The Batman - 2022

[Dr.Samurai]

Fair enough, but then where do we draw the line? Even the quintessential "boyscout" heroes like Supes or Spidey should have an astronomical body count if we're looking at things through the eyes of realism.

Hulk is killing people and destroying stuff, and that is, generally, directed at the bad guys.

But by virtue of being the Hulk, he destroys everything around him, which undoubtedly leads to civilian mortalities. The footage shown in Civil War is just Hulk jumping onto buildings and crashing through walls, and that masonry is falling on people that are completely not involved in the fight.

Spider-Man, on the other hand, is actively trying to save people and his actions are all with that aim in mind.

Hulk is aimed at bad guys and probably kills innocent people while he goes after the bad guys. Spider-Man has much more agency and discriminatory power. Spider-Man will be holding on to a dozen web threads trying to prevent people from getting hurt while taking punches to the face because his number one goal is to protect people.

I don't think we can throw our hands in the air and say "Hulk is like Spider-Man".

[Anteros]

Hulk is killing people and destroying stuff, and that is, generally, directed at the bad guys.

But by virtue of being the Hulk, he destroys everything around him, which undoubtedly leads to civilian mortalities. The footage shown in Civil War is just Hulk jumping onto buildings and crashing through walls, and that masonry is falling on people that are completely not involved in the fight.

Spider-Man, on the other hand, is actively trying to save people and his actions are all with that aim in mind.

Hulk is aimed at bad guys and probably kills innocent people while he goes after the bad guys. Spider-Man has much more agency and discriminatory power. Spider-Man will be holding on to a dozen web threads trying to prevent people from getting hurt while taking punches to the face because his number one goal is to protect people.

I don't think we can throw our hands in the air and say "Hulk is like Spider-Man".

Ok, but he still does stuff like webs manhole covers and slingshots them into thugs, or punching them so hard they fly into a car hard enough to cave it in. Those guys aren't ok. We're just drawing different arbitrary lines for where we're willing to suspend our disbelief.

[Eldan]

I actually think Marvel comics has at one point come out and said everyone in their universe is low-key superpowered, which is why they survive being thrown across the street and through a car relatively unharmed.

[Psyren]

Stop it. Just stop. You're accomplishing nothing by cherry picking words out of my statements and trying to twist my intent. I've already explicitly stated that I meant killing. I know you like to argue, but pick something else. I'm not going to keep circling with you while you claim I'm not saying the thing that I explicitly stated.

Yes, Hulk has hurt people unintentionally. Per Marvel, he has not killed innocents. Wanda has not only purposefully tortured innocents for extended periods of time, she is also a murderer. They are not the same.

I'm not saying they're the same. But she didn't murder anyone prior to MoM, when she was

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literally possessed/corrupted by an evil artifact.

Trying to judge them with the same yardstick is myopic at best.

If a bomb squad fails to defuse a bomb in a way that causes it to explode and harm people who otherwise would've been fine, yes they can be held liable for those deaths. And yes, if he was ever put under scrutiny of normal law, Batman too could be held liable for a huge list of negligent manslaughters and, probably, second degree murders - regardless of whether we're talking of the ill-defined comic book version or specific movie versions. Has there been, like, confusion over this?

There's a double-standard, certainly.

Fair enough, but then where do we draw the line? Even the quintessential "boyscout" heroes like Supes or Spidey should have an astronomical body count if we're looking at things through the eyes of realism.

No one's asking you to "draw a line." But at least try for some consistency in your judgements.

[Vahnavoi]

Talking of Spiderman in this context is rather hilarious, considering:

- his origin story is founded upon a person dying due to his negligence
- in several adaptions, he goes and gives a good shot at killing the guy who directly caused said death
- another famous story of his involves one of his loved ones dying because of his failed attempt to save them
- some less known storylines of his explicitly deal with morality of mercy killing
- he has killed several opponents, as accidents, in homicidal spider monster mode, and in self-defense
- has on-again-off-again bad reputation due to his various screw-ups and collateral damage caused by his vigilantism

So various retcons not withstanding, calling Petey a killer is just a statement of fact. You don't even need to put him under special realist scrutiny, because his stories often already put his motives and actions under scrutiny.

[Tyndmyr]

Fair enough, but then where do we draw the line? Even the quintessential "boyscout" heroes like Supes or Spidey should have an astronomical body count if we're looking at things through the eyes of realism.

Yes.

I mean, that shouldn't even be controversial if we're looking at stuff like Man of Steel, which has Superman straight punching Zod through skyscrapers and people dying pretty much en masse before he executes Zod. Calling Superman a killer doesn't require deep analysis.

Now, obviously, a lot of this depends on portrayal. Some portrayals are a lot more violent or murderhappy than others, but quite a lot of superheroes have had at least one portrayal that is fairly blood soaked.

[Dr.Samurai]

I am not sure where the comparison originally began between Hulk and Scarlett Witch and how we got to this point but... there is absolutely a difference between Spider-Man roughing up bad guys (if he even does, I don't recall this in the movies) and the Hulk accidentally, indiscriminately, and unknowingly killing innocent people (the same people he is supposed to be protecting) by virtue of hulking out.

I would not consider that an "arbitrary" line, nor would I include instances where Peter, who is learning the life lesson that is the impetus for him becoming a super-hero, lets a thief get away only to see that man murder his uncle. Nor would I include where Peter desperately tries to save his girlfriend and fails horrifically.

Like... an unstoppable force of destruction that can hardly restrain itself, thereby killing innocent people, is totally not the same as someone trying in earnest to do the right thing and sometimes failing, or someone hurting bad guys who are trying to hurt innocent people.

Edited to add: A lot of people had problems with Man of Steel precisely because of the insane amounts of destruction to the city and all of the obvious deaths Superman was contributing to without consideration.

[Jan Mattys]

Yes.

I mean, that shouldn't even be controversial if we're looking at stuff like Man of Steel, which has Superman straight punching Zod through skyscrapers and people dying pretty much en masse before he executes Zod. Calling Superman a killer doesn't require deep analysis.

Now, obviously, a lot of this depends on portrayal. Some portrayals are a lot more violent or murderhappy than others, but quite a lot of superheroes have had at least one portrayal that is fairly blood soaked.

Even if we look at the famous "World of Cardboard Speech" scene.

You know, the one where Superman goes "Me? I've got a different problem. I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die. But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am." and then proceeds to smash Darkseid multiple times through buildings in a crowded area causing untold property damage and likely thousands of deaths.

I always found that hilarious.

[Androgeus]

Even if we look at the famous "World of Cardboard Speech" scene.

You know, the one where Superman goes "Me? I've got a different problem. I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die. But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am." and then proceeds to smash Darkseid multiple times through buildings in a crowded area causing untold property damage and likely thousands of deaths.

I always found that hilarious.

It's fine, they're in the abandoned buildings district.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe he used his Silver Age powers of super-geometry to calculate the exact angle and force to punch Darkseid in a way that would hit nobody and not damage any load-bearing elements of the buildings.

[Precure]

Even if we look at the famous "World of Cardboard Speech" scene.

You know, the one where Superman goes "Me? I've got a different problem. I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die. But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am." and then proceeds to smash Darkseid multiple times through buildings in a crowded area causing untold property damage and likely thousands of deaths.

I always found that hilarious.

I thought that was the point? Darkside made him mad enough to cross that line.

[Fyraltari]

I thought that was the point? Darkside made him mad enough to cross that line.

Seems to me that the point was that Darkseid is resilient enough that he can strike with wild abandon for one, without fear of breaking his code.

[Anteros]

Maybe he used his Silver Age powers of super-geometry to calculate the exact angle and force to punch Darkseid in a way that would hit nobody and not damage any load-bearing elements of the buildings.

This is exactly what we're supposed to believe these characters are doing.

Of course it's ridiculous, but that's the kind of thing you have to accept when you consume media meant for small children as an adult.

[Psyren]

Or one of the League's umpteen speedsters and magic-users evacuated the area maybe?

[hungrycrow]

Hadn't an alien invasion been going on for a while before that fight happened? Sorta reasonable by cartoon logic that civilians would have evacuated the buildings by then.

[Jan Mattys]

Hadn't an alien invasion been going on for a while before that fight happened? Sorta reasonable by cartoon logic that civilians would have evacuated the buildings by then.

If you look a the youtube link I provided, civilians are definitely there. :)

[hungrycrow]

If you look a the youtube link I provided, civilians are definitely there. :)

There are civilians on the street watching Darkseid fly by. There aren't any where Darkseid lands, and we don't see inside the buildings.

[ecarden]

Real weird to use the Hulk as a comparator for Wanda as his absolute worst action in the MCU, Johannesburg, was directly the result of her mind controlling/illusionist him.

[Psyren]

Real weird to use the Hulk as a comparator for Wanda as his absolute worst action in the MCU, Johannesburg, was directly the result of her mind controlling/illusionist him.

If Wanda can be blamed for her actions being instigated by an evil book, Hulk can be blamed for his actions being instigated by an evil spell. In other words, either way they are dangerous weapons.

[Dragonus45]

If Wanda can be blamed for her actions being instigated by an evil book, Hulk can be blamed for his actions being instigated by an evil spell. In other words, either way they are dangerous weapons.

Wanda in MOM and especially in WandaVision had a significantly greater degree of agency then the Hulk had when she mind controlled him and used him as a tool to attempt to murder his friends and cause significant collateral damage. Stop giving her a pass for her bad actions.

[Psyren]

Stop giving her a pass for her bad actions.

I'm not giving her any kind of pass. I'm saying it's hypocritical to recognize her danger and no one else's.

[Dragonus45]

I'm not giving her any kind of pass. I'm saying it's hypocritical to recognize her danger and no one else's.

Only it's not, comparing the two is a clear false equivalency.

[Psyren]

Only it's not, comparing the two is a clear false equivalency.

Agree to disagree. Both are dangerous yet occasionally necessary, and both have been at various points on the antihero-villain scale depending on the story being told.

[Rodin]

The big difference I'd say is that Hulk simply wasn't around when Wanda started being treated like a threat. He went missing at the end of Age of Ultron. He missed the entirety of Civil War and was on another planet until mere hours before Thanos attacks. There's literally no time for the "Is Hulk too dangerous" argument to come up (other than being the single biggest event causing the Sokovia Accords which took place in his absence).

After Infinity War, Banner has the advantage of not being snapped. He has 5 years of off-camera time to deal with the Sokovia Accords, deal with the threat Hulk represents, and by the time we see him again he is effectively a different person. He isn't a superhero anymore, he's a scientist. After Endgame we still don't see him doing any superheroing - he goes back to sciencing it up. After Endgame, Wanda goes and enslaves a town.

Yes, they've been treated differently. I don't consider that treatment to be at all inconsistent in-universe based on what events they were present for and which characters they were around at the time.

[Dragonus45]

Agree to disagree. Both are dangerous yet occasionally necessary, and both have been at various points on the antihero-villain scale depending on the story being told.

Both also have two legs and breath oxygen. None of those vague ill defined points of comparison make Wanda any less an explicit on screen murderer.

[Psyren]

None of those vague ill defined points of comparison make Wanda any less an explicit on screen murderer.

I'm not denying she's a murderer now. (Which brings us back around to post #436. Whee.)

[Dragonus45]

I'm not denying she's a murderer now. (Which brings us back around to post #436. Whee.)

But you equate her on screen torture and murder with Hulks nonexistent accidental deaths that as far as we are told he has never caused.

[Tyndmyr]

I feel confident that the portrayal of Hulk chasing Black Widow in Avengers was meant to show mortal danger, and not, I dunno, the hulk yelling at her impolitely.

It also seems fairly obvious that everyone *does* treat Hulk as a threat when he is around.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think anyone is trying to claim the Hulk is not dangerous, or that he's not treated as such. Just that because we haven't seen him kill anyone onscreen, Marvel's official claim that he has never actually killed anyone offscreen can't be easily disproven despite how ludicrously unlikely it is.

[Psyren]

But you equate her on screen torture and murder with Hulks nonexistent accidental deaths that as far as we are told he has never caused.

I'm genuinely not sure what you're looking for. As of MoM,

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the version of her that did those things appears to be quite dead, and moreover she took out one of the most evil artifacts in the multiverse in the process along with her,

so continuing to call for her head on a pike doesn't really make sense to me. What should they have done differently prior to Westview and what could they do differently now?