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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Malaysia

    Default Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    For obvious reasons I'm going to be a little cagey with specifics but I really feel like I need a second opinion, especially from those with practical experience in running and/or participating in RPGs.

    I feel like our current campaign sessions (my first TTRPG campaign ever, D&D 5E) involve a lot of wasted time and therefore little of interest occurring. This doesn't happen in every session, but our last few have felt especially bad.

    Example, modified for privacy.

    The party is hiding in a building. A giant (not sure what type) is outside wrecking things, and we need to figure out what to do. "Charlie", playing a rogue, suggests sneaking out to observe the giant. This leads "Bob" the fighter to say he wants to fight the giant head on. "Adam" the sorcerer says he can cast invisibility on two people, causing Bob to change his plan to one of escorting Charlie on the recon mission. This leads to at least twenty minutes of back and forth which doesn't feel meaningful or engaging. It feels like we've overcomplicated something simple. If I don't have a strong opinion I just okay the first plan that seems to make sense.

    What eventually ends up happening is that all four of us exit the building. The giant either isn't aware or considers us beneath notice, the DM was intentionally vague on that, and we just skip town to escape what seems like an impossible fight. Charlie and I are of the opinion that we were wasting time, but both of us are new players. This is literally our first campaign. Adam and Bob seem a lot more experienced in D&D as a whole, including previous editions. Adam especially likes to come up with creative schemes that are sometimes fun and effective, but I feel sometimes things just get convoluted with him. Adam also tends to talk the most, and is usually the first to answer when the DM asks "what do you want to do?". As a counterpoint, the rest of us have a tendency to sit around with question marks floating above our heads. So Adam does get things moving, but it's a coinflip as to whether or not he'll start a ten minute ramble of trying to cover every single possibility, which can get quite outlandish and tedious.

    I also have a tendency to get bored during the mandatory recon sessions that occur every time we find a new location that may or may not have enemies and dangers in it. I know why recon is important, but the way it plays out is just dull. Recon player moves, DM reveals and/or tells him what's there. The two of them just have their own little back and forth while I sit quietly and question my choice of hobbies.

    It's not all bad. Sometimes we have interesting encounters (both combat and non-combat), go to interesting places, and meet interesting people. But when the dull feeling sinks in, where we're sitting around spending half an hour on a course of action, or one of Adam's schemes that go nowhere, it really kills my enthusiasm. We meet once a week, and spend about four hours playing.

    To make things worse, we are playing online. I think that makes our communication a little stilted, with a lot of awkward pauses, though that might not be the biggest factor.

    I really just don't know. When I review our session notes and think about how little we actually achieve, it feels off. But yeah, this is my first campaign and I don't know if my feelings indicate that something is actually wrong. Maybe it gets better as I get more familiar with the game. Maybe my expectations are off. Maybe my approach is wrong.
    Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.

    General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Jan 2019
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Decisions: As a new player, coming up with a plan can be challenging. It's also hard to sugest something different over what the established players may come up with. If something is suggested that sounds good, push for it. Maybe even tell the DM, I'm doing "this" and go do it... push the others to do what was suggested rather than debate yet another option.

    Recon: Is the recon really mandatory? Can't you just move in sometimes as a group and be cautious? When recon is planned out and acted on, was it always worthwhile? If not, maybe things can be done a bit differently. Does the rogue really have a much better stealth than everyone else in the group, or other abilities that make it much more effective for him to be on his own?

    Suggestions: Talk to the DM. Tell him that you are finding the game really slow, and you don't like the single player getting all of the action, while the rest of you do nothing every session. He should be able to make changes that pick up the pace, or involve more of the group. He can also suggest to the group that they are spending/wasting too much time with discussion and encourage them to act.

    It's important that everyone feels involved, and everyone has fun!
    Last edited by Tarmor; 2021-10-16 at 06:09 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Feb 2008
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    Italy
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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    it may just be a matter of different tastes. our gaming group has long planning sessions. generally, if we can plan for a big climatic fight in advance, we may spend a whole session preparing for the fight. and we like it this way.
    for some people, planning is more thrilling than actually executing the plan.
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Sep 2017
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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Veteran RPGer here; been playing various TTRPGs for over 20 years.


    There have been a number of times in which the group will plan for over 2 hours of a 4 hour session. For the GM seeing how you formulate the plan and figure in contingencies is very important to the story. Stating the plan, the desired outcome, and listing out a few suggestions on how to accomplish the plan takes time in a social settings like ANY TTRPG. More players mean even more communication and sharing of spotlight.

    That whole thing with the giant could have easily gone to crap or split the party. By planning and streamlining said plan, the GM realized the encounter was pointless to actually play out. As you came up with the plan the parameters changed when the spell caster said they could drop invis on 2 people. This in turn caused the fighter to alter their idea. Groups must discuss a plan of attack so everyone knows the general course of action.

    It sounds like Adam comes up with the plan in order to move the game forward. What would happen if he didn't suggest something. You can also suggest a plan. Or just state " That bit sounds too complex. Let's not do that." when Adam goes off on a tangent. The rest of us have a tendency to sit around with question marks floating above our heads. Adam's plans are better than not saying anything.


    I have had gaming sessions where we are start in a dungeon the whole session is the next room over. 4 hours to make it less than 40' in game. First we disarm traps and unlock the door, then we kick in the door, skill checks. Oh look an ambush! Cleric was caught off guard and misses round one. One badugy runs for help, more enemies pour into the room on round 4. 7 to 9 round of combat later ( each one taking 10 minutes). We patch ourselves up, loot the bodies, notice a secret panel. Oh a chest. It's trapped. Attempt to disarm. Lock is too complex to pick. Force the lock/smash the chest. Find a magic item, try to identify it. More skill checks. "What's that noise" the scent of death or maybe the noise has attracted some kind of abomination from elsewhere in the dungeon. Combat #2, same room. 4 rounds later the "Thing" is dead, the rogue is poisoned, the fighter is at 1/3 hp, and the wizard is practically out of any useful spell. 4 to 5 real life hours, no more than 1 hour in world time and the characters are only 40' from where they started the session. And there are 3 to 4 more levels of this dungeon to go. And the party is running on fumes.

    What was accomplished? Almost nothing. But it sounds awesome, and the players have fun. As long as a group of people show up and have fun the game accomplished everything it was ever meant to do.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Jul 2021
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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    I'd say the golden advice. Talk to the gm. They are probably gonna help you there.

    Btw

    This is might pretty normal in dnd. But not necessarily every ttrpg. Iirc there's systems like blades in the dark where (correct me if I'm wrong) there's mechanics that make planning easier. And others.

    And even then not every group likes planning. It's a spectrum from no planning and spending multiple sessions planning but most people are in the middle.

    Back on topic talk to the gm. That's 1 of the best pieces of advice in the hobby.
    Just a note i got adhd and autism.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Talk to your group of you're not enjoying it. This is very much not how I'm used to playing RPGs, where we tend to forget scouting and just go with the first reasonable idea somebody has.

    On the other hand, we liked playing speed chess with the GM, where actions were devised quickly and anything could be solved if half the party invested in Bluff and Diplomacy. I also don't like dungeon crawls, and when I run recon is much more about the party splitting up to chase down various leads than the Rogue going around the dungeon on their own.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Gonna add my voice to the chorus of "having a singular dedicated scout ain't normal". Best recon you can really get is have the Rogue or whoever wants to scout move ahead of the party about 30-60 feet while you creep up behind as well. He can give you early warning, you're within shouting distance, but not close enough to **** up their stealth.

    Keeps things moving and will completely eliminate the 2 hours of tedious bull**** you mentioned.

    The problem with "Adam" is definitely a you problem. Every party needs a pusher, and it's great that Adam is there to be that guy, but the pusher should never be the ONLY person pushing. You and others at the table need to step up as well. Even if you're not a planner, you know what? Just DO something.

    Sometimes it goes to ****, sometimes it don't. Not every door needs to be a chore.

    Honestly it might do you well to introduce your party to the Dwarven Door Game (<--- rules inside! they're simple!). It'll liven things up if nothing else.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    I will chime in again. Scouting used to be very common. I am surprised by this thread. Sir Clank-Clank in the plate mail will alert every single enemy in the dungeon and will prevent all possible chance of a surprise round. And enemies will try to set up ambushes and group up together. That means you need a scout to spot the ambushes giving the party a fair shot again.


    Since you are playing 5e, there are a few rules that will make it easier for the group. Assume average rolls for one. Use passive perception checks. The scout has 10+ skill, the guard has 10+ perception. This way the GM can just map it out and say the scout sees this. Having the scout roll, then having the guard roll an opposed check is 100% a waste of time. passives exist for a reason.

    Also, it would appear your GM hasn't taught the scout the most valuable lesson. Don't split the party. If the scout goes 2 encounters ahead and gets spotted he faces 2 encounters alone and dies an unfair death. Even scouting 3 or 4 rooms ahead then triggering an encounter is horrible. Scout only the next room to make sure there isn't a trap or an ambush. Then the whole party needs to move forward and secure the location. Rinse and repeat.

    Finally there are spells to help the party. There is a lvl 2 spell on the druid and ranger list called Pass without Trace. It gives +10 stealth to the entire party. Everyone is now a super scout. Skip the scouting phase.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Aug 2008
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    Malaysia

    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Yeah I'll definitely try to be more vocal and proactive in the sessions, see what that does. To be clear, I didn't feel dragged down in every session, but the past two or three have definitely felt slow and fruitless. I feel like we sometimes get these complex and open-ended situations that cause Charlie and I, as new* players, to let Adam and sometimes Bob take the lead.

    *We've known of D&D since we were kids, read some novels, watched some videos, and played a bunch of D&D-themed video games, but didn't actually play the game itself until this campaign.
    Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.

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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    I will chime in again. Scouting used to be very common. I am surprised by this thread. Sir Clank-Clank in the plate mail will alert every single enemy in the dungeon and will prevent all possible chance of a surprise round. And enemies will try to set up ambushes and group up together. That means you need a scout to spot the ambushes giving the party a fair shot again.
    Not everybody plays dungeon crawls. Plus not every group has somebody in heavy armour. I suspect that in general the less you play crawls the less likely your group is to scout.

    Plus at least one of my groups decided that sending a about was stupid, because they'd get mulches by the enemies and we'd still be going in blind. Plus you know, the loudest assist of the party was three of us wearing black trenchcoats in modern day London.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ameraaaaaa View Post
    I'd say the golden advice. Talk to the gm. They are probably gonna help you there.

    Btw

    This is might pretty normal in dnd. But not necessarily every ttrpg. Iirc there's systems like blades in the dark where (correct me if I'm wrong) there's mechanics that make planning easier. And others.

    And even then not every group likes planning. It's a spectrum from no planning and spending multiple sessions planning but most people are in the middle.

    Back on topic talk to the gm. That's 1 of the best pieces of advice in the hobby.
    Yep, Blades in the Dark is a game about running heists, and rather than spending hours planning a heist it has a wonderful mechanic where you spend “stress points” to declare that you already prepared for a situation.

    Apocalypse World instructs you to “play your character like you’re driving a stolen car”.

    And even with D&D, some groups prefer to keep things rattling along rather than spend hours debating and planning. OP, I’ve been in your situation in the past and I ended up only staying in the group because the GM moved away and a different one took over whose style was more in line with my taste. But I would say speak to your whole group (not just the GM), tell them how you feel and see if you can reach a compromise of styles.

    And consider running a one-shot or even a campaign of your own for them once you feel confident to. I think it’s good for a group to rotate GMs, and to try out different games too. But obviously that’s longer term advice. For now I’d just say speak to the group about it.
    Last edited by HidesHisEyes; 2021-10-17 at 07:19 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wyoming

    Default Re: Current campaign doesn't feel great (long and complicated)

    This reminds me of the time I told my boss that many of the meetings we were going to were boring and dull.

    They told me, "What are you bringing to the meeting to make it better?

    That completely changed my approach to meetings.

    Instead of being a passive victim of the meeting, I came ready to ask questions, bring support material, and generally make sure we were all getting together to drive for a goal.

    This also changed the way I approached sitting down at the table for TTRPGs. I was ready with a few choice quips/quotes for my character, a goal my character was moving towards, and a few plans I wanted to put into play, and a definitive way I wanted to work with other characters. Then, my TTRPG hobby improved a lot too. I was not letting other drive my PCs actions, I was driving their actions.

    Maybe this will help, maybe it won't. It is also OK to not love every part of a 4 hour session. 4 hours is a long time!
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