Appropriate mystical gift for a eunuch?

[Draconi Redfir]

Just an idle thought as it comes:

By sacrificing your genitalia in an occult ritual, you have freed your mind from burdens of the flesh. Former temptations such as lust, conflict, and a paternal instinct have been freed from your mind due to the sacrifice and magics of the ritual. By doing this, you have unlocked your mind to new opportunities and possibilities, allowing to grow beyond what you could have been before.

You gain a +1 trait bonus to will saves. In addition, you may learn one additional cantrip from any class and treat it as a cantrip of your class and level. You may still use this cantrip even if you do not have levels in a spellcasting class.



A cantrip might not feel like a whole lot, but i don't want to go so far as to say a 1st level spell, that might be a bit much?

I'm just going to re-post this here as i feel like it's something that focuses more on the point of the idea, that being the magical ritual and why it happened to begin with. Unlocking magical potential, rather then any other meaning.

if nothing else, it's a good jumping off point i feel.

[mabriss lethe]

OK. so. Here's the deal. In a vacuum, it's impossible to assess the value what you want. In that situation where we're assessing pure mechanics, becoming a eunuch does not have an established mechanic. In that sense, the answer to what an appropriate benefit would be is "Nothing" You're not losing anything mechanically, so trying to justify additional power seems bordering on munchkinry. That's why you're seeing a lot of pushback. Ultimately, removing a character's dangling unmentionables is purely fluff, and works best when coupled with crunch.

At the simplest level, it can just be backstory fluff that helps explain some in game character choices, but otherwise offers no tangible benefit. It was the cost your outsider patron asked of your character to become a warlock, or whatever. (I used a similar backstory for a goblin warlock I named Gragga the Maimed, his patron was a Barghest and wouldn't seal the deal without a "pound of flesh" and bit off two of his fingers on one hand.) It becomes colorful, but mechanically inconsequential.

If you want more, then you should flesh it out with mechanical costs. If it's going to be primarily an in game social stigma you can treat it as a flaw by adding some relevant mechanical penalties. perhaps a penalty to intimidation, as the fantasy society of World X deems eunuchs as less masculine and therefore less overtly threatening. For a flaw level penalty, you can get a bonus feat. but still notice that the loss of his twig n' berries is still fluff to justify crunch.

You want it to be the culmination of a ritual empowerment? Alright. It becomes the symbolic act that seals a deal, but the deal being struck needs a more mechanically tangible sacrifice. XP and/or GP are good ones. Enacting the ritual is more than just a chalk circle and a sharp knife. You need to burn rare incense to attract the attention of the being you're dealing with. expensive oils to purify and consecrate your body for the ritual. The ritual itself is spiritually taxing (XP cost) The end result might look like a weapon of legacy power or one of the various other ritual benefits. You could rework Necropolitan as a baseline for costs/reward. There are a lot of options, but it ultimately comes down to balancing mechanical gains with tangible mechanical costs. the Eunuch part should always reside on the fluff part of the equation

[redking]

OK. so. Here's the deal. In a vacuum, it's impossible to assess the value what you want. In that situation where we're assessing pure mechanics, becoming a eunuch does not have an established mechanic. In that sense, the answer to what an appropriate benefit would be is "Nothing" You're not losing anything mechanically, so trying to justify additional power seems bordering on munchkinry. That's why you're seeing a lot of pushback. Ultimately, removing a character's dangling unmentionables is purely fluff, and works best when coupled with crunch.

You aren't the first person to raise this matter in this thread. In my OP, I asked for suggestions, and also asked people to think about a Level Adjustment.

What do you give? Assume say LA 2 or 3.

Given the amount of munchkinry on these boards, I do not think that is the reason for the pushback.

You want it to be the culmination of a ritual empowerment? Alright. It becomes the symbolic act that seals a deal, but the deal being struck needs a more mechanically tangible sacrifice. XP and/or GP are good ones. Enacting the ritual is more than just a chalk circle and a sharp knife. You need to burn rare incense to attract the attention of the being you're dealing with. expensive oils to purify and consecrate your body for the ritual. The ritual itself is spiritually taxing (XP cost) The end result might look like a weapon of legacy power or one of the various other ritual benefits. You could rework Necropolitan as a baseline for costs/reward. There are a lot of options, but it ultimately comes down to balancing mechanical gains with tangible mechanical costs. the Eunuch part should always reside on the fluff part of the equation

I was thinking that this would happen at character creation rather than something that occurs mid-career. The LA takes care of the XP component you speak of. I don't see how anyone can object to an LA 1 - 3 mystic eunuch if they have no problem with player character races with an LA of the same.

What benefits would you grant a eunuch that was subjected to a ritual castration? That's the question in my OP. Few replies have even tried to engage it.

[mabriss lethe]

If you're looking for something that is appropriate to a starting character, maybe refluff and tweak Primordial Giant from Secrets of Xendrix to apply to a humanoid character. It's LA+0 iirc, is appropriately magical, and won't break game balance too much.

If you want a template with higher LA that just hands you a prepackaged selection of magic look at Phrenic and its HD based PLAs at +2.

[Draconi Redfir]

What benefits would you grant a eunuch that was subjected to a ritual castration?

Well if you're looking for something with a LA +1 or 2 and increases their magical abilites... More spell slots? spells known? Let them learn spells from other classes?

just expanding on my cantrip idea here.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by redking
Since most magi are thus castrated, the eunuch magi will not countenance magi that have not joined their "fellowship" via ritual castration.

This could have some interesting effects on the power dynamics in an empire, if the eunuch magi are jealous of both magical and temporal power.

They may hunt intact males that exhibit any trace of that same power—but what happens if a member of the royal family begins to show something similar?

Originally Posted by redking
It would impact every aspect of that male's life.

This permanently closes off any possibility of naturally fathered children, which in effect negates a great many future timelines for that individual. Perhaps there’s a tradeoff for the lost timelines?

Perhaps by removing all possibility of descendants, some aspect of the mage’s essence is compressed somehow—rather than being drawn out into the far future through many descendants, the potential energy is concentrated into a single lifetime, past a certain critical threshold?

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir
By doing this, you have unlocked your mind to new opportunities and possibilities, allowing to grow beyond what you could have been before.

Perhaps without the distractions, this could also have the effect of a +2 to Concentration checks when casting spells? Just one potential bonus.

[Thurbane]

I honestly don't get why some people are so strongly attacking the OPs premise of this homebrew. No one is going to force you to sit in at his table and play under these rules, for crying out loud!

This is why tying a mechanical effect to the severity of the trauma is impossible. Would you give such a benefit to a paraplegic? As large? Smaller? How much larger or smaller? Such a person would similarly be unable to have sex. Would a quadriplegic get double the bonus? Either are suffering a greater trauma than a eunuch. Do you do this with every trauma? Is a lost finger worth a +1 sense motive?

Sorry, but that seems a bit of a weird objection to me. The game already has massively disparate levels of sacrifice (reqs) to reward (feats, PrCs etc.).

Obviously if you are home-brewing anything, you weight up cost and benefit as you see fit. That's the very premise of homebrew.

Sure, you might run into balance issues at either end of the scale, but as I already mentioned - disparity is already well and truly entrenched in most official mechanics of the game (class disparity, some feats being massively more powerful or useful than others etc.).

If the main argument is "Well, if you make the benefit too good, everyone will take it!" ... you might as well say "Why on Earth would anyone play something other than a Tier 1 caster?".

If the objection is "This is a bit squicky, and something I wouldn't be comfortable with in my game"- fair point, but that's going to vary massively by group.

One would hope with anything of this nature, a DM has a feel for his group and what might be problematic. Same way you mightn't introduce some stuff from BoVD without sounding it out with the group; or introducing the BoEF without consultation.

[redking]

Well if you're looking for something with a LA +1 or 2 and increases their magical abilites... More spell slots? spells known? Let them learn spells from other classes?

I am soliciting ideas. So have at it.

This could have some interesting effects on the power dynamics in an empire, if the eunuch magi are jealous of both magical and temporal power.

They may hunt intact males that exhibit any trace of that same power—but what happens if a member of the royal family begins to show something similar?

Interesting plot thread. The heir to the throne, the only son, has developed magical powers. By law and custom, the crown prince must be ritually castrated. Now what?

Perhaps by removing all possibility of descendants, some aspect of the mage’s essence is compressed somehow—rather than being drawn out into the far future through many descendants, the potential energy is concentrated into a single lifetime, past a certain critical threshold?

Concentrated virility.

I honestly don't get why some people are so strongly attacking the OPs premise of this homebrew. No one is going to force you to sit in at his table and play under these rules, for crying out loud!

Right on. Eunuchs make for great tropes.

[Rynjin]

mystic eunuchs are an interesting character concept, either NPC or PC. Raistlin sacrificed his ability see normally for the magic. I honestly think Raistlin as a eunuch has much more pathos.

Yeah, Raistlin was indeed a character defined by his sex drive and virility, losing his "manhood" really would have impacted his character and how they interacted with the world.

[redking]

Yeah, Raistlin was indeed a character defined by his sex drive and virility, losing his "manhood" really would have impacted his character and how they interacted with the world.

Yes, actually. Perhaps you have not read the Dragonlance novels carefully.

I was just thinking how much more interesting Raistlin would have been if his pact with Fistandantilus involved sacrificing his junk and becoming a eunuch. That would better explain the butthurt experienced by Raistlin when Caramon fraternized with women. Then when Raistlin defeats Fistandantilus after traveling back in time, he can actually have a physical relationship with Crysania.

Raistlin's involuntary celibacy looms large. Formalizing it by making Raistlin a mystic eunuch would not be a radical departure.

[Rynjin]

Yes, actually. Perhaps you have not read the Dragonlance novels carefully.

Raistlin is a horny, jealous incel, yes. He was not by any measure of the word "virile" and his entire sexual frustration stems from already having what he views as a physical inability to get a woman.

Him being a eunuch makes this LESS interesting, not more, as it turns this false perception ("I'm a sub-8 male, I'll never get a girl =(") into one that's more justified.

Giving up his junk for power at that point is not a "sacrifice" as he already believes he's undesirable and will never get to use it anyway.

[redking]

Raistlin is a horny, jealous incel, yes. He was not by any measure of the word "virile" and his entire sexual frustration stems from already having what he views as a physical inability to get a woman.

Virile is your word, not mine, so I don't have to contend with it.

Him being a eunuch makes this LESS interesting, not more, as it turns this false perception ("I'm a sub-8 male, I'll never get a girl =(") into one that's more justified.

Yeah but I am talking about "the sacrifice for the magic", something that Raistlin talks about all the time. Caramon's reaction would be gold.

Giving up his junk for power at that point is not a "sacrifice" as he already believes he's undesirable and will never get to use it anyway.

Not while Raistlin occupies the omega male rungs of society. But when Raistlin grows in power (and attractiveness to women), his sacrifice will be felt keenly. Later, Raistlin journeys into the past to take back his junk from Fistandantilus, to whom he sacrificed his junk in the first place.

[Rynjin]

Virile is your word, not mine, so I don't have to contend with it.

Virile is my word, to which you said "Yes, actually" so...yes, actually, you do.

[redking]

Virile is my word, to which you said "Yes, actually" so...yes, actually, you do.

Seems unneccesarily tendentious.

Yeah, Raistlin was indeed a character defined by his sex drive and virility, losing his "manhood" really would have impacted his character and how they interacted with the world.

Here you go then.

[OracleofWuffing]

I was trying to think of an overly complicated arrangement of Ice Assassins, but got distracted and arrived at the conclusion that it's probably not going to be enough to just restrict one from being able to repair themself after the ritual, if you're going to focus on the boon coming from the issue of not being able to have natural offspring. Wish and Miracle would conceivably allow, uh, conception, without needing the requisite pieces. Sure, it's not on the "Pre-Approved List" of valid uses, so there's room for results to be interpreted in an unfavorable light, but the option's there. It's kind of like an awkward combination of Summon Monster 1, Lesser Planar Binding, and some researched spell to make up for the fact that you're summoning something pretty specific that doesn't exist, not exactly out of line for the level 9 reality warping spells specifically designed to warp reality. Wouldn't even need a mate if you wanna skip childbirth, no one likes childbirth.

Okay, jokey unrealistic silly idea that would either not fly in actual play at all, or get some really twisted unexpected reactions, done. Getting back down to Earth.

The Warlock package giggle includes making pacts with extraplanar powers to obtain supernatural powers, it would not be out of line that either some or all Warlocks (or, Sorcerers, if you want to remain core) in a custom setting had that ritual done as part of their pact, and their class features are the benefit of the pact. I mention that just as service because I still don't understand the impact. Since that's probably not enough for you, well... If you still want a +2 LA benefit, just give it to them. They do this, they can pick a +1 or +2 LA template and apply its benefits. Wizards aren't the only people that would make a sacrifice for more power, and Fighters sometimes have genitalia, so I don't see why whatever force that grants powers would exclusively target casters, especially if we don't know what that force is or why it desires this ritual.

If you really want a catch all, single answer... Well, part of me sees Sanctified the Wicked as a spell that metaphorically causes an [Evil] creature to castrate itself through a year-long ritual, so... Change a bunch of the words on the Sanctified Creature template, and make it something that can be applied without alignment restrictions while keeping special attacks. You make nearby hostile creatures take -2 to attacks, AC, and saves, you get a magic circle against Something or Other ability, only real difficult call to make is what type of weapon your natural and wielded weapons count for overcoming damage reduction.

[redking]

Wizards aren't the only people that would make a sacrifice for more power, and Fighters sometimes have genitalia, so I don't see why whatever force that grants powers would exclusively target casters, especially if we don't know what that force is or why it desires this ritual.

The Unsullied are eunuch slave soldiers from the Game of Thrones setting. While their castration is not part of a magical ritual, it is central their transformation into fearless warriors. If you wanted to extend the theme, you could have castrati bards as well.

For the purpose of this thread, I am thinking only about male mystic eunuchs. While I am primarily concerned with the arcane spellcasting classes, I could easily see warlocks being this too, as you mention.