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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Or wizards casting mage armor on themselves to have a decent AC? Or bards spending bardic inspiration to help someone make saves? Etc.

    Team games are team games. Selfish "but my DPR!" attitudes are bad for the game.
    "But how will I top the damage charts?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralanr View Post
    "But how will I top the damage charts?!"
    Spoiler: Rant
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    I think DPS meters and associated "gear score" addons are absolute cancer for MMOs. I'm very grateful that FFXIV (the main MMO I play) has a "mods aren't allowed but we won't really check. But harrassing someone over their DPS is quickly bannable." policy that they enforce fairly heavily.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    I don't agree, but no reason we need to. Mechanically I'd treat that as a +3 weapon, the rest is descriptive.

    Given that HP doesn't translate as a health bar so much as near misses, heroic "Getting out of the way to only take a scratch on the armor, etc.

    Mechanically if someone crits with a generic +3 weapon and as the DM I have it cut off a hand. The weapon does double damage and I'd describe it cleaving the limb and the spray of red, etc.

    Mechanically if there were a Shardblade in my game and the same scenario happened, it'd still deal double damage and I'd describe the clothing and armor of the limb sliding off with that anime precision cut while the limb itself now just hangs there, gray and lifeless, unresponsive the the person it belongs to.
    For fighting creatures, sure, but that still is vastly shortselling their use against inanimate objects. A +3 weapon doesn't do nearly the damage a shardblade should, even if it just flat-out ignores all damage thresholds, to, say, a stone wall.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    For fighting creatures, sure, but that still is vastly shortselling their use against inanimate objects. A +3 weapon doesn't do nearly the damage a shardblade should, even if it just flat-out ignores all damage thresholds, to, say, a stone wall.
    Honestly, I think it'd be fun to work out the 5e stats for a full Shardblade.

    But keep in mind the Cosmere has some weird interactions that are fully consistent in world but.. wierd.

    Like, yeah, flavor wise a Shardblade will casually cut through Hardened steel like a knife through butter...

    But it won't penetrate aluminum. At all..

    It also meets resistance against things with heavy investiture. Now we need to decide. Are Mithral and Adamantite just Harder metals? Or are they hard because they've absorbed ambient magic from something or set with a certain level of magic by the creators of a world?

    I would honestly LOVE to see Cosmere in general brought over to 5e. Wonder what a Mistborn can do with those same semi magic metals?

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Spoiler: Rant
    Show

    I think DPS meters and associated "gear score" addons are absolute cancer for MMOs. I'm very grateful that FFXIV (the main MMO I play) has a "mods aren't allowed but we won't really check. But harrassing someone over their DPS is quickly bannable." policy that they enforce fairly heavily.
    Can’t say I disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    "Just because the DM lets you break the game, doesn't mean the game is broken."
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "My Patron is Steven Spielberg"
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    For some reason this feels really fitting; I got a mental image of a bunch of psions setting up a LAN party.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    Honestly, I think it'd be fun to work out the 5e stats for a full Shardblade.

    But keep in mind the Cosmere has some weird interactions that are fully consistent in world but.. wierd.

    Like, yeah, flavor wise a Shardblade will casually cut through Hardened steel like a knife through butter...

    But it won't penetrate aluminum. At all..

    It also meets resistance against things with heavy investiture. Now we need to decide. Are Mithral and Adamantite just Harder metals? Or are they hard because they've absorbed ambient magic from something or set with a certain level of magic by the creators of a world?

    I would honestly LOVE to see Cosmere in general brought over to 5e. Wonder what a Mistborn can do with those same semi magic metals?
    WE have examples of genuinely magical metals in Mistborn, actually. Atium and Lerasium. They did have unique and very powerful properties.

    Whether Mithril and Adamantine would qualify as "magical metals" that have investiture or anti-investiture properties sufficient to interfere with Shardblades is something that the conversion writer would have to determine; we don't have the right kind of info about them in 5e canon.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    I get the feeling that the folks with the "I shouldn't have to cast my spell to make the Barb do normal damage." Are the types who also don't understand the sheer joy of playing an Abjuration specialist or a Lore Bard with Counterspell.

    The sheer level of "I shut down the enemy's entire magic" is just fun, but it ends up looking like you're Not doing anything."

    Like, Geez, why should I want to Counterspell the BBEG's teleport so he can't escape and regroup? Everyone else is getting to attack and do damage, I'm just wasting my turn.
    I know that feeling. I was in a game where we had to fight the BBEG inside a humongous gelatinous cube. That meant slowed movement and acid damage each round, especially for my barbarian. I could not reach the BBEG. It was not my character's finest moment in battle, but he was at least hanging in there surviving. I was not to have the spotlight this combat, and that was ok metagame speaking. The cleric had the brilliant idea to cast Wall of Fire inside the cube. That cleared space to allow me to move freely and not take damage, to get closer to the BBEG. Meanwhile other spellcasters in the party were able to attack the BBEG directly, and the shadow monk who could teleport. The cleric player got jealous and wanted his own glory. He stopped concentrating on Wall of Fire so he could cast a concentration spell on the BBEG, who made the saving throw so no effect. Gone was the freedom of movement I had. Back came the acid damage every round. We were 11th level having started at 3rd. It would be the second time in the entire campaign I would drop in battle, the first being at 6th level in an unlucky saving throw against a banshee.

    There would be other games where players felt useless because they were buffing or concentrating on a spell that made the battle terrain in our favor instead of directly attacking the bad guys. I always tell them how important it is to what they're doing. Maintain that concentration. We need it. I don't care if they Dodge forever and move away from the battlefield. Keep that spell going. You're contributing. You're doing your job so we can do ours.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    I get the feeling that the folks with the "I shouldn't have to cast my spell to make the Barb do normal damage." Are the types who also don't understand the sheer joy of playing an Abjuration specialist or a Lore Bard with Counterspell.

    The sheer level of "I shut down the enemy's entire magic" is just fun, but it ends up looking like you're Not doing anything."

    Like, Geez, why should I want to Counterspell the BBEG's teleport so he can't escape and regroup? Everyone else is getting to attack and do damage, I'm just wasting my turn.
    I dunno...I adore Lore Bards with Counterspell, and I enjoy Abjuration Wizards, but I am still of the opinion that I can use my Concentration on better spells then Magic Weapon. Why improve a single player when I can improve the entire party's effectiveness, or completely shut down an enemy? Sure that Barbarian is gonna hit harder, but a small boost to everyone will out-damage the single buffed Barbarian and make everyone feel powerful.
    Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane

    Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D


  9. - Top - End - #189
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    I get the feeling that the folks with the "I shouldn't have to cast my spell to make the Barb do normal damage." Are the types who also don't understand the sheer joy of playing an Abjuration specialist or a Lore Bard with Counterspell.

    The sheer level of "I shut down the enemy's entire magic" is just fun, but it ends up looking like you're Not doing anything."

    Like, Geez, why should I want to Counterspell the BBEG's teleport so he can't escape and regroup? Everyone else is getting to attack and do damage, I'm just wasting my turn.
    Worth nothing that Counterspell is a Reaction, and doesn't require Concentration, so you are obviously not wasting your turn.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    As for "team play" and such, many Concentration spells are not actually damage spells so saying that it's all about "muh DPR" is incorrect. It's just about having more interesting options to concentrate on. Magic Weapon is just boring "you get to do normal damage now" spell that everybody knows will not be needed if we get a +1 weapon for the fighter, so it's obviously a far more preferable solution.

    If you want to talk about being selfish, isn't it selfish for the Fighter to expect Wizard to use his Concentration on his personal DPR, instead of some spell like Slow or Hypnotic Pattern that would benefit the whole party?

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: I feel like +X items do more harm than good, especially in bounded accuracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuu Lightwing View Post
    As for "team play" and such, many Concentration spells are not actually damage spells so saying that it's all about "muh DPR" is incorrect. It's just about having more interesting options to concentrate on. Magic Weapon is just boring "you get to do normal damage now" spell that everybody knows will not be needed if we get a +1 weapon for the fighter, so it's obviously a far more preferable solution.

    If you want to talk about being selfish, isn't it selfish for the Fighter to expect Wizard to use his Concentration on his personal DPR, instead of some spell like Slow or Hypnotic Pattern that would benefit the whole party?
    If you play with only 1 encounter/long rest then Slow or Hypnotic Pattern are probably going to be the superior spells because they're 3rd level and you don't need to worry about running out of them.

    It sounds like you're playing Combat As Performance (which I suspect is most of the people here).

    There are 2 types of CaP - A performance to show cooperation between party members and a performance to show competition. This board is full of the latter I imagine.

    So under this paradigm, yes you could say that it is unfair for one character to do more in a combat than another because the point of the combat is to show who is the coolest or most powerful character.

    Which spells or options are best come entirely down to how the game is played at the table. I play with many encounters per long rest, combat is not purely performative, and on average the party finds their first magic weapon during level 7 (but could be as late as 11).

    So I have a different view of Magic Weapon than people do who play entirely differently. My view comes from playing closely to the baseline rules of the game though and so when I say that Magic Weapon is a great spell I'm saying that in relation to the baseline assumptions of the game. If we want to change those then spell rankings are going to move around, sometimes dramatically.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

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