of another casting stat, and non-casters just wouldn't have either a bonus or penalty. I'm just not really sure where to start with this, or even which direction the RPS elemental-esque type system should flow. Does INT beat WIS, or CHA?

Hmm, thinking about it a bit, INT would generally revolve around planning out things ahead of time, so it would be vulnerable to spontaneity that could muck up the plan. So INT casters should be weak to CHA casters. WIS is more experienced and flexible, so it can adapt to spontaneous changes, making it strong against CHA casters. So I suppose INT beats WIS beats CHA beats INT. But what kind of interaction should they have?

[Abracadangit]

Mmmmm I don't know I'd want something like that in my game, to be honest. There's an implicit assumption here that X take on magic will always beat Y take on magic, which will always beat Z take. In my D&D-magiphysics-headcanon, it would be impossible to tell if an archwizard, an archdruid, or an archsorcerer (made that one up, but you get what I mean) would win a magic duel. They're all coming at it from a different angle, and no one approach is inherently better or worse than the others. It'll come down to pure magic skill, cunning, and spellmanship, but the one thing you do know is that it'll be one hell of a show.

It sounds like what you're embarking on is the beginning of a mageduel subsystem, because that would organically explain why one magical approach "trumps" or "beats" another, even though you're still sussing out exactly what that means. So then my follow-up idea would be to categorize spells instead of spellcasters, for purposes of RPS interactions. For example, let's say there's three families of spells in your hypothetical mageduel system: Attacks, Defenses, and Utilities. Attacks are your Fire Bolts and Magic Missiles, Defenses are your Shields and Absorb Elements, and Utilities are Mirror Image, summons, Fly, and other neat tricks to help you. Now there's already a hierarchy in place -- you want to Defend when your opponent Attacks, you want to Attack when your opponent tries to pop a Utility spell so they're effectively defenseless, and you want to cast Utilities on yourself when your opponent Defends so they just wasted Shield for nothing.

That was all VERY hypothetical, but hopefully it made some kind of sense. To me that's a more intriguing and lively RPS system for dueling spellcasters, because it FEELS like a mageduel from a fantasy novel. You toss lightning at me, so I conjure a mound of earth before me to take the lightning. You blast it into sand, which I whip into a whirlwind at you, and while you're busy contending with that, I summon my spinning blades of light... etc. Doesn't play very tidily with action economy, but you get what I'm saying.

As for an INT-WIS-CHA RPS, I don't know how I'd tackle it. Maybe INT is better at reading and predicting spells (a la Counterspell), WIS is better at maintaining multiple spells with Zen-like mastery, and CHA is better at breaking through counterspells/defenses with emotional surges of power? Or something? Again, I probably wouldn't field such a system in my games. But having said that, I wish you the best of luck, and you'll probably come up with something rad.

[Ryton]

This reminds of how magic used to work in some of the older Fire Emblem games.

Unless you're looking to develop an entire subsystem for magical interactions, the simplest solution might be just to give advantage on spell attacks and disadvantage on saves for the magic that one group is strong against.

An alternative system you could do instead of Wis/Int/Cha is Divine/Arcane/Nature. You'd then have to figure out what the repercussions of, say, Hexadin would be, since it's Arcane and Divine, but that way could be neat too.

[Pex]

INT beats WIS with logic
WIS beats CHA seeing through the shenanigans
CHA beats INT with paradoxes

[Greywander]

There's an implicit assumption here that X take on magic will always beat Y take on magic, which will always beat Z take.

the simplest solution might be just to give advantage on spell attacks and disadvantage on saves for the magic that one group is strong against.

I don't think I'm looking for something quite that strong. Making it too one-sided means there's no longer any skill involved, only bringing the correct type to the table that beats your opponent's type. I'm thinking something more along the lines of just gives a slight edge to the one with the stronger type.

Here's a rough example of something like what I'm thinking, though I have no clue if this is remotely balanced. We can even separate this from being a specific type of caster and instead just make it to do with ability scores (so any character can do these, not just casters).

Let's say that INT mod times per long rest, you can substitute a d20 roll with either a 15 or a 5 (plus whatever modifiers). This includes rolls you make, attack rolls made against you, or saving throws made against one of your abilities. So INT characters specialize in knowing ahead of time what the result will be, and planning around that.

Now let's say CHA mod times per long rest, you can reroll any of those same rolls. Keep in mind the INT feature must be used before rolling, while the CHA feature is used after, so using the CHA feature will overwrite the INT result, rendering it useless.

Finally, let's say WIS mod times per long rest, when those same rolls use multiple dice, you can choose which one gets used. This applies after the CHA feature, again rendering it useless (or worse than useless, if the reroll was a better result for the WIS character). However, the INT feature doesn't feature a second die, or any dice at all (though you could treat it as a single die showing a face value of 5 or 15), so the WIS effect can't be used.

Again, no clue if this is balanced, but it demonstrates the kind of effect I'm looking for. While these effects aren't limited to casters, casters would have the highest mental stats, and thus the most uses, and these features would likely see the best use with high level spells (or defending yourself against such).

[Dr.Samurai]

Intelligence can convince people to detach from traditional wisdom, so Intelligence beats Wisdom.
Wisdom can see through the BS that Charisma tries to pull, so Wisdom beats Charisma.
Charisma can dupe smart people by taking advantage of their open-mindedness, so Charisma beats Intelligence.

Not sure how to actually implement this though.

Your suggestion is interesting but I'm not sure how it would work. Could you provide an example?

[Greywander]

Your suggestion is interesting but I'm not sure how it would work. Could you provide an example?

Here's a couple examples. First, some non-spell examples that can apply to non-casters.

You make an attack with a weapon. You use your INT to force the die roll to be a 15, plus modifiers, practically insuring a hit unless the enemy's AC is very high. But sometimes a 15 isn't enough...
You make an attack with a weapon. You have disadvantage because you are blinded, but use your WIS to choose the better of the two results, overcoming your disadvantage through superior experience.
You make an attack with a weapon. You roll poorly, so you use your CHA to reroll, getting a better result through sheer determination.

You run into some ball bearings and make a DEX save. Basically the same as above, but now applying to a saving throw instead of an attack roll.
You make an Athletics check to climb up a cliff. Halfway up, you need to make another Athletics check, and don't want to fall. Again, same as above, but now applying to an ability check.

You cast Disintegrate. You use your INT to force a 5 on the saving throw, practically insuring a failure, unless the enemy's save bonuses are very high.
You cast Disintegrate. The target has advantage on the saving throw because they took the Dodge action, so you use your WIS to choose the worse of the two results.
You cast Disintegrate. The target rolls high on their save, so you use CHA to force a reroll.

An enemy mage casts Dimension Door to escape, so you Counterspell. You use your INT to make the Counterspell check a 15 plus modifiers, but the enemy uses CHA to force a reroll, nullifying your 15.
An enemy mage casts Dimension Door to escape, so you Counterspell. You roll well on the Counterspell check, so the enemy uses CHA to force you to reroll. You use WIS to take your original result.
(Technically, the way I wrote it out, you shouldn't be able to use these abilities on someone else's ability checks, but I do think it should apply to Counterspell. I'm just not sure how to properly frame the rule to work that way.)

Basically, it comes down to:
[You/your target] makes a(n) [ability check/attack roll/saving throw] and [you/your target] uses INT to force the result to be [5/15]. [You/your target] uses CHA to reroll, nullifying the INT effect, so [you/your target] uses WIS to take the original result, nullifying the CHA effect.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like these. INT is kind of in the weakest position, since it needs to be used first. Everyone else can just wait for you to use your INT effect, then nullify it. But INT is pretty reliable when you do use it and it doesn't get nullified. CHA is in a pretty good position, since you can wait to use it until after you get a bad result, but a reroll isn't guarantied to succeed. WIS is interesting, because you generally can't use it most of the time (if the roll doesn't have advantage or disadvantage), but what it does do is let you clutch through those bad rolls more easily, making you more reliable in a tight spot.

[Foolwise]

Unless you plan on creating a weapon triagle for swords->axes->staves then this will just be one more example of spellcaster dominance over martials

[Greywander]

Unless you plan on creating a weapon triagle for swords->axes->staves then this will just be one more example of spellcaster dominance over martials

Yeah, it's an issue that this will disproportionately benefit casters, since their mental scores will be higher. That's a separate issue, however. The logical solution to that would be to come up with a similar set of bonuses for the physical scores. I was thinking maybe STR could relate to attack rolls, DEX to ability checks, and CON to saves, though I'm not sure how, and I'd be worried this would get too busy.

Honestly, I kind of agree that casters are a bit too strong compared to martials, at higher levels at least. I think the ultimate solution to that problem is some kind of general nerf to casters. Personally, I think spell slots of 6th+ level should regenerate more slowly. I'm kind of a fan of the "vacation", a week-long rest that mostly restricts those features to once per adventure. No idea how that would work with spell points, except to have two pools for spell points: one for 1st - 5th level spells, and one for 6th+ level spells. Or maybe some hybrid system, with spell points for 1st - 5th level spells, and spell slots for 6th+ level spells.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly, I kind of agree that casters are a bit too strong compared to martials, at higher levels at least. I think the ultimate solution to that problem is some kind of general nerf to casters. Personally, I think spell slots of 6th+ level should regenerate more slowly. I'm kind of a fan of the "vacation", a week-long rest that mostly restricts those features to once per adventure. No idea how that would work with spell points, except to have two pools for spell points: one for 1st - 5th level spells, and one for 6th+ level spells. Or maybe some hybrid system, with spell points for 1st - 5th level spells, and spell slots for 6th+ level spells.

Blue, but mobile:

Reverse warlock casting. Levels 1-5 are normal. But 6-9 you get one auto-leveling slot, refreshing on SR. Cast a teleport? That's your high level spell for the SR. And some don't refresh until the spell ends. Cast simulacrum or true polymorph or shape change? You don't get the slot back until the effect ends.

/Blue

[kazaryu]

Let's say you had the option to choose which mental stat to use for your spells, regardless of your class. But casters using one stat were good against casters with another stat, but weak against casters with the third stat. I don't know how you do that, though; spells generally are a one-way interaction, so generally a spell wouldn't care what type of caster you were, of if you were even a caster at all. The only time your casting stat matters is when you cast a spell, not when a spell is cast on you.

Perhaps each casting stat could carry both a bonus and a penalty, such that the bonus of one casting stat would capitalize on the penalty of another casting stat, and non-casters just wouldn't have either a bonus or penalty. I'm just not really sure where to start with this, or even which direction the RPS elemental-esque type system should flow. Does INT beat WIS, or CHA?

Hmm, thinking about it a bit, INT would generally revolve around planning out things ahead of time, so it would be vulnerable to spontaneity that could muck up the plan. So INT casters should be weak to CHA casters. WIS is more experienced and flexible, so it can adapt to spontaneous changes, making it strong against CHA casters. So I suppose INT beats WIS beats CHA beats INT. But what kind of interaction should they have?

as far as how you do it, to some extent its already a thing. spells that target wis are typically going to be far more effective against cha casters than the other two, and particularly ineffective against wis casters. specifically because of how saves are calculated. so like, sure, a wizard gets wis save proficiency. but wizards also tend to care a lot about dex and con. so its not unheard of you have a wizard that maxes out at a +8 to wis saves at level 20, whereas a wis caster is likely to have a +11. so thats...ya know, one way to set it up. give int casters primarily spells that target the mental stat that wis casters don't have proficiency in (and potentially adjust save proficiencies accordingly.

i agree with you about the int>wis>cha>int

[Mastikator]

In rock paper scissors both players attack at the same time, so the mechanic works. In D&D each player/NPC takes turns and can only use their reaction out of turn. I don't think you can have a satisfying mechanic for this because of how the turn based instantaneous spells work, for example you can't block someone's Fireball with Create or Destroy Water. Besides Magic Missile and Shield the only anti-spell is Counterspell which blocks everything.

I think you need to a list of spells add to every spell an optional reaction that allows you to block the enemy's spell with your opposing spell. THEN INT > WIS > CHA > INT can take into effect by giving the better one advantage on their roll (roll 1d20 + spell level + ability score, if the defender wins the spell is blocked, if the attacker wins the spell is not blocked).

I think something like this: "You cast Disintegrate. You use your INT to force a 5 on the saving throw, practically insuring a failure, unless the enemy's save bonuses are very high." just makes you invincible against martials, it doesn't do jack to make you better against wisdom based casters.

The problem is you can't do rock paper scissors unless you first change how D&Ds turn based combat works for casters. So this is an enormous undertaking and unless you want a back and forth dance between casters then it's not going to work.

[Kane0]

Rock casters can't be proficient in Paper saves, and so on.
Rock casters cannot cast spells that target Paper or Scissors saves, and so on. Alternatively, spells that target Paper or Scissors saves offer advantage, and so on.
Martials are under no such limits.

Of course this will necessitate restructuring how spellcasting and spells work because of the uneven frequency between save types and the fact that they can't currently be interchanged. What you would want to work towards is a situation where each caster type has two primary options: Target AC with a spell attack; or target their preferred save with a DC spell. Targeting saves other than their favoured kind without penalty should be a rarity and considered a notable ability.

This in turn also opens up an avenue for martials by allowing proficiency in any save and also *not* locking their abilities to targeting only a single save. A caster might be confident against their Rock/Paper/Scissors match-ups, but a noncasting opponent is always a wildcard beyond the usual 'stay out of stabbing range' and 'maintain concentration'.