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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I mean if my sword being in good condition when stabbing something was a concern I would call that a need even if it wasn't an emergency.
    For a concern to become a need generally means there are no possible alternatives. Usually there are other ways to stab someone, and many other ways to deal with someone besides stabbing too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There happens to be a fairly relevant situation on this very site!

    I would not call the pirates antagonistic there. They simple see the heroics as a normal thing that happens in the world so much that they can pass it off as "apocalypse of the week". There are many campaigns going on at any given point, apparently, and they don't want to be stuck with the bill. From their point of view, it's perfectly rational - the heroes want a service to save the day, they pay for that service. And the heroes, I should note, seem to agree.
    It is indeed rational - as was their decision to immediately back down once Bandana and Roy agreed on a reasonable price for their services. If she had instead demanded 2 million gold for each pirate, or selling Haley into slavery for the crew, that would have been an entirely different conversation.

    You'll note too that the one person who didn't consider the exchange reasonable - Andi - did end up being an antagonist, at least for a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It appears Batman has done his patented disappearing trick from this thread. Truly, he is a master of stealth.
    It just the forums has a problem with Redictio ad Bella Siderea, any discussion given enough time devolves into one about Star Wars.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There happens to be a fairly relevant situation on this very site!

    I would not call the pirates antagonistic there. They simple see the heroics as a normal thing that happens in the world so much that they can pass it off as "apocalypse of the week". There are many campaigns going on at any given point, apparently, and they don't want to be stuck with the bill. From their point of view, it's perfectly rational - the heroes want a service to save the day, they pay for that service. And the heroes, I should note, seem to agree.
    They're not antagonists, because an agreement was immediately reached. If there was a whole subplot about the Order steugfling to find a way to procure trnasportation to the North Pole, then a case could be made.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Redictio ad Bella Siderea
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    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-10-25 at 04:00 AM.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    It just the forums has a problem with Redictio ad Bella Siderea, any discussion given enough time devolves into one about Star Wars.
    I'm stealing that.

    Also, I'd like to point people towards the Injustice games as a model for what a DCCU could look like. Yes, it uses the worn-out old question of "What if Superman went bad?", but the second game especially strikes a really good balance between grim stuff happening and character development, and casually dropping in bits of unabashed cheese like Batman saying "I've got a mole in Gorilla City."
    Last edited by Azuresun; 2021-10-25 at 04:27 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    For a concern to become a need generally means there are no possible alternatives. Usually there are other ways to stab someone, and many other ways to deal with someone besides stabbing too.



    It is indeed rational - as was their decision to immediately back down once Bandana and Roy agreed on a reasonable price for their services. If she had instead demanded 2 million gold for each pirate, or selling Haley into slavery for the crew, that would have been an entirely different conversation.

    You'll note too that the one person who didn't consider the exchange reasonable - Andi - did end up being an antagonist, at least for a time.
    I wouldn't say they backed down as much as they got what they wanted, with was payment for their services. They had no reason to be unreasonable it, but they still were not moving until they you paid.

    Andy did object, but I would argue that's not because she disagreed with Bandanna's leadership generally and made up an excuse rather than actually believing the argument she made, and regardless, she was overruled there.
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    For a concern to become a need generally means there are no possible alternatives. Usually there are other ways to stab someone, and many other ways to deal with someone besides stabbing too.
    What an oddly specific use of the word to settle onto for no reason... other then that it supports your argument I guess.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    They're not antagonists, because an agreement was immediately reached. If there was a whole subplot about the Order steugfling to find a way to procure trnasportation to the North Pole, then a case could be made.
    Yes, exactly. The subplot is the key, and subplots like regular plots need goals, stakes, urgency. "I want to buy thing" "I'll sell thing for X" "Done, thanks!" has only one of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    What an oddly specific use of the word to settle onto for no reason... other then that it supports your argument I guess.
    Insisting that a need be something you need is oddly specific? Okay sure
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm assuming the protagonist has a brain and thus articulates their need to the character withholding said need.
    You added the Villain. You added that the Villain is going to kill everyone including the merchant. And you added that the merchant knows all this. I can write 100 stories about a hero who needs a sword without those elements.

    You seem to be saying that every character in a story is either a protagonist or antagonist which simply isn't true. The vast majority of characters in almost anything I can think of are neither. Unless it's a story with two people in it. What is the definition of antagonist you are using? Because it doesn't align with the definitions I know.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    The vast majority of characters in almost anything I can think of are neither. Unless it's a story with two people in it. What is the definition of antagonist you are using? Because it doesn't align with the definitions I know.
    Wikipedia is to be taken with a grain of salt with everything, but you might be surprised that it says this:

    Characters may be antagonists without being evil – they may simply be injudicious and unlikeable for the audience. In some stories, such as The Catcher in the Rye, almost every character other than the protagonist may be an antagonist.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    You added the Villain. You added that the Villain is going to kill everyone including the merchant. And you added that the merchant knows all this. I can write 100 stories about a hero who needs a sword without those elements.
    I added the... actually here, I'll just quote you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    Conversation:
    Hero: I need to buy a sword.
    Merchant: 100gp please.
    Hero: I only have 50gp.
    Merchant: Sorry, can't help you.
    Hero: But I need it to kill a villain and save everyone's lives.
    Merchant: Sorry, 100gp please.
    Trafalgar, If you can't even remember your own scenario then discussing it is going to be beyond farcical. Is the Merchant not part of "everyone?" Does explicitly telling him not constitute him knowing?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Uh....guys? Any chance we can get back to discussing Batman? I'm not sure what the current argument is about, but the word Batman is featured exactly once in the last 25 posts, and only to comment on how he's not actually in the topic anymore.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Uh....guys? Any chance we can get back to discussing Batman? I'm not sure what the current argument is about, but the word Batman is featured exactly once in the last 25 posts, and only to comment on how he's not actually in the topic anymore.
    I believe this tangent started as a broader discussion of what sorts of movie the DCEU should be trying to make, instead of "dark and gritty Batman breaks mook limbs in alleys take #47." (There, I said "Batman" )
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Discussion of the trailer was exhausted several pages back because nobody is actually excited by it enough to speculate on the movie it represents.

    So a discussion of why that is and what might make people excited to see a trailer for a DC movie again (that aren't the words "James Gunn" somewhere on it) is actually on topic.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    On the subject of which, I would be tempted by a live action attempt at "What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way"/"Superman vs The Elite". Actually compare an optimistic version of Supes against the gritty fare that the last few Batman/Superman/BVS films have been.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Discussion of the trailer was exhausted several pages back because nobody is actually excited by it enough to speculate on the movie it represents.
    I mean I am, Hot Topic Robbert Pattinson is 100000000% my jam as a Batman. I just lost the energy to fight uphill against the metaphorical haters on this one.
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    On the subject of which, I would be tempted by a live action attempt at "What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way"/"Superman vs The Elite". Actually compare an optimistic version of Supes against the gritty fare that the last few Batman/Superman/BVS films have been.
    That prompted me to imagine how the Zack Snyder version of it would utterly miss the point. Thanks for that!

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    To be honest the original misses the point as well.

    It tries to critique The Elite for imposing their will through superior power, but just has Superman eventually do the same to them. So ultimately its intended critique is just hypocritical because its critique isn't "someone else might be stronger than you eventually" but "this thing you are doing is bad, but I'm going to win by doing it as well so maybe you're actually right?".

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    To be honest the original misses the point as well.

    It tries to critique The Elite for imposing their will through superior power, but just has Superman eventually do the same to them. So ultimately its intended critique is just hypocritical because its critique isn't "someone else might be stronger than you eventually" but "this thing you are doing is bad, but I'm going to win by doing it as well so maybe you're actually right?".
    I mean to me, it has nothing to with strength, more like Superman is showing by example what happens when he doesn't have the morality. How scary and terrifying it all becomes if supers don't hold themselves to the standards they do. Basically he pulls a superhero version of scaring them straight by for a second demonstrating what he could be if he wasn't so nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean to me, it has nothing to with strength, more like Superman is showing by example what happens when he doesn't have the morality. How scary and terrifying it all becomes if supers don't hold themselves to the standards they do. Basically he pulls a superhero version of scaring them straight by for a second demonstrating what he could be if he wasn't so nice.
    Doesn't he lobotomize the Elite's leader at the end, though, or at least laser-beam out the part that gives him superpowers?

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Doesn't he lobotomize the Elite's leader at the end, though, or at least laser-beam out the part that gives him superpowers?
    From the DC Wiki on Manchester Black:
    Superman then disabled the Englishman by using his x-ray vision to locate an unusual growth on Black's brain. He identified the growth as the source of Black's powers, and then carefully fired a thin burst of heat vision through Black's retinas and told Black that he had cut out the growth (he had actually given Black a micro-concussion that left him temporarily powerless).

    Faced with the apparent loss of his powers, Black actually wept, hypocritically appalled that Superman had seemingly adopted the lethal tactics he and the Elite had spent so much time advocating. Superman then revealed to the powerless Black that the rest of the Elite were only unconscious, he had not removed anything from Black's brain, and that murdering opponents makes a hero no better than his enemies. Furious, Black declared that by not killing him, Superman had guaranteed that as long as Black was alive, he would come after Superman again and again, but Superman calmly replied that he would not want it any other way, and that dreams like the ones he gave to Earth were what made life worth living.
    So technically yes, but also no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean to me, it has nothing to with strength, more like Superman is showing by example what happens when he doesn't have the morality. How scary and terrifying it all becomes if supers don't hold themselves to the standards they do. Basically he pulls a superhero version of scaring them straight by for a second demonstrating what he could be if he wasn't so nice.
    Well yeah, but all that does is demonstrate that their methods are effective because that's what they do to everyone else. He has the power to impose his will and he does, even if he's bluffing about what he would actually do.

    In order to make the point it wanted to it would have needed Superman to demonstrate that his idealist approach achieved superior results without needing to adopt the methods of The Elite.

    The concept of "Superman shows a better way to a gritty superhero world" is good, but "What's so funny about..." isn't a good execution of it because he doesn't do it by being Superman, he does it by convincing The Elite he's a bigger ******* than they are.

    Superman should win by being a better man, not by being more super.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-10-30 at 02:42 PM.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Well yeah, but all that does is demonstrate that their methods are effective because that's what they do to everyone else. He has the power to impose his will and he does, even if he's bluffing about what he would actually do.

    In order to make the point it wanted to it would have needed Superman to demonstrate that his idealist approach achieved superior results without needing to adopt the methods of The Elite.

    The concept of "Superman shows a better way to a gritty superhero world" is good, but "What's so funny about..." isn't a good execution of it because he doesn't do it by being Superman, he does it by convincing The Elite he's a bigger ******* than they are.

    Superman should win by being a better man, not by being more super.
    Superman does not have to demonstrate his idealist approach in this story because has spent his entire career demonstrating his idealist approach. The Elite are mocking him for it, so in the end he demonstrates what happens when you have a thug imposing his will instead of an idealist trying to change things.
    Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2021-10-30 at 02:49 PM.
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    I just wanted to share this because the internet can be a creepy place. This was on my youtube feed not 5 seconds after I read the latest argument on this topic. No I dont watch these clips
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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Superman does not have to demonstrate his idealist approach in this story because has spent his entire career demonstrating his idealist approach. The Elite are mocking him for it, so in the end he demonstrates what happens when you have a thug imposing his will instead of an idealist trying to change things.
    Yeah, he demonstrates that it gets results quickly and easily.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Yeah, he demonstrates that it gets results quickly and easily.
    No, he demonstrates that when you have a superpowered thug imposing his will, it gets terrifying very quickly. Which is why he (Superman) doesn't work that way.

    He sets up the illusion that he is doing it to bring home to Manchester Black exactly how morally bankrupt his position is, and indeed Black is crying like a baby when it appears to happen to him.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    No, he demonstrates that when you have a superpowered thug imposing his will, it gets terrifying very quickly. Which is why he (Superman) doesn't work that way.

    He sets up the illusion that he is doing it to bring home to Manchester Black exactly how morally bankrupt his position is, and indeed Black is crying like a baby when it appears to happen to him.
    Yes, and to the audience it shows that bullying your opponent into submission makes you win.

    Which is the opposite of what it wanted.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Yes, and to the audience it shows that bullying your opponent into submission makes you win.

    Which is the opposite of what it wanted.
    Really? Because the clip linked above shows the exact opposite of what you are saying: People are terrified until they realise Superman was faking it.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    But at that point it doesn’t matter. Superman has achieved victory through the fear of superior force.

    The methods of The Elite are vindicated, Superman is merely better at using them because he has the greater force available.

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    Default Re: The Batman - 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    But at that point it doesn’t matter. Superman has achieved victory through the fear of superior force.

    The methods of The Elite are vindicated, Superman is merely better at using them because he has the greater force available.
    The question wasn't whether or not Superman could win, it was whether it was better for the public for him to use any means necessary to stop crime. The fight is only demonstrating to the public that a Superman who uses whatever methods he feels like is actually terrifying.

    I don't think Superman is trying to convince the elites in that scene; he knows that they're just jerks pretending to be heroes. That's why he ends up permanently disabling Manchester Black's powers. He cares more about the public knowing why he doesn't kill villains for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    The question wasn't whether or not Superman could win, it was whether it was better for the public for him to use any means necessary to stop crime. The fight is only demonstrating to the public that a Superman who uses whatever methods he feels like is actually terrifying.

    I don't think Superman is trying to convince the elites in that scene; he knows that they're just jerks pretending to be heroes. That's why he ends up permanently disabling Manchester Black's powers. He cares more about the public knowing why he doesn't kill villains for them.
    Yeah, but that wasn’t the point the comic was trying to make. It was a response to The Authority specifically, the idea that superheroes could make the world do what they wanted through superior power. Showing that that was actually a bad thing.

    The way to respond to that if you don’t like it isn’t to show that it’s scary to people it is used against but it works, because everyone will imagine it being used against “the right people” it’s to show that it doesn’t work.

    Outside of the realm of superheroes for a moment, there’s a series called Lost Fleet which is set at the tail end of a century long war where the protagonist is a mythical hero found in cryosleep who is horrified to find that atrocities against civilians have become commonplace because they are “necessary to win”, but the series shows that all those things that were necessary to win never actually brought victory and doing the opposite, being professional and fighting according to the laws of war is actually an advantage. That makes the point that What’s so Funny About… wanted to far more effectively because the better path is the one that actually brings victory not just being better at being vicious.

    Superman just defeats The Elite by being more super than them, not by being more human. In his best stories his humanity is his greatest strength.

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